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Amino-Alkaloids of Sacred Cacti

Cacti tend to react poorly to sodium, it is believed by some that the calcium signaling pathways of plants originated as a sodium detoxification system. So it could certainly stress them, if that is what you desire.

You could do a seawater spray experiment and see if it makes a difference.
 
Since the molecule weight of mescaline is 211.262

And N has a molecular weight of 14.006, which goes into 211.261 about 15.083 times.

Then mescaline is about 6.6% nitrogen.

So a gram of mescaline has about 66 mg elemental nitrogen in it.

Incidentally, most of mescaline is carbon, cacti can get from the air. About a quarter of mescaline is oxygen. Hydrogen only makes up a little bit more of the weight than nitrogen does Oxygen and hydrogen can come from water, but oxygen can also come from the air.

However, generally speaking, nitrogen comes largely from absorption by the roots. It is a primary limiting factor for plant growth as well, because it is used for proteins, as well as protoalkaloids like tyramines and mescaline. As mentioned above it is also a component of chlorophyll. Magnesium is as well.

Some San Pedro cacti are notoriously heavy feeders and respond very well to cal-mag fertilizers with plenty of N. They can have absurdly fast growth rates, in some cases as well. The old way of using a fish or other thing to feed the earth where a plant was planted so that she would use her power to make the plant grow, in the old belief set from the San Pedro using cultures, also provides plenty of N, P, K Ca, Mg and trace minerals.

The old method is to break apart the living earth and create a hole, the mouth of the Earth, it needs to be widened so it is ripped open further, allowing it to be fed, so the sacrifice, often just a fish, is placed in and then covered up. The ancient proof of this was that after the plants grew, if one dug up the remains of the sacrifice, they appear consumed by the Earth. If one does not feed the Earth, she often didn't make the plants grow. This was part of the sign that the Earth was hungry for blood and death in exchange for feeding and caring for people. This also explained, in a way, why she created so many things that kill. However for our purposes here the agricultural significance of the teachings apply, because we know that decomposition does feed plants.

San Pedro cacti respond well to things like bone and blood meal, or fish meal. You don't have to kill anything yourself to feed the plants and feeding the soil so the soil feeds the plants, using organic materials, is tried and true. You can also use synthetic fertilizers, I tend to do so with seedlings. It's convenient.

I recommend feeding San Pedro cacti something. They need fertile conditions to show you what they have been bred to do by thousands of years of cultivation.
 
Nutrients are important for growth obviously but Nitrogen doesn't directly aid in the formation of Mescaline is what I am saying.

This paper is what I base most on ... "Proto-alkaloids, or simple alkaloids, are amines derived from amino acids but do not have a nitrogen heterocycle" it goes through showing the pathways used and the original tyrosine which it the starting molecule is made thru shikimate pathway.

I may be completely off base but I've noticed from my own small scale that minimal fertilization doesn't effect production of mescaline. Again with 'true' alkaloids if you increase nitrogen it directly increases alkaloids content but haven't found any cases where this is true with proto alkaloids.

Again I may be completely wrong. I look forward to your future posts I like your perspective and approach to this
 
It appears that I am, in this particular situation, unable to properly convey my intended point about protoalkaloids and plant nutrition.

Hopefully my word use won't entirely obfuscate my point to other readers in the future.

Mescaline has nitrogen in it.
Plants do not make nitrogen.
It can only be absorbed.

If you do not feed the plant nitrogen, what will it make mescaline out of?

And yes, a plant has many amino acids, that are like tyramines, they are called amino acids because they contain an amine group, just like mescaline does. An amine group has N or nitrogen in it. The plant needs to absorb N to grow, as well as to make mescaline or other molecules that have N in them

And from another perspective... imagine that you have a plant you feed and one you don't. After a couple years, the plant you fed weighs 50lbs and has many feet of growth. The plant you did not feed grew a couple inches and weighs barely more than it did when you planted it, maybe 3-4 lbs. Now, let's say you are right and that stressed plants are more potent.

So you have two identical plants, one is a bit more potent and weighs 4 lbs. The other is, let's say half as strong, but weighs 50lbs. What would have more total alkaloid? 50lbs of weaker plant or 4lbs of stronger? If you think about this you will know how people in the past could get ounces of mescaline from the PC clone. The thing is, as well, some fast growing plants are quite strong and some slow growers aren't. Heterosis doesn't just exist for growth rates, it affects protoalkaloid production as well.

If your intention was to produce mescaline, a faster clone of lower potency, when fed well, will always produce more than a slow growing potent clone that has been poorly fed.

Perhaps my point is still obscure, but don't have anything left to add about this topic. I'm not really interested personally in obtaining large amounts of mescaline as fast as I can, but certainly I am familiar with strategies that can accomplish that.
 
It appears that I am, in this particular situation, unable to properly convey my intended point about protoalkaloids and plant nutrition.

Hopefully my word use won't entirely obfuscate my point to other readers in the future.

Mescaline has nitrogen in it.
Plants do not make nitrogen.
It can only be absorbed.

If you do not feed the plant nitrogen, what will it make mescaline out of?

And yes, a plant has many amino acids, that are like tyramines, they are called amino acids because they contain an amine group, just like mescaline does. An amine group has N or nitrogen in it. The plant needs to absorb N to grow, as well as to make mescaline or other molecules that have N in them

And from another perspective... imagine that you have a plant you feed and one you don't. After a couple years, the plant you fed weighs 50lbs and has many feet of growth. The plant you did not feed grew a couple inches and weighs barely more than it did when you planted it, maybe 3-4 lbs. Now, let's say you are right and that stressed plants are more potent.

So you have two identical plants, one is a bit more potent and weighs 4 lbs. The other is, let's say half as strong, but weighs 50lbs. What would have more total alkaloid? 50lbs of weaker plant or 4lbs of stronger? If you think about this you will know how people in the past could get ounces of mescaline from the PC clone. The thing is, as well, some fast growing plants are quite strong and some slow growers aren't. Heterosis doesn't just exist for growth rates, it affects protoalkaloid production as well.

If your intention was to produce mescaline, a faster clone of lower potency, when fed well, will always produce more than a slow growing potent clone that has been poorly fed.

Perhaps my point is still obscure, but don't have anything left to add about this topic. I'm not really interested personally in obtaining large amounts of mescaline as fast as I can, but certainly I am familiar with strategies that can accomplish that.
IDK maybe were both trying to explain different topics lol

Completely agree with your idea that even weaker cactus will surpass the stronger one after a certain biomass point. I've made a chart in the past to illustrate that exact idea.


Now going back to your original post trying to get back on the topic you intended

...

From my research the main purpose of secondary alkaloids is for the reasons you state in the second post.

"Each molecule of mescaline can store three molecules of oxygen, as well as a molecule of nitrogen. Under conditions which are likely to cause the breakdown of chlorophyll, alkaloid+ cacti frequently produce alkaloids and then when conditions improve they then convert the alkaloids back into other less stable products like chlorophyll. However if conditions do not improve the cacti eventually exhaust their alkaloid supply in a last effort to endure and eventually die."

I agree here but from my understanding the ROS and other stressors are what the plant has to eliminate to prevent cell damage like you mentioned. But from what I understood the plant makes alkaloids as a form of antioxidant and it produces them to counter the oxidation from ROS. But I don't think the alkaloids supply depletion is the reason for the eventual death but rather the plant has reached its genetic limitation and can no longer combat the damage at a fast enough rate or simply don't have enough reserves to form anymore. The alkaloids are simply the side products of the enzymes and other reactions to attempt to reach equilibrium of the plant while not destroying anything or releasing excess. After better conditions return the plant uses the alkaloids and other side products in reverse conditions to replenish reserves and continue functioning/growing.

I think I may have just misunderstood your take on the general topic but specifically in relation to Nitrogen to increase alkaloids directly I've seen repeated many times but tend to link to tobacco or other true alkaloid as proof. Or older publications which sometimes were misread/quoted which when I've looked up original sources were off by an entire decimal point since it was a poor quality scan.


Sorry if I ran your thread too much off topic. Again I like how much effort and research you put into your posts. Look forward to what you post next :)
 
But from what I understood the plant makes alkaloids as a form of antioxidant and it produces them to counter the oxidation from ROS.
That is a possibility.

I definitely believe it possible that tyramine series protoalkaloids including mescaline serve potential roles as part of an oxygen detoxification system.

However I believe this may be overly simplistic.

Mescaline is, for example, a mitotic spindle inhibitor and because it is essentially a novel amino acid, it can interfere with cellular processing for organisms that lack the ability to process tyramines or at least prevent them from reaching vital components and organs via barriers, like the human brain barrier.

Tyramine can serve as ROS oxygen storage systems and protective molecules as well as energy and molecular storage system molecules.

None of these roles are mutually exclusive.

Mescaline itself can even, today, serve as a chemical attractant ensuring propagation by a partner species. It's a type of symbiosis. I'm talking about people, of course.

But I don't think the alkaloids supply depletion is the reason for the eventual death but rather the plant has reached its genetic limitation and can no longer combat the damage at a fast enough rate or simply don't have enough reserves to form anymore.
That could be the case.

I think that they eventually starve to death.
I could be wrong and you could be right or we could both be right, I think, but it's difficult to do cellular autopsies or post mortem examinations and find a cause of death.

I do have, for all intents and purposes, specimens of alkaloid free San Pedro cacti, bred and selected carefully. They seem, as cuttings, to not live nearly so long as those that have alkaloids.

So the alkaloids may offer some advantage that facilitates longer endurance of adverse situations.

The alkaloids are simply the side products of the enzymes and other reactions to attempt to reach equilibrium of the plant while not destroying anything or releasing excess

That is entirely possible.

But they appear to be stored, transported, metabolized and have enzymatic diversity, all while conforming to a fairly narrow range of tyramines, which are known to have multiple biological properties and impacts upon cellular and viral metabolism.

They also co-occur with large masses that contain considerable nutrients and water.

In San Pedro type cacti the alkaloids appear to help the plants endure cold season conditions that could cause rot.

In Peyote and it's close relatives like Turbinicarpus the plants can spend considerable time below ground or even under water in some cases and again, and we also find tyramine alkaloids.

I find it tenable, that the alkaloids serve roles as cellular protectants as well as storage molecules that allow sugar-like components to be sequestered into forms that potentially confer advantages in specific environments. I think that the idea that they are enzymatic side products is tenable for their original debue in nature, but I believe that was an aquatic environment as well, and that it was also more than half a billion years ago when tyramines likely first emerged.

They appear to be a synapomorphy shared by plants and marine algae that descended from the single celled ancestors of plants and that algae. That is a trait shared by the descendents of a common ancestor, a synapomorphy.

However, as mentioned, tyramines also occur in mammals and other animals, as well as the close animal relatives, the filament bodied fungi. This indicates that these protoalkaloids are a synapomorphy for all of these phyla meaning that the tyramines appear to have existed in the shared ancestors of all of these lineages. That's primordial, over five hundred million years ago.

Since then, I think the roles that tyramines have in nature is complex and varied to some degree, but that we find larger quantities of them in organisms that live in aquatic environments or in organisms that spend much of their year in cold and wet conditions and or withdrawn into the ground. Even the primordial environment where these molecules appear to have first emerged on Earth; is aquatic.

So, I believe that tyramines have long served roles as specific types of protectant molecules. Plants store them in vacuoles and transport them in vesicles between cells. Our brains also transport them in vesicles between cells as signal molecules. That also speaks to the nature and situation of their evolution and primordial biological roles. But, in single celled organisms, which didn't communicate by versicles with tyramines. The molecules are separated from the cytoplasm and cells can, theoretically store, metabolise and or excrete them. They seem to store and metabolise them, despite the tyramine salts being water soluble.

Single celled flagellated primordial organisms in an aquatic environment don't have the largest range of behaviors. For photosynthetic life, rising and sinking in response to light, mating and avoiding being ingested are the primary activities, for predatory life it is similar, but without photosynthesis and in terms of following food. There is also dormancy as a potential activity.

Photosynthetic life has need of storage of energy, all life does. If it can store it in a way that protects it, that is all the better. It seems that tyramines did this in the ancient aquatic environment that i suspect they originated in and it appears to me that in cacti and marine algae, even in the roots of barley, that the tyramine alkaloids still serve this type of role, more than five hundred billion years later.

But, certainly, I could be wrong.
 
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I mentioned vesicle transport of monoamines, which may not be familiar to everyone here, but it plays roles in the metabolism of protoalkaloids like tyramines as well as the pharmacology of various psychedelic molecules in our species.


Below, an excerpt.

VMATs function by loading monoamines—dopamine, serotonin, histamine, norepinephrine, and epinephrine—into transport vesicles.[11] VMATs use the same transport mechanism for all types of monoamines,[5] and transport them from the cytosol into high-concentration storage vesicles

VMAT is Vesicular Monoamine Transporter.

Vesicles are used for this type of transport and segregation of monoamines from cytosol even in plants. Vacuoles are used as cellular storage sites as well. In cells that use monoamines, they appear fairly well controlled and directed.

I might also offer than plants have a sort of intelligence, that they originate from the same single celled flagella bearing ancestors that we did and that all eukaryotic cellular life is fundamentally similar in broad ways. Nature is beyond clever, I think. Plants sense and respond to their environment in surprising ways. They appear to pass down memories of this to offspring and allows gradual responsive adaptations. That is another subject itself, one that can be discussed extensively, which I would rather not get too into here, but basically I believe that plants are underestimated in terms of their awareness and intelligence. Not in a new age way where plants have souls or spirits, but in a way that they are less accidental in their approaches than one might think.

Allow me to share an example, as off topic as it is.

Some plants have their genitals, aka flowers, resemble horny insects, using shape, color and even scent. This serves as an attractant, the plant tricks the insects into helping it mate, using the mating instincts of insects themselves. As I mentioned, plants can sense their environment, when their stomata absorb gas, trace amounts of things like insect pheromones are absorbed too.

Insects mating on or near the plants would show the plants that the odor is associated with visitation and copulation activity where one insect with pheromones, on a leaf, attracted another and this occurs numerous times. The plants adapted responsively. They didn't just get lucky and have a wasp like flower that smelled like a horny insect that just happened to live in the neighborhood.

There is very strong evidence that they have a remarkable intelligence but one that is very different from our own. Like I wrote, it is its own topic altogether. Plant intelligence is underestimated, like most cellular intelligence and awareness is.

I consider plants a type of animal life, of a sort. But then I have a very different perspective than most people and somewhat different ways of thinking about the world. My perspective is likely incompatible with that of some people, especially philosophy majors, it seems, who often find me triggering. For this, I apologize.

Still, it is my hope that those people who are interested in psychedelic science and anthropology might find my perspective at least amusing to consider.
 
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I suppose one could say, that some cells appears to use tools in ways like complex complex organisms do, but instead of crafting them from stones, metals, woods and other things they encounter, they craft them from molecules based on things they encounter, in their own way.

Even F plasmid conjugation in bacteria can be seen as a cultural transmission of information in a population, a passing of technology through a communication of a set of instructions in a community. This set of instructions includes information telling the bacteria how to make equipment for conjugation. One might see that equipment as a form of tool.

Plants appear to have a situational awareness that is transmitted to offspring. Heritable memory that affects the behavior of offspring. This is also something that is primordial. To develop any type of behavior, cells need to develop heritable memory, this allows them to communicate instructions to the next generation, instructions for how to make and operate the cells and other things like, when to run from something that wants to eat them, or when to chase something they want to eat, or when to go towards light, or when to go dormant. All of these behaviors require heritable memory, passed down via genetic components.

Plants display some forms of environmental awareness as well as heritable memory transmission, that allow them to gradually adapt over time to their environments. This plays a major role in the diversity of plants today. Our cells do similar things, that we are not consciously aware off, throughout our entire lives. All of them appear to.

Cells appear each have their own individual form of awareness and consciousness. Even our consciousness appears to be a macroconsciousness formed via the coordination of cellular awareness involving many many cells working together.

I have a theory about the basis and nature of consciousness, which is based entirely on cellular chemistry, but those are not ideal for discussion at this forum.
 
Another remarkable plant adaptation that indicates situational awareness is the symbiosis in Ipomoea and its close relatives with various fungi like the fungus Periglandula. This close relative of Ergot once fed on and infected insects. It then transitioned to infecting plants.

However in Ipomoea the case is different than we find in ergot where the fungus is a parasite that interferes with the plants ability to reproduce. In Ipomoea the plants host the fungus, they have special adaptations to do so, many of them are species specific. They also use glands to feed the fungus things like oils, as a food, and the fungus then gives the plant alkaloids, which the plant then transports using vesicles and even modifies them into other closely related alkaloids.

The plant transports the alkaloids, like clavines and lysergic acids, to tender new growth as well as to developing seeds and fruit. The fungus is also sustained by the plant at the meristem and colonizes plant surfaces as they grow and develop. It colonizes seeds as well, being passed down from the mother plants.

The plant recognizes, feeds and interacts with the fungus as a partner, in a responsive manner. Both organisms benefit.

And then later down the line, people discover the activity of the alkaloids produced by the fungus, in the plant's seeds and then the alkaloids of the seeds served as an attractant ensuring further propagation.

In fact, Ipomoea tricolor is closely related to two ancestral species, Ipomoea cardiophylla and Ipomoea marginisepala and this indicates it potentially originated as a hybrid of the two, perhaps even in humans cultivation, for while I. cardiophylla and I. marginisepala both have known ranges where they appear native, Ipomoea tricolor is only known from cultivation or where it appears to have escaped cultivation in the past.

This is also the situation with other plants, like Capsicum pubescens and Zea mays. They have ancestral species but no known wild ancestral form.

And to return somewhat to cacti, I believe that this is also the case with San Pedro, that it originates as a hybrid and that it has no known wild ancestral population. That is another long topic. I may share it further here
later.
 
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because it [i.e. mescaline] is essentially a novel amino acid,
I think this bit might benefit from re-wording. Mescaline may be an amine but it most certainly lacks any kind of carboxylic group typical of an amino acid. It may be derived from an amino acid, but it loses its place in that group once decarboxylation has occurred.

Purely frivolously, it's amusing to note that you can use words like "synapomorphy" but slipped up with "debut". That's not important and all this is incidental; I was actually here to post that somebody kindly gifted me a tephrocactus today and, from the resulting background reading which ensued, it turns out that at least one species in the genus is known to form symbiotic relationships with fungi.
Some species, such as Tephrocactus Phyllanthus, have even developed a symbiotic relationship with fungi that helps them take in wetness and nutrients from the soil.
I'd like to find the primary reference for that, but it's a nice coincidence that this pointer towards an answer turned up in such a way, and under such circumstances, so soon after the question was posed. I'd not thought about tephrocactus for years, but knew the genus as soon as I saw it there on my doorstep - all in all, a pleasingly curious set of affairs! When I have time next week I'll be scouring the literature for possible articles on fungal symbiotes in the trichocereus/echinopsis genus.
 
I use a phone to post and do regular battle with it's spell check. If I type debut it changes it to debit. I got frustrated and wrote it phonetically and the spell check didn't correct it.

The same thing happened with altar in another thread, it kept getting changed to alter by my software as I wrote.

You are right about the pH of the molecules of mescaline, it isn't an acid. It does resemble an amino acid variant to some degree though, in shape and composition. It doesn't decrease hydrogen in solution, you are right, I wasn't very specific there.

I expect and suspect that all cacti have some sort of microbial community associated with them in nature. I would think that includes fungi, bacteria and viruses... maybe yeasts as well. It wouldn't surprise me.
 
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Mescaline is "literally" a monoamine analogue. It would only be "acidic" in the presence of a superbase, to the extent that that designation is totally irrelevant to biological systems.

The only points of interaction with amino acid systems that spring readily to mind for me are where it acts as an equilibrium inhibitor of the AAAD enzymes which produce its precursors. I can't discount the possibility that there may be some cellular receptors which respond to both monoamines and amino acids, but whether they would even produce the same activity seems highly questionable - the electronic and steric environment is very different around the amine end of the molecule compared with that of an amino acid.

If there turns out to be common sites of action for monoamines and their lorresponding amino acid analogues, I would be delighted to find out.
 
FTR, you should (both in and on principle) be able to update the dictionary which your keyboard uses. If it doesn't, get a better app - or OS… If you can't control what your keyboard does, it's probably spying on everything that you type.
All computers and smart phones spy on their users these days. Digital privacy is not a thing that exists outside of human imagination.

I only recently got a phone and didn't carry or own one for the last several years. I got a cheap older model and can barely use it. I mostly use it to look at photos of ancient art and talk to my adult children.

And regarding the amino acids and the tyramines, I think you may underestimate the role of the amine and the resonance of the phenolic group in terms of the function of binding to receptors. I suspect the entire structure matters, not merely a carboxylic group, especially in ancestral populations of life that were single cells.

I could be wrong.
 
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