amor_fati's Guide to Juremala WIP

[q21q21]

Although SWIM hasn't tried the pharma method yet, he's practicing his sublingual technique out on some rue extract.
Definitely took some fiddling and some "EWWW, ack! that's nasty." But the results are very effective.

He started with 80mg, normally a mild sublingual dose for SWIM.

First he tried spreading 8-10 drops on his tongue while it was pressed upon the roof of his mouth, give a LARGE area for drops.

Tongue technique 1: tip curled slightly back and the folded area pressed against the back of the bottom teeth
Result: As the tongue wiggled a little the nasty florescent liquid leaked on top of his tongue, spat out and wiped clean.

Tongue technique 2: Tongue curled like a taco, the underside pressed on the bottom of the mouth.
Result: It was a hard position to hold like the first and the tongue wiggled and "EWW, ack! that's nasty! *spit spit*"

Tongue technique 3: Tongue pressed flat against the roof of the mouth. not too firmly so the sublingual area is still flat.
Result: None was tasted, held for ~5-6 minutes and SPAT OUT.
The effects very strong, more or less compared to 175mg orally!

Although SWIM will try this again with only the roof-method, he knows he felt the effects right after it, and near nothing after the others, understandably since the others were held for 1 to 1 1/2 min only.

Conclusion: Pressing the tongue down may work great for some but SWIM thinks it requires a little too much active will and tongue dexterity.
To gently hold the tongue on the roof of the mouth seemed to work well and there wasn't too much saliva build-up, though there was some.

SWIM believes though that it is the increase in concentration and the drops being spread instead of pooled that created a better absorption.

 

[amor_fati]

Conclusion: Pressing the tongue down may work great for some but SWIM thinks it requires a little too much active will and tongue dexterity.

Can SWIY rub the bottom of his tongue against the bottom of his mouth? SWIM never has to really hold his tongue very firmly in place, and the whole process takes less than a minute per set of drops. SWIM doesn't simply wait for it to absorb, he makes it absorb.

 

[Trickster]

... He started with 80mg, normally a mild sublingual dose for SWIM.

First, let's make sure we are talking about the same things. Do you mean 80 mg of harmalas extracted from Rue? FB, acetate, citrate?

First he tried spreading 8-10 drops on his tongue while it was pressed upon the roof of his mouth, give a LARGE area for drops.

Aha, so it is liquid. How much, volume-wise?

Tongue technique......

OK. SWIM will have to do her own experimenting in front of a mirror.

Conclusion: Pressing the tongue down may work great for some but SWIM thinks it requires a little too much active will and tongue dexterity.

Well, SWIM always thought that this is the only way. Thanks.

SWIM believes though that it is the increase in concentration and the drops being spread instead of pooled that created a better absorption.

It seems that the issue of chemical burn of tender sublingual tissue still remains.

 

[q21q21]

SWIM dissolved 80mg of FB from rue, dissolve (mostly) in 1ml of vinegar. No burn was felt what-so-ever.

 

[Trickster]

Can SWIY rub the bottom of his tongue against the bottom of his mouth?

That is what SWIM did and that resulted in the tincture spilling all over her mouth, which led to excretion of lots of saliva and subsequent involuntary swallowing.

..., and the whole process takes less than a minute per set of drops.

What is SWIY's set of drops?

SWIM doesn't simply wait for it to absorb, he makes it absorb.

When SWIY's sure that the absorption is finished?

 

[Trickster]

The taste of the alkaloids, if sensed by the tongue, causes an automatic release of saliva.

Well, now just a thought of alkaloids in SWIM's mouth make her salivate .

Keeping the alkaloids under the tongue is hard at first. To do it right you need to fight your natural instinct to digest them. Your tongue is going to want to move slightly to allow the saliva access to the alkaloids. You need to hold it tightly against the alkaloids. The idea is that you sandwich the alkaloids tightly between your tongue’s bottom surface, and the bottom of your mouth. As long as they remain there, you cannot taste them and saliva production should not be as much of a problem.

To keep them there and to spread them at the same time? Is not that a contradiction?

It may have been possible with less volume of tincture. 200 mg of Caapi alks is more than 2 ml of tincture. Maybe SWIM should try dry Caapi copy. Is it freeebase? Is it OK to take it sublingually?

A lump of alkaloids doesn’t work well at all. They should be spread thin.

A lump? SWIM thought we are talking about liquids (acetates or citrates).

 

[Trickster]

SWIM dissolved 80mg of FB from rue, dissolve (mostly) in 1ml of vinegar. No burn was felt what-so-ever.

Was it 5% vinegar?

SWIM wonders what vinegar is used in preparation of FV tinctures? Why it burns so much? Is it because of high alks concentration or because of high acetic concentration?

SWIM used ~10 drops of 5% apple vinegar for 50 mg of spice dilution and it was much more palatable than the FV Caapi tincture.

 

[69ron]

SWIM dissolved 80mg of FB from rue, dissolve (mostly) in 1ml of vinegar. No burn was felt what-so-ever.

Was it 5% vinegar?

SWIM wonders what vinegar is used in preparation of FV tinctures? Why it burns so much? Is it because of high alks concentration or because of high acetic concentration?

SWIM used ~10 drops of 5% apple vinegar for 50 mg of spice dilution and it was much more palatable than the FV Caapi tincture.

I think 5% vinegar would spoil if alkaloids were added to it at the concentration they’re using. They are probably using stronger vinegar. Think about it. It has 100 mg of alkaloids per ml. That means much of the acetic acid would be bound to the alkaloids, and therefore could not preserve the solution. Tinctures need to have a long shelf life. For that, you need a low pH of about 4. Anything higher and the tincture would spoil unless you added alcohol or something else to preserve it. Check the pH. I bet it’s 4 or something close to that.

You need to be careful making tinctures from 5% vinegar. Make sure you check the pH. If the pH is 5 or higher, it’s going to spoil. I can’t imagine a tincture made with 5% vinegar that’s 100 mg of alkaloids per ml that would not spoil. The last thing you want is to make a tincture that makes everyone get sick from bacteria.

SWIM once made a vinegar tincture with DMT using normal 5% vinegar and it spoiled after a while and he had to through the whole thing away.

 

[q21q21]

SWIM dissolved 80mg of FB from rue, dissolve (mostly) in 1ml of vinegar. No burn was felt what-so-ever.

Was it 5% vinegar?

SWIM wonders what vinegar is used in preparation of FV tinctures? Why it burns so much? Is it because of high alks concentration or because of high acetic concentration?

SWIM used ~10 drops of 5% apple vinegar for 50 mg of spice dilution and it was much more palatable than the FV Caapi tincture.

SWIM has used the THH tincture. OW!!!! the only thing more painful than that in SWIM's experience is freebase DMT!

 

[69ron]

Nothing burns as bad as freebase DMT. SWIM has the THH tincture and doesn’t find the burn to be much at all. He only uses a few drops though. All he needs is about 5 drops. He hardly feels it in his mouth. His alcohol tinctures of kava kava burns more than that does, until the kava kicks in and numbs the pain.

 

[Seven]

Sorry to hijack the thread but, Ron did you make your own kava alcohol tincture?

 

[69ron]

No. It was store bought. The only time SWIM might make a tincture is if you can't buy it. It's a lot of work, and many kava kava tinctures are readily available at the local herb store. So why bother to do it yourself? You save money, but lose free time in the process, so I don’t think it’s worth it. I value my free time.

 

[Seven]

I was just wondering because i have some kava powder laying around and was thinking about making a tincture. Unfortunately I have no herb shops anywhere near me, your very lucky that you do. I thought making a tincture just involved soaking in ethanol for a period time, than straining. Am i correct?

 

[amor_fati]

Let's clear a few things up: Tincture and powder can be used in exactly the same way--spreading with the bottom of the tongue--and the only major difference is that with tinctures, the dose is determined by number of drops (the amount of alkaloid in each drop can be determined by the volume of the drop versus the concentration of the tincture) while with powders it's by weight. SWIM has specified that he only uses 5-10drop sets at a time and doesn't let it sit under his tongue, rather, he forcefully spreads it and rubs it into his mucous membrane; just as you wouldn't let lotion sit on your skin and expect it to moisturize simply by contact and wouldn't apply more than you could easily rub in, neither do you let large volumes of tincture accumulate in a puddle and simply wait. SWIM's only ever gotten any amount of burning from tinctures from his first experiment, but he learned his lesson and fixed his technique.

Alternatively, with powders, one could use a finger to rub the alkaloid under the tongue.


Also, 69ron, how exactly does a tincture spoil? If it's made directly from the plant, I could understand that, but how could a concentrated solution of extracted alkaloids spoil? Distilled white vinegar generally isn't going to spoil on its own and neither are alkaloid extracts, and doesn't seem like there's any reason an alkaloid salt in water is going to spoil either. Are you simply referring to traditional tinctures?

 

[Trickster]

I think 5% vinegar would spoil if alkaloids were added to it at the concentration they’re using. They are probably using stronger vinegar.

Yeah. SWIM clearly felt that.

Check the pH. I bet it’s 4 or something close to that.

Will do.

You need to be careful making tinctures from 5% vinegar. Make sure you check the pH. If the pH is 5 or higher, it’s going to spoil. I can’t imagine a tincture made with 5% vinegar that’s 100 mg of alkaloids per ml that would not spoil. The last thing you want is to make a tincture that makes everyone get sick from bacteria.

SWIM once made a vinegar tincture with DMT using normal 5% vinegar and it spoiled after a while and he had to through the whole thing away.

SWIM only added vinegar to FB spice to convert it to acetate for better absorption. SWIM doesn't extract a lot of alks to worry about their shelf life. Usually they are stored in a cold dark freezer in FB form.

 

[69ron]

Also, 69ron, how exactly does a tincture spoil? If it's made directly from the plant, I could understand that, but how could a concentrated solution of extracted alkaloids spoil? Distilled white vinegar generally isn't going to spoil on its own and neither are alkaloid extracts, and doesn't seem like there's any reason an alkaloid salt in water is going to spoil either. Are you simply referring to traditional tinctures?

I don’t know why, but they do spoil. SWIM has had two such tinctures spoil on him. One was an LSA extract that spoiled. It contained only 500 MICROGRAMS of pure alkaloids per ml. It was preserved in just 5% vinegar and it went bad. The color changed, and the taste of bacteria was present. After 2 years you could see things floating in it. It was completely clear at the time he made it.

I think dust or something getting into it maybe causes it to spoil. I’m not sure. I don’t know how they go bad when made with pure alkaloids. It doesn’t make much sense, but they do go bad after a while.

The pH of vinegar is important. If the pH goes up above 5, it can spoil. You should keep vinegar tinctures with a pH above 5 refrigerated to prevent spoilage. The FDA has defined pH 4.5 as the highest pH acceptable for vinegar preserved solutions and foods. Anything above that is not considered safe.

 

[Trickster]

Nothing burns as bad as freebase DMT. SWIM has the THH tincture and doesn’t find the burn to be much at all. He only uses a few drops though. All he needs is about 5 drops. He hardly feels it in his mouth. His alcohol tinctures of kava kava burns more than that does, until the kava kicks in and numbs the pain.

Its funny how different people could be. SWIM's experience is quite the opposite. She easily took 150 mg freebase spice sublingually but barely survived 200 mg worth of Caapi tincture.

Ah, I see. 5 drops is not the same as 57 drops (200 mg of alks in FV tinctures).

I will definitely recommend her to experiment with lower doses and different application methods.

 

[69ron]

I was just wondering because i have some kava powder laying around and was thinking about making a tincture. Unfortunately I have no herb shops anywhere near me, your very lucky that you do. I thought making a tincture just involved soaking in ethanol for a period time, than straining. Am i correct?

There are a lot of local herb stores nearby where I am. I don't need to order much on-line.

To make a tincture with alcohol, yes, all you do is soak the kava in alcohol for about 1 week. It should be 50% alcohol or higher, otherwise it can spoil. Then you strain it.

To make a 1:1 tincture, you use 1 oz of herb (by weight) to 1 oz of 50% alcohol (by volume).

To make a 1:2 tincture, you use 1 oz of herb (by weight) to 2 oz of 50% alcohol (by volume).

But if you use vinegar instead of alcohol, you need to test that the pH of the end product is 4.5 or lower. If it's 5 or higher, it will spoil.

The other option is to use glycerin mixed with water. I forget how much you need to use. I like glycerin. I wish the FV tinctures were made with glycerin.

 

[Seven]

Thanks Ron im going to try the 1:1 with some everclear. Glycerin sounds perfect for this though.

 

[mumbles]

Swim and his gf tried 30mg harmalas and 20mg spice as an initial adventure into the world of sublingual administration without swallowing any saliva. While it wasn't as strong as 20mg smoked it lasted substantially longer (2hrs from first alert) with no sedation and synergized extremely well with other smoked herbs and music. Well worth the effort and he can see the potential this transportable and not too obvious method has. So next time it will be 60mg harmalas and 30-40mg spice. Its actually kinda fun trying to keep your tongue on it for 20mins, all the while little bits numb your tongue and your saliva builds if you are unfortunate, its like a psychedelic endurance event hahaha =p