• Members of the previous forum can retrieve their temporary password here, (login and check your PM).

amor_fati's Guide to Juremala WIP

Migrated topic.
Actually, glycerin is often used as a replacement for alcohol for its preservative properties. In the case of the purposes of this thread, it's replacing vinegar, which can only act as a preservative at a strong enough acidity. And yes, it doesn't burn like either alcohol or vinegar. A bit of research, however, has turned up that 50% glycerin/water may be ideal for adequate preservation.

plumsmooth said:
Thanks Amor_, BTW, is there any specific reason you haven't adapted the "spice acetate" to a glycerin formula, especially being that you add a little vinegar back to the fumerate/glycerin formula.
Click to expand...

SWIM doesn't add any vinegar to his fumarate tincture.

I'm just not sure why with acetate, glycerin isn't also included in the recipe...
Click to expand...

No reason, except for that it's not how SWIM's made his tinctures; however, he can include it as an alternative.

Also, would you be interested in amending your sublingual Wiki to include recipes for rue and caapi harmala tinctures.
Click to expand...

SWIM has only been using commercial harmaloid tinctures, but he would like to get back into rue extraction and hopefully THH synthesis in the near-future. Until then, SWIM would imagine that a harmaloid salt can be dissolved in 50% glycerin/water at the same concentration used by FV.
 
I sort of think I answered part of my own question. Tinctures should not be Freebase alkaloid based simply because they will go bad, without some acid preserving it. Is this true, even with Glycerin, which is somewhat of a preservative?

Update, 3 minutes later: I just read that glycerin is as good or better a preservative than Alcohol. So I guess if, for example, freebase Harmalas would dissolve in it, then they could be used interchangeably with hydrochlorides in glycerine tincture? So I am wondering which would be the better choice...
 
Freebase DMT is insoluble in water and glycerin, so a tincture could not be made with it, at all, unless it were converted to a salt. According to 69ron, a vinegar solution of too high of a pH (with freebase alkaloids neutralizing much of the acetic acid content) will spoil like food can spoil, as it's not acidic enough to prevent bacterial colonization. So either the pH must be raised by evaping most of the water content and adding fresh vinegar, or another preservative (glycerin, alcohol) must be added at a high enough concentration to prevent spoiling.

For harmaloids, SWIM would imagine that it would be best to add a certain amount of freebase harmaloids to a dropper bottle, dissolve in vinegar, evap, add 50% glycerin/water.
 
O.K....
What I get from what your saying is, then, Hydrochlorides are a better choice, for Glycerine Harmalas Tinctures?

Partially because the freebase Harmala will actually possibly react enough with the Glycerin, to raise the Ph enough to, reduce the preservative potential of the Glycerin?...

P.S. Thanks for answering the Spice part of the question-- I think that solves that question...

But with the Harmalas, for rue or caapi, I would like to straighten out the preferred form of alkaloid-- especially now that I figured out the Na2CO3 next level food-grade clean-up of previously Triple Manske'd Rue...-- for making glycerin tincture.

Of course this would be a more obvious question if one of the forms of Harmala was that much less dissolvable.
But I haven't discovered it yet, as I don't even have any Glycerin...

Thanks for your consideration... Knowledgeable Ones!
 
plumsmooth said:
O.K....
What I get from what your saying is, then, Hydrochlorides are a better choice, for Glycerine Harmalas Tinctures?

Partially because the freebase Harmala will actually possibly react enough with the Glycerin, to raise the Ph enough to, reduce the preservative potential of the Glycerin?...
Click to expand...

Glycerin is a solvent (nonreactive, just like water or alcohol) in tinctures that happens to provide a somewhat sterile environment within the solution. The glycerin has practically nothing to do with the pH, and the pH is irrelevant in a glycerin tincture. Vinegar acts as a preservative in a different way than alcohol or glycerin, as vinegar simply provides a harsh acidic environment, while glycerin and alcohol provide a sterile environment, all accomplishing the same end of preventing bacteria from colonizing the tincture.

Yes, hydrochlorides could be used simply by dissolving them in glycerin and water.
 
SWIM has been able to get up to 1.5g freebase spice to dissolve in 7.4 mL vinegar. He prepared this tincture as per his normal method (add freebase to dropper bottle, dilute with vinegar, heat, shake, evap, repeat; repeated twice with only partial evaps of less than half the volume of the contents). He's unsure of such a concentrated tincture's ability to reach a low enough pH for adequate preservation, as he's lacking in pH paper; however, he's considering the use of mint oil as a preservative. He's unsure as to whether mint oil could be an adequate preservative and, if so, in what concentration. His ultimate goal is to produce a tincture that is both smokable and edible. Unfortunately, glycerin is much too viscous--and with too high of a boiling point--for SWIM's purposes in vaporization.

The most simple solution would be to try and lower the pH enough by evaping and adding more vinegar, since acetic acid is easily boiled off within the piece (SWIM's method is detailed on the second procedure, here), but it would be preferable to use a preservative that's more orally friendly. With mint, SWIM would want to find the minimum necessary for preservation, which would hopefully be an amount that's not too strong orally or when vaporizing.
 
^Quite likely, but it'd be nice to have more guarantee, not to mention a less horrible tasting tincture. Otherwise SWIM may just simplify the whole thing, stick with vinegar, and just work on a reliable way to keep a low pH at high concentrations.
 
I'm sorry I wasn't very specific with my thought.
I was thinking if you are concerned about contamination for tincture storage, yet still want to maintain the liquid tincture smoking route, then maybe the addition of a small amount of alcohol, like 10% might just give you the protection you are looking for without sacrificing too much of that yummy flavor.
 
amor_fati, is it possible to combine the two tinctures (spice and harmaloid) together to make one tincture for administration? Would this be effective or do the harmaloids need to be administered before spice?
 
SWIM's given this much thought, and while he's considered finding an ideal ratio for himself to do this, he worries about inflexibility and difficulty of measuring such mixture. SWIM prefers to keep them separate, but by no means considers it absolutely necessary.
 
one thought was...
whether for Pharma or Muco,
if one was working with a large enough amount to evaporate a test run of vinegar mimosa alks,
then, after one has generally established the yield...

That for Pharma and Muco vs Changa, since the ratio is in favor of the Harmaloids by a bit, that maybe addition of the harmalas to the dehydrating spice vinegar might actually-- low and behold-- render a non oily final product; one that would be much easier to handle and scrape up etc.

That is assuming one's final salt is as dry and powdery as a manske harmala hydrochloride.

IF one added a dry freebase caapi extract for example, it would, I guess, turn into acetate which I guess, I'm not sure:

would harmala acetate be also dry like hydrochloride?

Anyway, if so, then with a ratio like 4:1 harmala/spice I would think it would have to be Dryer...
 
Tying to find a couple tiny dropper bottles for storage & administration of spice and harmala tincture administration. The smallest bottles my local pharmacy sells are 2 ounce (~60 mL) capacity. Way too large for my purposes. Any suggestions?
 
Thanks for the suggestion. Looked on eBay and found some dropper bottles, but with the cost of shipping included, I found I'd be paying about as much as I'd pay for a couple bottles dry-eye relief liquid, so I just picked up two of those. Hopefully I can unscrew the dropper top to the bottle so I can pour my spice / harmala alkaloids in the opening with ease.
 
Hmm. Looks like I've got a bit of work to do on my technique. ~40mg caapi alkaloids and ~30mg DMT, both administered sublingually, resulted in about ten minutes of slight OEVs and a general sort of psychedelic / anti-gravity body high. A bit of a letdown, considering Amor Fati's reports.

The only part of the technique I don't understand is the instruction to forbid the tincture to commingle with saliva -- saliva seems to be quickly produced under my tongue, and instantly dilutes the tincture, no matter how tight a "seal" I try to form over the sublingual mucosa with my tongue. Aren't there salivary glands under the tongue anyway?
 
-- saliva seems to be quickly produced under my tongue, and instantly dilutes the tincture, no matter how tight a "seal" I try to form over the sublingual mucosa with my tongue. Aren't there salivary glands under the tongue anyway?
Click to expand...

You know what, I think that's what happens to me too.
There might be a small window, whereby the tincture doesn't react, but then...
more liquid forms (saliva).

Personally I'd like to think that it (alkaloids) still work there way in there (even with extra saliva), but I haven't had strong enough effects yet to suggest that I have come anywhere close to mastering this tech.

I'm also not trying every day either, so that will slow things down a bit.

However I read reference to more than 6 drops a piece Harmala/Dmitrius tincture being TOO much for some so I'm sure a little practice is in order still.

Of course there is still the factor of how concentrated one's tincture is as well.
 
Back
Top Bottom