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An ethical dilemma
- Thread starter irenic
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I wonder why people have no ethical problem buying other drugs like Cannabis and Salvia? Is it because they are active in their natural state? If this is the case though, why don't people have qualms buying MDMA and LSD? Only professional chemists would be able to make their own LSD, forcing everyone else to buy - unless of course they knew a generous chemist.
I think this forum, specialising as it does in the manufacturing of DMT, is just a bit precious regarding the selling of the substance in question. I think it would be perfectly ethical, if DMT were legal, to be sold through sites that currently sell the raw materials of manufacture, and which currently sell Salvia.
As for the original post, why not ask those whoe enjoy your surplus, to reimburse you for the cost of materials?
Seeking to make a profit I can understand as being ethically dubious, as well as the buying of any illegal product on the black market, regardless of what it is.
I think this forum, specialising as it does in the manufacturing of DMT, is just a bit precious regarding the selling of the substance in question. I think it would be perfectly ethical, if DMT were legal, to be sold through sites that currently sell the raw materials of manufacture, and which currently sell Salvia.
As for the original post, why not ask those whoe enjoy your surplus, to reimburse you for the cost of materials?
Seeking to make a profit I can understand as being ethically dubious, as well as the buying of any illegal product on the black market, regardless of what it is.
Morphane said:
Yes, it would be ethical to sell dmt if dmt were legal, but it isn't. And yes, people at this site are precious regarding the selling of dmt. They don't want dmt to be lumped in with the absolute nightmare that is drug trafficking, and all the issues that go along with it. Many people here consider their dmt use a deeply spiritual practice. It is a great insult to be associated with sellers out to make a profit, or push substances upon others. I suppose people here consider posession, and personal use very different from distribution and selling. People here don't want to be associated with pushers, or anyone interested in making profit from dmt, or drug trade in any way. We don't want dmt to be like lsd, or weed. Well, maybe weed because weed is on its way to decriminalization.
Currently, the law says that Ayahuasca related plants themselves are legal, but dmt is not. Therefore, we have no problem discussing the selling of plants. If the plants themselves were to banned, it would be a tragedy... and the whole discussion would be changed. That's why no one cares about talking about selling lsd. LSD has a different situation. We don't want dmt to end up like lsd, or MDMA. It would be very sad, and I rather not think about it.
But, within the current set of rules, we can at least show our willingness to be responsible, to be different from the common "druggie", by lambasting the selling of dmt because it is highly illegal, and we feel it somehow makes dmt users associated with criminals, or people out there trying to profit off illegal drug trade or get people hooked. We want to show we don't give a DAMN about that shit! We don't give a damn about drug trade. We are in this for personal use, personal choice, spiritual use, use a healing aid, use as a tool to expose our own inner demons so that we can come to terms with our own lives so that we can become better people for our families, ourselves, and for the world, etc. We, or at least I, feel that this stance against selling of dmt, but not the selling of LEGAL plants shows co-operation within current confines. Just the attitude of co-operation I think is useful because the attitude of co-operation places a role of responsibility on the USER in a taboo area of life. Drug users are not typically expected to be responsible, so if we can show co-operation and responsibility, I feel that at least should make some kind of difference to someone out there... It shows we're not out here trying to skirt the law just to be assholes, or rebel or profit, or hurt anyone in any way. We're just here using a substance which we've found to be beneficial in our lives, and if buying Ayahuasca plants is legal, then I will buy them and talk about buying them. But I have no interest, nor do I support in any way, the selling of DMT. Whether this makes any difference to anyone out there, I don't know, but we want to show how we feel about this substance, and this subject anyhow. Even if this responsible attitude doesn't make a differerence to anyone of power, it still doesn't hurt, and I still believe that the responsible way is the best wway.
Morphane - you make it so very hard to be gracious.
While I've never begrudged your fascination with this thing of ours, you are at best a tourist in here, an outsider looking in. You make presumptions constantly about things you know nothing about, and I've seen you do it ever since I first became a member. For you to refer to the communal ideal that DMT not be commodifed as "precious"... well, I think you're a fucking asshole. You haven't had the experience yourself and you're not interested in having it. You just hang out like some creepy voyeur, masturbating in the shadows, judging the rest of us while holding up your own shitty faith as superior.
But, as you are such a man of faith, why don't you answer me this: How much would you charge for a direct, first hand experience of YOUR God? What price would you put on true divinity? How much for a state of grace? We stand against commodification for many valid reasons - not the least of which is that what we have found is too special to cheapen in this manner.
I've never liked you, you sanctimonious prick. Grow a spine and see for yourself. Or don't and shut the fuck up.
While I've never begrudged your fascination with this thing of ours, you are at best a tourist in here, an outsider looking in. You make presumptions constantly about things you know nothing about, and I've seen you do it ever since I first became a member. For you to refer to the communal ideal that DMT not be commodifed as "precious"... well, I think you're a fucking asshole. You haven't had the experience yourself and you're not interested in having it. You just hang out like some creepy voyeur, masturbating in the shadows, judging the rest of us while holding up your own shitty faith as superior.
But, as you are such a man of faith, why don't you answer me this: How much would you charge for a direct, first hand experience of YOUR God? What price would you put on true divinity? How much for a state of grace? We stand against commodification for many valid reasons - not the least of which is that what we have found is too special to cheapen in this manner.
I've never liked you, you sanctimonious prick. Grow a spine and see for yourself. Or don't and shut the fuck up.
Apoc, amen.
These plants have *quite literally* saved my life. There would be no Minxey here to post today if she had not been privileged enough to begin the path of healing. If people were to start selling, attract negative attention and get the plants banned... lots of people who depend on these medicines would suffer enormously or find themselves in risky situations. When you handle the medicine, you handle it on behalf of the entire community. We are all so intimately connected. Everything we do and say affects each other... So, please, take care, and remember this amazing community you belong to. Remember the beauty of the lessons. The beauty is our birth right... please do what you can to prevent any more obstructions from meeting with something so beautiful.Getting paid back isn't even the issue: RESPONSIBILITY is the issue. You are responsible for every person's psyche you touch with the medicine. That's so much more profound than any amount of dollars. If I give the medicine to someone, I don't care about how much money they have or what they can do for me: I want to know they are okay. I want to know they're integrating. I want to know they are working with the experience as a catalyst to change their lives in a positive way. The changes made by all the people you gift medicine to affect YOUR world: YOUR world becomes a better place by YOU sharing. Pretty freaking cool.
Let me add a post about how we (the people from the other side of the line) are seeing the situation.
We, the people who have not smoked DMT freebase, are categorized in 3 classes:
Group 1) The ones with some psychedelic experiences that are interested in DMT.
Group 2) The ones without psychedelic experiences that are interested in DMT.
Group 3) The ones that don't give a damn about DMT... and most likely hate "drugs".
Group 1 would like DMT to be free for all as much as they would like that for Psilocyibin, LSD, Salvia and Mescaline. However, this group would pay for DMT without thinking it twice. Why? Curiosity and the thirst of having the ultimate psychedelic experience (according to the Internet). This group knows that one shouldn't buy DMT, but they have bought acid before... and they use that as a pretext, thanks to a defense mechanism called: Intellectualization. (However, they kind of get the point... but not entirely)
Remember, this group has heard that DMT is the "spirit molecule"... but doesn't KNOW it IS the spirit molecule. This group is skeptical about the comparisons of meditation and DMT experiences. They are expecting something way much more visual. They will be shocked by the DMT Train, but they were expecting the shock of their lives anyway. They always ask: "What's the easiest and fastest TEK to extract DMT?" They always say: "DMT should be legalized"
Group 2 would pay for DMT and doesn't think other psychedelics should be "free". They would like them to be free, but most of them don't see what could be possibly wrong about selling mushrooms or selling peyote. This group is afraid that psychedelics would turn them "addicts" and analyze the information they read or hear very carefully, and yet, they don't really understand what is going on (just like the Group 1 doesn't "really understand" why DMT shouldn't be bought). This group thinks that it is possible to compare the DMT experience to a deep meditative state. They are using the defense mechanism called: Fantasy. They also insist that the pineal gland is responsible for DMT synthesis in the brain. They are not expecting THOSE visuals, and they will be shocked because they don't have ANY reference whatsoever. They always ask: "Does DMT produce brain damage?". They always say: "NDE = DMT"
Group 3 has heard that DMT is "amazing"... but they think is "psychedelic meth". They don't care if it is being sold, bought, given for free, wasted or anything. They definitely wouldn't understand why the DMT community is so sensitive about this issue. They find it pathetic and think "spiceheads" are deluded and find it quite creepy, actually. They don't care if drugs are legal or not, but they would sell them if it were legal to do so. They use the defense mechanism called: Denial. Some of them (40%) are somewhat curious about all this Ayahuasca buzz that's been going on lately... maybe they will go to the Amazon with a group of friends and find a shaman to do some 'healing'... but in reality he/she wants to have the experience in order to talk about the crazy adventures in the jungle to his/her friends. Smoke DMT? C'mon they are not druggies. They always ask: "It's like LSD?" They always say: "It's like LSD."
As a final comment I'll say that we, the ones who haven't had the experience, don't see why it would be wrong to buy DMT. It's not sacred to us (yet). And hey, if they are selling Salvia Divinorum... why not DMT? (REMEMBER WE HAVEN'T HAD-THE-EXPERIENCE! WE ARE INGORANTS/FOOLS/ AND DON'T KNOW WE ARE BLASPHEMING)
So guys, you'll have to relax and be tolerant a little bit... because when the shit hits the fan, things will get dirty. Just take ME for example, I have been here for months and have researched about DMT since 2007... and it took me all that time to understand that buying DMT might put in danger the availability of MHRB. Now imagine what the rest of the world would think about selling and buying DMT. They wouldn't care.... until they smoke it. Then they would probably extract them themselves and give it for free. And also, IF drugs become legal soon, I'm sure there would be a lot of FREE psychedelics. (The way it's really meant to be
)
We, the people who have not smoked DMT freebase, are categorized in 3 classes:
Group 1) The ones with some psychedelic experiences that are interested in DMT.
Group 2) The ones without psychedelic experiences that are interested in DMT.
Group 3) The ones that don't give a damn about DMT... and most likely hate "drugs".
Group 1 would like DMT to be free for all as much as they would like that for Psilocyibin, LSD, Salvia and Mescaline. However, this group would pay for DMT without thinking it twice. Why? Curiosity and the thirst of having the ultimate psychedelic experience (according to the Internet). This group knows that one shouldn't buy DMT, but they have bought acid before... and they use that as a pretext, thanks to a defense mechanism called: Intellectualization. (However, they kind of get the point... but not entirely)
Remember, this group has heard that DMT is the "spirit molecule"... but doesn't KNOW it IS the spirit molecule. This group is skeptical about the comparisons of meditation and DMT experiences. They are expecting something way much more visual. They will be shocked by the DMT Train, but they were expecting the shock of their lives anyway. They always ask: "What's the easiest and fastest TEK to extract DMT?" They always say: "DMT should be legalized"
Group 2 would pay for DMT and doesn't think other psychedelics should be "free". They would like them to be free, but most of them don't see what could be possibly wrong about selling mushrooms or selling peyote. This group is afraid that psychedelics would turn them "addicts" and analyze the information they read or hear very carefully, and yet, they don't really understand what is going on (just like the Group 1 doesn't "really understand" why DMT shouldn't be bought). This group thinks that it is possible to compare the DMT experience to a deep meditative state. They are using the defense mechanism called: Fantasy. They also insist that the pineal gland is responsible for DMT synthesis in the brain. They are not expecting THOSE visuals, and they will be shocked because they don't have ANY reference whatsoever. They always ask: "Does DMT produce brain damage?". They always say: "NDE = DMT"
Group 3 has heard that DMT is "amazing"... but they think is "psychedelic meth". They don't care if it is being sold, bought, given for free, wasted or anything. They definitely wouldn't understand why the DMT community is so sensitive about this issue. They find it pathetic and think "spiceheads" are deluded and find it quite creepy, actually. They don't care if drugs are legal or not, but they would sell them if it were legal to do so. They use the defense mechanism called: Denial. Some of them (40%) are somewhat curious about all this Ayahuasca buzz that's been going on lately... maybe they will go to the Amazon with a group of friends and find a shaman to do some 'healing'... but in reality he/she wants to have the experience in order to talk about the crazy adventures in the jungle to his/her friends. Smoke DMT? C'mon they are not druggies. They always ask: "It's like LSD?" They always say: "It's like LSD."
As a final comment I'll say that we, the ones who haven't had the experience, don't see why it would be wrong to buy DMT. It's not sacred to us (yet). And hey, if they are selling Salvia Divinorum... why not DMT? (REMEMBER WE HAVEN'T HAD-THE-EXPERIENCE! WE ARE INGORANTS/FOOLS/ AND DON'T KNOW WE ARE BLASPHEMING)
So guys, you'll have to relax and be tolerant a little bit... because when the shit hits the fan, things will get dirty. Just take ME for example, I have been here for months and have researched about DMT since 2007... and it took me all that time to understand that buying DMT might put in danger the availability of MHRB. Now imagine what the rest of the world would think about selling and buying DMT. They wouldn't care.... until they smoke it. Then they would probably extract them themselves and give it for free. And also, IF drugs become legal soon, I'm sure there would be a lot of FREE psychedelics. (The way it's really meant to be
)
Uncle Knucles said:
If DMT or Salvia were easily procurable, I would probably see for myself what all the fuss was about. I undergo Paradigm shifts, and as such am not a man of faith anymore. At the moment I'm trying to appreciate regular consciousness, but would paradigm shift in an instant if psychedelics came within my means.
I agree I'm not a very likable person at this forum, but in my better times I refrain from imposing my opinion. But in moments of boredom, I do tend to become a sanctimonious prick. I don't know what to do, unless I get the moderators to ban me, but then I won't have access to interesting pictures people post, which I have to log in to see. And then one day I might have a serious question regarding teks or what not.
I think you are wrong in casting creepy voyeuristic aspertions onto me though. I agree with Terence McKenna, who said something along the lines that psychonauts were like explorers for the benefit of humanity. That it was their duty to bring back data to be consumed and pondered over.
So what if I get aesthetic gratification from some of the experiences people report? Is it wrong to receive pleasure from art, or the product of another's perspective? This is exactly the kind of preciousness and elitism that galls me.
One of the many problems of putting a pricetag on spice is that the consideration of who to share it with becomes monetary, and it really shouldn't be. The experience is overwhelming, and can be life-changing, and this confers an awesome responsibility to those who seek to share it. It's all very well to say that people are adults who make their own choices, but there is no way to make an informed choice about taking spice if you've never tried it; as there is simply no way of grasping the extent and depth of it's power.
Similarly, giving it away just because you have too much is also, in my view, irresponsible ... when considering whether to share this with another, I believe we need to consider very carefully if the person will benefit from the journey, and whether they really need this medicine. It's partly intuition, and partly knowledge of the person and their circumstances. I would never share spice with someone unless it followed a lot of long, deep, honest discussion - because once they enter hyperspace, all that happens to them is in part my responsibility. Others may feel differently, but this is my strong view.
Similarly, giving it away just because you have too much is also, in my view, irresponsible ... when considering whether to share this with another, I believe we need to consider very carefully if the person will benefit from the journey, and whether they really need this medicine. It's partly intuition, and partly knowledge of the person and their circumstances. I would never share spice with someone unless it followed a lot of long, deep, honest discussion - because once they enter hyperspace, all that happens to them is in part my responsibility. Others may feel differently, but this is my strong view.
OutThereSomewhere
Rising Star
I remember the very first time I was actually in the presence of spice (and the very first time I learned, in-depth, about it) a few years ago & I asked the guy "So, how much did they sell it to you for?" I was quickly corrected - "What? There is NO price on this on what's in this container. Let me explain to you why........"
I'll never forget it... mainly because the explanation of why made the 'no price' statement ring true. I know you will make the right decision! :d
I'll never forget it... mainly because the explanation of why made the 'no price' statement ring true. I know you will make the right decision! :d
I have never liked the idea of people buying or selling DMT. With just a little research anyone can extract it themselves.
As a new member I'm wondering - if you're against selling, are you against buying? Because that's what I've been doing. It hasn't been easy either to find the right people to do the extraction, but I have and it has paid off. It do not, in turn, sell it. Ever. See I live with people who rent rooms from me and are sometimes half-strangers, and I have no intention of explaining to them that what goes on in the basement is a 'good drug' extraction. So I basically hire people to acquire the products needed for the operation and to complete the operation. That's how I see it. I would love to do the extraction myself, and I plan on doing that eventually, even finding some roots this weekend, but I have to work towards making it safe and right. Meanwhile, I have no problem financing some friends of friends who can use the money, because I can sure use the spare time.
Shayku - At the risk of possibly taking the title of Most Judgemental Man on The Nexus... to me, that's kind of lame. You shift all the risk (both legal and physical) of doing your own extractions onto your cash strapped friends? That's more than a little bit exploitative, wouldn't you have to say?
If you really wanted to do it yourself, I'm guessing you'd find a way. Earn that relationship with hyperspace. Buying is a no-no.
If you really wanted to do it yourself, I'm guessing you'd find a way. Earn that relationship with hyperspace. Buying is a no-no.
I agree with Art...and time spent in avoidance of extracting doesn't qualify (at least to my mind) as spare time. That's time where you should have been deepening your relationship with the spice through extraction and the intentions and mindset that goes with it (again, my opinion). Jorkest does this entire extraction with out running water or a stove...no need to do it in a "public" basement...I'm assuming you have a private room that only you enter...no reason you couldn't do a foodsafe extraction in there...Uncle Knucles said:
peace
SB
Well, first, no, I don't find it exploitative. I did not create the conditions for their relative poverty (at least not more than you or they), and I am not forcing anyone to do anything. It is a mutually beneficial exchange of money vs time and expertise. The risk is shared, imo, as I insist on seeing this as me financing an activity, not merely being a client. It is not a situation where I am being self-sufficient, clearly. It is a situation where individuals come together to share, exchange goods and build relationships based on trust. I understand this reluctance to approve of commerce in a somewhat esoteric context, but I do not believe that coming together to trade resources is a bad thing. The spice is a result of my relationships, as is my psyche.
That being said, I am interested in learning to extract. I have to be very careful about it, and am working my way towards it, meeting the contacts for roots this weekend. I can possibly perform minimal operations in my room, but people do tend to come in and out to talk to me. I will probably have to rent a space just for this, involving more commerce than in the first option, really. Meanwhile, I will continue to engage in exchanges with trusted fellow humans.
And a question : doesn't it smell pretty bad at some points in the extraction?
That being said, I am interested in learning to extract. I have to be very careful about it, and am working my way towards it, meeting the contacts for roots this weekend. I can possibly perform minimal operations in my room, but people do tend to come in and out to talk to me. I will probably have to rent a space just for this, involving more commerce than in the first option, really. Meanwhile, I will continue to engage in exchanges with trusted fellow humans.
And a question : doesn't it smell pretty bad at some points in the extraction?
Not if you do a food-safe extraction. That's why I suggested it for your situation. The mhrb will have minimal odor when basified, the limonene smells of oranges, and salting out with fumaric acid is odorless. If you went with vinegar it would be more odorific, but nothing that lingers or smells of chemicals.Shayku said:
EDIT: Yea, good point Art. Why not just do it at/with your friends?
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Shayku said:
It can. This isn't something you're going to want to do at home with a house full of tenants. But what about your friends' pads? Why not roll up your sleeves and get involved, rather than pay them to do it for you?
In any case, I'm not trying to offend you. This isn't the worst thing I've ever heard of. But I do think you'll find the entire experience a lot more rewarding once you do it yourself.
g13juggalo
Rising Star
I personally don't see why everyones so against selling DMT. I'd love for a lot of friends to learn from DMT
From my view:
Don't deal it, or sell it to strangers, and only sell to close friends who you feel deserve it, the people you would give it away to, and make sure they understand it first.
From my view:
Don't deal it, or sell it to strangers, and only sell to close friends who you feel deserve it, the people you would give it away to, and make sure they understand it first.
Sure. Well, I promise to work towards that. I may actually rent a space for a while, and I'll look for options for sure. I certainly would enjoy the working meditation involved in doing it myself. I'll ask if I can join too, in fact when I first looked for spice, that was my approach, to do it together, my money, their space, our work, but the person preferred to do it alone. I'll try again, it does seem worthwhile.
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