Anadenanthera spp. and Virola spp. Analysis Thread

[endlessness]

In this thread I will collect information on analysis of Anadenanthera spp. and Virola spp, including unique analysis done by the DMT Nexus, and others published in literature. This first post will be edited whenever new information comes in

Literature
Anadenanthera peregrina wikipedia
Anadenanthera peregrina Nexus wiki
Anadenanthera spp. containing DMT
Anadenanthera spp. containing bufotenine
Anandenanthera spp. containing 5-MeO-DMT
Virola Spp. containing DMT
Virola Spp. containing 5-MeO-DMT
Trout´s some simple tryptamines


DMT-Nexus analysis (in collaboration with Kykeon Analytics)


Virola theiodora bark (#7)

Results:
5-MeO-DMT 0.0286%
5-MeO-DMT N-Oxide 0.004%
5-MeO-NMT* 0.002%
DMT 0.001%


Anadenanthera peregrina seeds (#10)

Results:
Traces DMT, NMT


Anadenanthera colubrina seeds (#151)

Origin: Peru
Results:
Bufotenine 0.6%
DMT 0.024%
NMT 0.003%
Bufotenine N-oxide 0.003%


Anadenanthera colubrina seeds (#152)

Origin: Colombia
Results:
Bufotenine 0.5%
Bufotenine N-Oxide 0.003%
5-MeO-DMT 0.003%
DMT 0.0015%

Anadenanthera peregrina seeds (#153)

Origin: Peru
Results:
Bufotenine 0.53%
DMT 0.01%

 

[dragonrider]

I have quite a supply of colubrina myself. I could send you some, if you like.

The thing is, they are powdered and i am not 100% sure it is colubrina and not peregrina. I also don't know the exact origin.

 

[Quetzal7]

Thx !

So, long story short story, is there a usable source of 5-MEO in the plant world?

 

[endlessness]

Thx !

So, long story short story, is there a usable source of 5-MEO in the plant world?

Not yet that I´m aware of but I´m willing to collaborate with people with promissing samples to assay for 5-MeO-DMT and hopefully find a good reliably yielding 5-MeO-DMT containing plant

 

[the red squirrel]

Not yet that I´m aware of but I´m willing to collaborate with people with promissing samples to assay for 5-MeO-DMT and hopefully find a good reliably yielding 5-MeO-DMT containing plant Smile

I was wondering if you need plant material as a reliable source or just as a reference sample for 5-Meo-DMT?

Is there a reason why the fungal kingdom is somewhat overlooked/neglected when it comes to 5-Meo-DMT and bufotenin? I once came across an interesting investigation paper (Tyler V.E. and Gröger D., 1964) about the alkaloid content of some Amanita species (disclaimer: the journal article comes from the era when psychedelics were still mentioned as 'psychotomimetic agents for psychosis' :lol: so I don't really know if it is still accurate).

It is quite interesting to see that some tryptamines were identified in Amanita citrinia and Amanita porphyria. Unfortunately in small amounts but I do wonder if it could give a useful extract. Tyler & Gröger tested if mycelium cultures of A. citrinia would biosynthesize in vitro and surprisingly it could produce small amounts of bufotenine. The work is probably not applicable and there are still some other amatoxins present in the fungus body but if one would take the journey for an interesting project...

Data from the paper: (relative concentrations: (expressed as 10 = maximum, 0 = none))
Amanita citrina:
Bufotenine-N-oxide = 4
Bufotenine = 10
5-Meo-DMT = 0.25
N,N-DMT = 0.25

Amanita porphyria:
Bufotenine-N-oxide = 2
Bufotenine = 8
5-Meo-DMT = 0.1
N,N-DMT = 0

Tyler, V. E., & Gröger, D. (1964). Investigation of the alkaloids of Amanita species - II. Amanita citrina and Amanita porphyria. Planta Med, 12(4), 334-339. INVESTIGATION OF THE ALKALOIDS OF AMANITA SPECIES1– II. AMANITA. CITRINA AND AMANITA PORPHYRIA

 

[endlessness]

Hey!

Thanks for the post and sharing this publication! It´s definitely interesting to see mushrooms containing these compounds. Unfortunately a relative concentration doesn´t help us knowing if the absolute amounts are significant (and therefore useful to try extracting) or closer to trace amounts only.

The search for a reliable 5-MeO-DMT plant source is not for me personally, and the lab I´m collabing with doesn´t need it either since reference standard is available... Rather, it´s just something I want to help find for others in the community.

So far, people who have been smoking 5-MeO-DMT either have been using from Bufo alvarius secretions, which entails concerns for animal welfare/sustainability, or from synthetic 5-MeO-DMT sources, which means people are depending on others for it.

I think it would be better if people were able to harvest from local plants or cultivated plants, so that they can be sustainable (and self-sufficient).

 

[dragonrider]

Isn't the problem separating it from "normal" DMT? I thought some phalaris strains where actually pretty high in 5-meo.

 

[neurobloom]

This is exciting! Much appreciated for the effort Endlessness. I can't wait to send some samples now.

I replied back to you over pm for some clarifications regarding sending the samples.

For a 5-meo-dmt I think phalaris is a great candidate. It's only a matter of finding the right strain. Crop science literature indicates that's aquatica strains that are 5meo dominant is highest yeilding in autumn particularly first and second regrowth after a long dry summer.

 

[dragonrider]

Could maybe a way to separate 5-meo from other alkaloids be, to use a tiny amount of synthetic or bufo derived 5-meo as a starter for crystalization?

 

[the red squirrel]

Hi Endlessness! You are indeed completely right regarding the search for a sustainable plant source! The Bufo alvarius should be left alone, especially since it is now listed as a threatened species in New Mexico

It will probably just be a dead end but I'll see if I can find some better data regarding the alkaloid content of those mushrooms!

 

[Twilight Person]

I think it would be interesting to see if indeed some rare occasions might happen when bufotenin in A. colubrina hits like 6 % - this really weird literature value once found ...

To me that just sounds weird: How and why would a plant produce a considerable amount of its own seed weight in just 1 alkaloid substance and stuff it inside of those seeds? Which are anyways already pretty space-limited, regarding they have to fit inside everything that the seedling even needs for germination. I always see it when reading something about Bufotenin on Erowid and so on. But it just sounds unrealistic? Today we have weed with ~ 30 % THC nearly, but that is the end of an ever-ongoing crazy race of artificial breeding.

And about sourcing Mushrooms for Bufotenin I think they are mostly just contained in really toxic specimens? Like the yellow phalloids. So probably hard to every get them out of those toxins, where you have always a cocktail of quite-similar isomers anyways :thumb_dow

I saw some fungi toxins which were quaternary amines, like methyl-dimethylamines. I wonder if those are mostly causing the toxicicity because they look pretty close to Cholin from Acetyl-Cholin. And eating something that has an uncontrollable resemblence of a neurotransmitter may only end pretty badly.

I guess that is the reason why smoking the Toad Venom is the only way: Quaternary amines (also present in toads not only fungi) will probably not vaporize due to their ionic nature?

 

[downwardsfromzero]

I think it would be interesting to see if indeed some rare occasions might happen when bufotenin in A. colubrina hits like 6 % - this really weird literature value once found ...

To me that just sounds weird: How and why would a plant produce a considerable amount of its own seed weight in just 1 alkaloid substance and stuff it inside of those seeds? Which are anyways already pretty space-limited, regarding they have to fit inside everything that the seedling even needs for germination. I always see it when reading something about Bufotenin on Erowid and so on. But it just sounds unrealistic? Today we have weed with ~ 30 % THC nearly, but that is the end of an ever-ongoing crazy race of artificial breeding.

That is a great question and something that crossed my mind too. Bear in mind that certain mushrooms can contain up to 3.85% of psilocybin which is in a similar ball-park range. And we can speculate endlessly () about the reasons behind that as well.

And about sourcing Mushrooms for Bufotenin I think they are mostly just contained in really toxic specimens? Like the yellow phalloids. So probably hard to every get them out of those toxins, where you have always a cocktail of quite-similar isomers anyways :thumb_dow

One of the other trivial names for bufotenine is mappine, which derives from its being detected in what at the time was known as Amanita mappa. This is a now-deprecated name for Amanita citrina and, while this fungus does contain detectable quantities of amanitin these are not sufficient to make it overtly dangerous.

Amanita citrina - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

However, given the tiny quantities of bufotenine found in these mushrooms it would be necessary to gather a huge amount of them in order to extract any significant amount of bufotenine. Add to that that they are a mycorrhizal species and that means that essentially only wild collecting would be a 'viable' if wholly unsustainble option - not to mention the overarching danger of confusing them with something truly toxic like A. phalloides.

Yes, we still need to find viable plants!

I saw some fungi toxins which were quaternary amines, like methyl-dimethylamines. I wonder if those are mostly causing the toxicicity because they look pretty close to Cholin from Acetyl-Cholin. And eating something that has an uncontrollable resemblence of a neurotransmitter may only end pretty badly.

Yes, studies have also shown that aeruginascin displays activity in the cholinergic nervous system, as do quaternary alkaloids from cactus such as candicine.

I guess that is the reason why smoking the Toad Venom is the only way: Quaternary amines (also present in toads not only fungi) will probably not vaporize due to their ionic nature?

They won't volatilise unchanged but quaternary amines like this (indolylethyl trimethylammonium compounds to be more precise - "methyl dimethyl[...]" == trimethyl...) will pyrolise to the vinylindole (or potentially derivatives thereof such as the tryptophol) and trimethylamine.

The other reason for smoking toad venom rather than eating it is that it contains cardiotoxic steroidal glycosides which are similarly involatile.