Ancient drugs documentary

[unansweredquestions]

DMT: A Lost History

Dimethyltryptamine, or DMT, can be found in many plants and animal species, but its effects are said to be as rare and powerful as the divine. When...

topdocumentaryfilms.com

really interesting documentary! jesus being offered opium, somarians boozing, ancient greeks tripping on ergot.

dont know how seriously to take this but still worth a watch.

anyone got any more informtion on this soma? sounds like my cup of tea :d

 

[Sally]

anyone got any more informtion on this soma? sounds like my cup of tea :d

Look at the work of R. Gordon Wasson, he speculates that Soma was made from amanita muscaria :d. There are a few theories out there, but in my opinion, his holds more weight.

Much love,
Sally
xx

 

[Limeni]

I haven't watched the documentary, but we do know for certain that the Greeks' "Eleusian Mysteries" ceremony went on for 2,500 years until destroyed by Christians. On entering the Telesterion they were give some sort of potion to drink, and then had startling and life-changing visions which convinced them of the spirit world/afterlife. (They were forbidden to recreate the potion, but we do know of people being arrested for recreating and using it at parties in Athens).

All that is 'fact'...it's just what was in the potion which is unknown.

It's funny because, our modern society reveres the Ancient Greeks above all others, yet this ceremony - which was central to the lives of all intelligent Greeks was never once mentined in my "classical education"!

 

[christian]

It's funny because, our modern society reveres the Ancient Greeks above all others, yet this ceremony - which was central to the lives of all intelligent Greeks was never once mentined in my "classical education"! Wink

-Because it was banned, you naughty noo noo!!

 

[Rising Spirit]

anyone got any more informtion on this soma? sounds like my cup of tea :d

Look at the work of R. Gordon Wasson, he speculates that Soma was made from amanita muscaria :d. There are a few theories out there, but in my opinion, his holds more weight.

Much love,
Sally
xx

Yes, fly agaric mushrooms are the most probable main ingredient in the legendary elixir, Soma. Many have speculated, that since it was a mysterious and secretive concoction, it also contained hashish and datura. Now this is a most reasonable conclusion to draw, given the profession of the historical evidence for these 3 power plants. :idea:

In their ground-breaking classic, Plants of the Gods by Richard Evans Schultes and Dr. Albert Hoffman, there is a wonderful bronze sculpture of Lord Shiva (on page 11), dancing in his incarnation as Nataraja, where he is encircled by a ring of flames. This is a very wide-spread image in the realm of Indian sculpture. Even I bought a brass replica in the late 1970's, from a local import shop in my home town.

My point? Datura flowers are woven into his wild locks and the use of datura amongst Hindu Shivite sadhus (as well as hashish and also amanita muscaria) is common knowledge in India and abroad. So, I would have to agree with such theories, that Soma was indeed an admixture/ blend of these three powerful entheogens. :idea:

for those without access to this literary classic and who haven't got a clue as to the Dance of Shiva, as Nataraja, this antiquated video from the 1950's-1960's, shows the specific movements which are depicted in the historical statues:

Another interesting take on this Cosmic Dance is this video of pics taken from the Hubble telescope:

I digress? Usually... :lol:

It's funny because, our modern society reveres the Ancient Greeks above all others, yet this ceremony - which was central to the lives of all intelligent Greeks was never once mentioned in my "classical education"!

Right on. All I was taught, even in college courses, was that there were "rituals" which included some mysterious entheogen or another. I recall something about the oracle of Delphi and "fumes" being inhaled around the shrine?

There is an ancient raised relief sculpture, also in Plants of the Gods on page 103, which clearly shows the Greek Goddess Persephone & her hubby (the God of the underworld, Hades), both holding shafts of wheat. Interestingly enough, the fungus which grows on wheat: ergot, is called Claviceps purpurea and notably, purple was associated with the powers of the underworld. So, there is definitive reference to this entheogen, however shrouded in mystery it appears to be to status quo academia. 8)


Peace, love & light

 

[Sally]

the use of datura amongst Hindu Shivite sadhus (as well as hashish and also amanita muscaria) is common knowledge in India and abroad.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that amanita muscaria is not native to India and that the Aryans brought it to the Indus Valley. I knew that the modern Indian sadhus use datura, but how would they have access to amanita muscaria if it came from elsewhere?

Much love,
Sally xx

 

[Rising Spirit]

the use of datura amongst Hindu Shivite sadhus (as well as hashish and also amanita muscaria) is common knowledge in India and abroad.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that amanita muscaria is not native to India and that the Aryans brought it to the Indus Valley. I knew that the modern Indian sadhus use datura, but how would they have access to amanita muscaria if it came from elsewhere?

Much love,
Sally xx

Good question, Sally. I just assumed that since cannabis sativa was likely to be originally imported from the Northern Aryan migratory peoples into the Indus River Valley (as cannabis indica)... that amanita mushies were, as well. Obviously I was intrigued by the possibility and deduced that entheogenic trade routes were in effect, to this very day.

I just took it for granted that if the ancient Vedantic Rishis ritually used amanita muscaria mushrooms in their Soma admixtures, that the same mushrooms would still be available today, to Shivite sadhus within the subcontinent.

They certainly are proliferous in the North of India and across much of Northern Europe & Asia... but in the Southern climate, it would not be likely. That being said, we all know how Sacred Medicine seems to travel to all receptive souls, eh?

I may well have been generalizing, though. Admittedly, I know little of the availability of Fly Agaric to today's wandering Shivite sadhus, so much of my statement was based on random hearsay from friends who traveled India in the 1970's and my own speculation. So, it is largely a theory derived from the above mentioned book and corroborated by personal stories.

Does anyone know if amanitas are still in usage and/or grow freely throughout India these days? Or is the climate too damn hot, except in the Northern regions? :?:

 

[Global]

James Oroc talks a lot about Soma and kykeon though he never says much about them beyond the region they were located in and the fact that they were entheogens.

 

[dreamer042]

Now I don't know how many of you have actually taken amanita muscaria or datura, but in my experience the effects of these plants most definitely do not inspire one to want to compose long vedas singing the praises of their divine magic and beauty.

 

[Global]

Also, is it just me, or does that really old scholar with the hearing aid in the documentary talk with remarkably similar timing and intonation as Terrence McKenna?

 

[MerryPrankster]

Also, is it just me, or does that really old scholar with the hearing aid in the documentary talk with remarkably similar timing and intonation as Terrence McKenna?

I thought that, too.

I'm sure there's an easier way to drink a cactus brew than through your nose! That looked painful/disgusting. I understand, it's cleaning you out and stuff; but ew. I saw a documentary on Ayahuasca, where they injected this tobacco that had been brewing for days and had the consistency of tar up their noses to "purify" them. I don't see the need for this, it looks like pointless suffering.

 

[Rising Spirit]

Just a thought... there is another popular spin on the secret identity of Soma, which easily holds as much weight as Gordon Wasson's theory about amanita muscaria mushrooms. The alternate take is that it was Syrian Rue and hashish blended together, which were made into a drink and thus, inspired the over 1000 mentions of this elixir in the Rig Vedas.

I am not partial to one speculative possibly over the other... yet, this one may be more in keeping with visionary states of consciousness? Remember, oral marijuana can be exponentially enhanced by harmalas and good Asian hashish is more potent than ganja. :shock:

Now, would it be impossible for all four of these Power Plants to have been included in the fabled Soma drink?


Peace, love & light

 

[Sally]

I just assumed that since cannabis sativa was likely to be originally imported from the Northern Aryan migratory peoples into the Indus River Valley (as cannabis indica)... that amanita mushies were, as well.

Well either cannabis sativa is native to the Indus Valley, or that it was introduced and flourished. I saw a considerable amount of cannabis growing in Nepal, so its quite possible that the climate is just right for it there. If Nepal was the local cannabis hotspot, I can imagine the transport of cannabis to India to be easier. It is harder, however, to import mushrooms from European lands and even harder to grow mushrooms out of native soil!

The alternate take is that it was Syrian Rue and hashish blended together, which were made into a drink and thus, inspired the over 1000 mentions of this elixir in the Rig Vedas.

This is an interesting theory also, do you know who came up with it?

Much love,
Sally
xx

 

[Entropymancer]

The alternate take is that it was Syrian Rue and hashish blended together, which were made into a drink and thus, inspired the over 1000 mentions of this elixir in the Rig Vedas.

This is an interesting theory also, do you know who came up with it?

Much love,
Sally
xx

Well, it's important to remember that the vedic soma is only half of the story. Soma, an Indian term, is etymologically identical with haoma, and Iranian term referring to precisely the same sort of substance. It is nearly certain that the Indian soma and Iranian haoma were originally the same substance among the protoindoiranian people before they split into distinct geographical and cultural groups. Haoma is a term that has been used to refer to Peganum harmala, syrian rue, among Iranian cultural groups.

A good book to read regarding the syrian rue identity is Haoma and Harmaline by Stophlet Flattery & Schwartz. A hard copy may be difficult to come by, but the publishers are allowing the full book to be read for free on Google books. It has some factual flaws (for example, it's title; harmine is nearly always present in greater concentration than harmaline in syrian rue), but it makes for good reading nonetheless.

I suppose I differ from most here in that I do not regard the fly agaric, Amanita muscaria, as the most likely candidate for the identity of the Aryan soma/haoma. It's plausible, yes... but then, so are Peganum harmala and Ephedra spp.. Even Argyreia nervosa fits the bill pretty well. To my mind, the issue is practically insoluble, as the identity of the term has clearly changed at multiple points over the years.

At some point in the future, I intend to write my own synopsis of the soma/haoma complex... I personally hesitate to identify a single plant as the original progenitor of the complex, but I think that a neutral treatment of the subject (rather than one set on tenaciously arguing a particular hypothesis as we see in Soma: Divine Mushroom of Immortality or Haoma and Harmaline) would be helpful in shedding a clarifying light on the issue.

However, I'm curious... To everyone who expresses the opinion that soma was an admixture... on what evidence do you base this hypothesis? I've seen no evidence in the vedic texts to support that notion; all of those passages seem to refer pretty clearly to the plant as a singular entity.

 

[Rising Spirit]

This is an interesting theory also, do you know who came up with it?

Much love

I've read a few tings over the years... but I don't recall exactly where? This website goes into an almost fanatical extreme about Syrian Rue. Still, if one bypasses the overly enthusiastic proclamations, it contains some very intriguing ideas. Moses and the "Burning Bush", Zoroaster and his use of Haoma, etc...

Again, it's all theory and speculation but good so see all the data laid out for consideration, eh?

http://dnaactivation.tribe.net/thread/8142eb7d-4d8a-4651-ade3-618bdaf693b0

However, I'm curious... To everyone who expresses the opinion that soma was an admixture... on what evidence do you base this hypothesis? I've seen no evidence in the vedic texts to support that notion; all of those passages seem to refer pretty clearly to the plant as a singular entity.

A good point, as well. I guess I figured, as do many others, that there are no super-powered psychedelics near this region, which alone could send the psychonaut into such exalted states of intoxication. Is it that far out of context that hashish and Syrian Rue could be used in a perfect symbiosis?

I am most intrigued by your suggestion of your future literary efforts! We might we expect this masterpiece to be published, 3-5 years? I'd personally love to read a book with such an interesting subject matter. Also, please share more of your insight about the possible nature of Soma. :idea:

 

[Global]

I think the extinction of whatever plant constituted soma shouldn't be ruled out either. It could be an entirely lost cause.

 

[Rising Spirit]

I think the extinction of whatever plant constituted soma shouldn't be ruled out either. It could be an entirely lost cause.

Yeah... you might have something there? Fact is, the Indus River Valley underwent dramatic climatic changes and the original peoples of the Mohenjo Darro and Harappan civilization, the Dravidians (pre-Aryan human beings), were forced to migrate South towards the Ganges. This speculation flies-in-the-face of those who believe that the Aryans pushed them South through military force (dare I suggest a racist agenda?).

I may well have been a mutual coexistence between these peoples, as there is absolutely NO EVIDENSE of a significant violent take-over. It has long been a popular theory but little archaeological evidence supports a massive military invasion. :idea:

It is not an unfounded idea that plant species can go extinct due to extreme environmental changes. That being said, it was the Aryans who so praised the Soma and not the Dravidians, who predated their "invaders" presence on the subcontinent. This does suggest that they knew of this plant-based elixir before migrating into Indian territory.

Interesting conception, Global, extinction. I have my doubts, though. Say, does anyone have a crystal ball? My Magic 8-Ball just can't seem to come up with anything specific. Hehehe... :lol:

 

[Global]

It was also proposed in the documentary that with the recreational use of Soma, those who respected it would rather "let it go" or something along those lines than allow its continued recreational use. I'm not suggesting that it was purposefully eradicated so much as perhaps it was allowed to become extinct without pursuing its protection and cultivation.

 

[Rising Spirit]

Now, would it be impossible for all four of these Power Plants to have been included in the fabled Soma drink?

Well Rising Spirit, you seem like a nice fellow (sincere but essentially reality-challenged) but this makes no sense at all. You've said quite a few flighty things in the last few years on the Nexus... but this one takes the cake! Who would mix a MAOI inhibitor like Syrian rue, with a deadly nightshade like datura? It is a toxic plant, after all. I suggest you go back tot he drawing board.

I'm not suggesting that it was purposefully eradicated so much as perhaps it was allowed to become extinct without pursuing its protection and cultivation.

Hmmm... I have my serious doubts about such a theory, which was proposed in this documentary series. In our culture, the contemporary Western World, illegality attempts to do the very same thing and it can't effectively do the job. Why would the Rishis voluntarily hit the self-destruct button on Soma???

For the life of me, I can't picture a sect of religious visionary zealots, letting the central axiom & source of their spiritual insight, disintegrate just because other folks used it to irreverently party. It's just too simplistic an idea... too damn convenient. Would you do so? I certainly wouldn't. 8) :shock: :lol:

 

[dreamer042]

I've often wondered if haoma + fly agaric could be capable of producing the divine ecstasies described in the vedas...

Just as I was thinking about this again, I notice someone posted their recent experience with aya+amanita+ganja and described it as heaven.

The idea vibes well with me, have no idea if it's anywhere near the truth but it makes sense.

As per combining harmalas and nightshades, Toe (datura) is a very common ayahuasca admixture in the amazon.
*Disclaimer: Datura is used as admixture by experienced amazonian shamans, don't try this at home*