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animism and shamanry

Migrated topic.
right on...
its interesting... especially among people on this forum i feel that there is a real interest in the exploration motive in peoples relationships with entheogens. What i find interesting though is the shaman archetypes relationship to that motive in the western mind. Traditional peoples we have come to label as shamans (whether its an apt label at all) I have not seen as having much of that same motivation. many where there to help as mediators with the spirits of the natural world, maintain ritual customs, preform healing and divination and to bring a cultures cosmology into the public sanctum. now this last part... in maintianing and bringing an animist cultures cosmology into public consciousness, now that is interesting in the light of the motive of exploration.

It could be said that so many are drawn to entheogens with the motive of exploration because they do not have a cosmology, or at least a collective one that has any real depth of meaning. science has replaced myth ( or so it thinks, but what is science but another myth?) and our old cosmologies our understanding of self and our its place int he universe has been striped bare, dissected, and replaced with a sterile meaningless lack of awe, for many... for others its brought about the desire to explore these wonders that science has revealed. but still we are without a cosmology. shamans or those that we have labeled as thus in animist societies... have a cosmology. they know enough and are humble enough to that which they do not know to (KNOW BETTER) to work as agents of change from within that cosmology. I tend to think then that people confuse the shaman as the explorer of consciousness for a given society and leave it at that. its very common... ive read magazine articles about it even recently. people tend to forget that those we have labeled as in traditional animist cultures, where the primary health care providers, the mediators, the law, and much more. but explorer was not really in their job description. they knew their cultures cosmology already exploration only validated it and was thus not as big of a focus. for those in our society though, we lack that cosmology. we need to discover a meaningful cosmology so that we can apply spiritual insight and ability.
So another interesting idea... and one that Eliade prompted ( he wasnt all bad) was that there were shamans before there where gods... I would go a step further and say that before there was a role that we would call shaman there where just sensitive yet strong and intuitive individuals that explored and shared their imaginative insights, they where those that discovered cosmology or at least put it together with the aid of the others in their community that like them had taken notice that they lived in a living world of great depth and meaning.
another and more fascinating way of putting it would be that before there where shamans and gods and cosmologies that there where persons who were apt enough for the intelligence of the whole to express itself through, to explain itself to its self through in ways that where able to aid individuals in perpetuating the whole, the totality of existences knowlegde of itself as well as further cultivate its own sense of purpose and meaning. that to me is just a gourgous way of looking at it.

so to me the interest in shamans as explorers today is slightly missing the point but at the same time, it creates this juxtapose... people go back to this very ancient memory and find inspiration from peoples who have not needed to change their way of life ( ie traditional animsit peoples), so that they can rediscover the the wholes, the totalities, the universes own sense of purpose and self knowledge through their own human experience.
they explore and are inspired by shamans so that they can make a place for shamans again, so that they can co-create emergent cosmologies, so that they can bring about depth of meaning again to a world starving for it, and heal rifts in our understanding of self and the very real wounds and death that that lack of understanding bring about in the world.
 
in that respect.. one might say that in the exploration of conciousness of todays modern entheogenic explorers, the exploration is at once the discovery of a new cosmology and an act of healing ( very much the work of a shaman in some respects), because what we are healing is the wound that our current social and ecological crisis's have created in our sense of self and its relationship in the universe.

we need shamans again but before that we need a place and a way for shamans to work and be in our society.

years ago i went to peru and met with a college. another plant teacher curandero, a maestro. we sat and just shared with each other about our work, like two freinds. What I was left with after that meeting was that there was a place for him in his society. the role was present and accepted as was a cosmology for him to work within. To me thats where the real work is now, in establishing and protecting that.
 
balaganist said:
LLB said:
"The core of the soul of the west's idea of shamanism is not factual at all, but fantastic, fictive, a work of imagination."

but Noel doesn't mean this in utter criticism, because there is nothing wrong with imagination at all. So here is where i stand with that "shamanism" as we have been taught about from non-traditional teachers in the west, are really talking about an ideal, and imagined and romaticised role based upon what it is that we in the west need most today. the concept of shaman and indeed the word and definition itself is a manufactured one, it is ambiguous because we have not fully recognized that what we are attempting to describe is western mans unconscious need for a spiritual relationship with the unknown in synthesis with nature, its at once a unconscious need being expressed from the western imagination and a morning for what we feel we must have lost through the process of the modern industrialization of western culture, which if you think about is what J.R.R Tolkien was writing about in the lord of the ring series.

Its there for very important that when we are thinking about shamans and discussing them that we recognize this as well as recognize that we are discussing not a cultural phenomena at all or perhaps even a role, but that we must speak about it specifically in the the terms of the cultures we are discussing or in the case of discussing our own "shamanry" that it is an aspect of our imagination and co-creativity, it is need fulfillment that is being discussed by a culture/society that has lost track of what they truly need collectively and individually.

Thats very true, and it made me realise how I've been romanticising shamanism - which to me is about exploring conciousness and learning to navigate different realms, to act as a sense organ for your society that is partly in other worlds/realities/states of conciousness, where there are spirits/entities or facets of ourselves that may help or hinder us.
I see its potential in helping us move forward and learn from different states of being. I have regained fascination and respect for old shamanic traditions, especially due to recent experiences - its almost like learning to walk again, or learning a new language.. or maybe un-learning. I feel like a new aspect of my purpose for existence has opened up... for the last 15 years it has been music; I have never had anything pulling me as much as my new quest for knowledge, apart from music.

I agree, shamanism is a queste, a mission, a serious job. It is a path leading somewhere.
 
Blessings. Anyways, amazing posts again. I wonder about that Peru trip, you haven´t got much people been lucky to do this. How much amazing was that? Isn´t curandero a declination of an vegetalista? Do I use the term ,amazing´ way too often, ha ha :lol:?
 
Ayawasqero said:
Blessings. Anyways, amazing posts again. I wonder about that Peru trip, you haven´t got much people been lucky to do this. How much amazing was that? Isn´t curandero a declination of an vegetalista? Do I use the term ,amazing´ way too often, ha ha :lol:?

the trip was ok, there where lots of brujos that i met, people i would not even want to work with. this one though he was just a regular guy, and humble about his work, and a total tripper too, i liked him right away!
actually vegetalistas are a specific type of curandero, they are curanderos that work with plant spirits to heal and to divine or find lost things. vegetalista is a word thats sort of synonymous with i guess you could say spirit herbalist. THis man was a Hauchumero or a san pedro cactus curandero.

its interesting south american have adopted the word shaman, pronouncing it chaman and have used it to define one of three different practitioners down there. a chaman is one who does both good and bad, heals and harms, they are traditional and usually tribally affiliated. a curandero is JUST a healer, does not do any harm to any one ever. a brujo is one that does specifically just harm, they are immoral and have power to kill, and manipulate others with their will and the aid of the spirits.
these are also i might add all post colonial concepts, they are new to the way of think thus the way of relating, they indicate a change and a possible influence from catholic doctrine, on moral duality.

these terms and their ways of defining themselves and what they do have changed to fulfill the needs of the society.

i tend to think that that shows the plasticity of the role of the spiritual practitioner in and among animist peoples.
what can we learn from that?

can we co-create new ways of relating to spiritual/physical needs in our society in a way that has depth and meaning, that are culturally and temporally relevant to current needs? I see my self as a spirit power man, and a soul healer. the term shaman will do in a pinch but i think its much wiser to co-create new ways of understanding, and even new vocabularies, new languages, and the rediscovery of new words... like Autochthon for example... this word defines me to the tee!
 
Amazing. I would like to use ayahuasca for finding lost things, because I lost everything all the time, :lol:. I even got my things to find with ayahuasca list, but a good ayahuasca is hard to come by, way too expensive and for healing purposes. Oh, those brujos. Ethymology of a term ,shaman´ is simply amazing, as the way of shamanism (,shamanry´) from late paleolite to Upper Amazon. Then we are colleagues, nice to meet You, :). Do You heal only soul. If so, why? What the heck does ,Autochthon´ mean? I know it comes from Greek, but... Rather than inventning new terms we ought to upgrade the language way up to another level, onwards to the visible language... Should we? Much blessings!
P. S. If it´s not too intimate, what do You do for livelihoods? Peace!
 
it means self and place are one. it was a part of greek philospohy... after all the greeks where native to greece and proud of it, it was a part of their identiy being that place...
its an important word to reintroduce to our vocabularies.
 
Ayawasqero said:
Amazing. I would like to use ayahuasca for finding lost things, because I lost everything all the time, :lol:. I even got my things to find with ayahuasca list, but a good ayahuasca is hard to come by, way too expensive and for healing purposes. Oh, those brujos. Ethymology of a term ,shaman´ is simply amazing, as the way of shamanism (,shamanry´) from late paleolite to Upper Amazon. Then we are colleagues, nice to meet You, :). Do You heal only soul. If so, why? What the heck does ,Autochthon´ mean? I know it comes from Greek, but... Rather than inventning new terms we ought to upgrade the language way up to another level, onwards to the visible language... Should we? Much blessings!
P. S. If it´s not too intimate, what do You do for livelihoods? Peace!


you know when you get down to it... the eytemology of shaman is a pretty funny thing...
it was originaly saman and it meant "one who know", language being fairly practical among animist people ( often their word for themselves just being the people) you could see that the word itself just came from people saying hey we got this problem get the one that knows... or "hey he knows!" " he talks to the spirits he knows!" ect... cracks me up...

the term shaman is much like the word curry, or so my friend pointed out to me the other day... curry just meant sauce, just like chai just meant tea and marsala just meant mix. however chai, marsala and curry are all now specific things based upon linguistic misunderstandings. so now we have a plant called curry, and a dish called curry, and curry just still to this day means sauce... but now because of all the confusion one word means a whole host of things...
with the term shaman its the same thing... but people have used the word so much for some many things its nearly lost its meaning! shamanic is thrown around so much its become moronic... "hi im a shamanic massage therapist, i have you visualize your totem animals while i work on you"... ect... whats that mean? So it seems that we have lost our ability to communicate... sigh... yes we need new words, we need them badly, we also need to rediscover old words that we no longer use any more, like autochton for example seeing how so much of "english" is latin and greek based any way. the idea i had many years ago was to listen to the land to spirit and to allow it to speak of itself through itself ie your mouth lol... the results are very interesting... i recently met a shamanic pracitioner whos teacher was from idaho. this woman told me that her teacher didnt even like using the word shaman any more... that they called themselves ishkahey which to them meant crazy people. i foudn that very interesting, because in trance sessions with entheogens over and over again the word that kept coming to me was shooshkahey which meant power people. when i told her about this she got really excited and said that the word came from the akashic records... no wi dont know about that personally i told her... but my feeling was that it was what the spirit of the land called this part of its self i call me. So i think its even better to commune with spirit, and with the land and see what it calls something or some one rather...


"Do You heal only soul. If so, why?"
you want to tell me whats not soul? ;)
and as far as visible language is concerned... we allready have been doing that for a long time... im doing that right now... im typing...
 
LLB said:
it means self and place are one. it was a part of greek philospohy... after all the greeks where native to greece and proud of it, it was a part of their identiy being that place...
its an important word to reintroduce to our vocabularies.

Why?
 
LLB said:
Ayawasqero said:
Amazing. I would like to use ayahuasca for finding lost things, because I lost everything all the time, :lol:. I even got my things to find with ayahuasca list, but a good ayahuasca is hard to come by, way too expensive and for healing purposes. Oh, those brujos. Ethymology of a term ,shaman´ is simply amazing, as the way of shamanism (,shamanry´) from late paleolite to Upper Amazon. Then we are colleagues, nice to meet You, :). Do You heal only soul. If so, why? What the heck does ,Autochthon´ mean? I know it comes from Greek, but... Rather than inventning new terms we ought to upgrade the language way up to another level, onwards to the visible language... Should we? Much blessings!
P. S. If it´s not too intimate, what do You do for livelihoods? Peace!


you know when you get down to it... the eytemology of shaman is a pretty funny thing...
it was originaly saman and it meant "one who know", language being fairly practical among animist people ( often their word for themselves just being the people) you could see that the word itself just came from people saying hey we got this problem get the one that knows... or "hey he knows!" " he talks to the spirits he knows!" ect... cracks me up...

the term shaman is much like the word curry, or so my friend pointed out to me the other day... curry just meant sauce, just like chai just meant tea and marsala just meant mix. however chai, marsala and curry are all now specific things based upon linguistic misunderstandings. so now we have a plant called curry, and a dish called curry, and curry just still to this day means sauce... but now because of all the confusion one word means a whole host of things...
with the term shaman its the same thing... but people have used the word so much for some many things its nearly lost its meaning! shamanic is thrown around so much its become moronic... "hi im a shamanic massage therapist, i have you visualize your totem animals while i work on you"... ect... whats that mean? So it seems that we have lost our ability to communicate... sigh... yes we need new words, we need them badly, we also need to rediscover old words that we no longer use any more, like autochton for example seeing how so much of "english" is latin and greek based any way. the idea i had many years ago was to listen to the land to spirit and to allow it to speak of itself through itself ie your mouth lol... the results are very interesting... i recently met a shamanic pracitioner whos teacher was from idaho. this woman told me that her teacher didnt even like using the word shaman any more... that they called themselves ishkahey which to them meant crazy people. i foudn that very interesting, because in trance sessions with entheogens over and over again the word that kept coming to me was shooshkahey which meant power people. when i told her about this she got really excited and said that the word came from the akashic records... no wi dont know about that personally i told her... but my feeling was that it was what the spirit of the land called this part of its self i call me. So i think its even better to commune with spirit, and with the land and see what it calls something or some one rather...


"Do You heal only soul. If so, why?"
you want to tell me whats not soul? ;)
and as far as visible language is concerned... we allready have been doing that for a long time... im doing that right now... im typing...

Geesh!
The term saman actually comes from the language of tunguzi, in Siberia, Central Asia.
The definition of the term shaman comes from the language of Sani, Kenya, Central Africa.
In: Graham Hancock, Supernatural.
Wittgenstein says, that man is imprisoned in language like a fly in a bottle. I guess that this happens to words when you use them too often. They lost it´s meaning, like in one of Poe´s novel (Berenice). Language itself is an interesting phenomena, being a psychedelic phenomena, sometimes an agent. I guess it would be interesting to discover the relationship between the mushrooms of language and the language itself. Language have it´s structure, codified in grammar, and evolution, from an ordinary one the the visible one.
So that is an curandero, the ishkahey/shooshkahey... Are You a some kind of globetrotter? :)
Akashic records... or synchronicity?
So You must be deeply rooted in land.
The body.
Yeah, right. :lol:
 
Ayawasqero said:
LLB said:
it means self and place are one. it was a part of greek philospohy... after all the greeks where native to greece and proud of it, it was a part of their identiy being that place...
its an important word to reintroduce to our vocabularies.

Why?

well it is important for some people... for some people it is important to identify self and the land as one... bioregionalists for example find it important as do both new and traditional animists.


"So that is an curandero, the ishkahey/shooshkahey... Are You a some kind of globetrotter? "

nope... i stay in one place most of the time...

"Akashic records... or synchronicity?"

no clue...

"So You must be deeply rooted in land.
The body.
Yeah, right."

yes I am.

"The term saman actually comes from the language of tunguzi, in Siberia, Central Asia.
The definition of the term shaman comes from the language of Sani, Kenya, Central Africa. "

how does the definition come from africa?

it seems your getting really into the mckenna visible language stuff... interesting but i tend to think its kinda a dead end.
i personally do not think man is imprisoned in language. to me language can be very liberating.
 
LLB said:
Ayawasqero said:
LLB said:
it means self and place are one. it was a part of greek philospohy... after all the greeks where native to greece and proud of it, it was a part of their identiy being that place...
its an important word to reintroduce to our vocabularies.

Why?

well it is important for some people... for some people it is important to identify self and the land as one... bioregionalists for example find it important as do both new and traditional animists.


"So that is an curandero, the ishkahey/shooshkahey... Are You a some kind of globetrotter? "

nope... i stay in one place most of the time...

"Akashic records... or synchronicity?"

no clue...

"So You must be deeply rooted in land.
The body.
Yeah, right."

yes I am.

"The term saman actually comes from the language of tunguzi, in Siberia, Central Asia.
The definition of the term shaman comes from the language of Sani, Kenya, Central Africa. "

how does the definition come from africa?

it seems your getting really into the mckenna visible language stuff... interesting but i tend to think its kinda a dead end.
i personally do not think man is imprisoned in language. to me language can be very liberating.

Peru, Idaho...

Does not the concept of the akashic records come from India?

From the Sani shamans.

TKM says, that the tykes do teach us a new, perfected way of language. The concept of synestetic language is actually very old (starting probably in the late paleolite with all that sympathetic magick), for example in on of the Rimbaud´s symbolistic poems. Remember that surrealistic paintings from Magritte with ,C´est ne une pipe´? Words are just stickers we give onto things (not from my head! :lol:).
Blame Wittgenstein. For example, slang.
 
peru, idaho?
what are you talking about?
the akashic records is from india...( actually it was made up by the theosophic society) but those where her words... i dont even care... personally thats not my trip.
and i still dont see how your connecting the definition to the sani shamans...
your not communicating clearly...
 
LLB said:
peru, idaho?
what are you talking about?
the akashic records is from india...( actually it was made up by the theosophic society) but those where her words... i dont even care... personally thats not my trip.
and i still dont see how your connecting the definition to the sani shamans...
your not communicating clearly...

Oh, then my deepest apologies.
Didn´t You wrote You were in Peru and Idaho?
I was just reading in the above mentioned book that this definition comes from the language of the people of Sani (the Bushmen).
Once again, I apologize myself.
 
SWIMS been to peru and idaho, but thats not was i was talking about. the woman i had talked to her teacher was in idaho.
I was not aware of how the definition of shaman"ism" came from africa... from what i gathered it came from anthropologists.
 
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