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animism and shamanry

Migrated topic.
LLB said:
SWIMS been to peru and idaho, but thats not was i was talking about. the woman i had talked to her teacher was in idaho.
I was not aware of how the definition of shaman"ism" came from africa... from what i gathered it came from anthropologists.
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All correct then.
It does seems like I have to write here the hole article about it from the mentioned source.
Bye now!
 
could you just paraphrase it down a bit? or google books can some times give you a page PDF you can link to...
i just do not see how the definition of shaman comes from africa...
my point is that there really is no actual real working definition of shaman from a western perspective that is applicable as a streched out word that can label indigenous peoples.
 
exactly... they used the tungus people as their primordial sterotype and then projected that onto every other animist and indigneous culture in the world.
 
I remember always reading that the word "shaman" actually only pertains to those from Siberia.
Other than that, it is a word that has been generalized by pop culture over time into the word we now recognize as any medicine man-type of figure in an indigenous people.

Like the Curenderos & Vegallista of Puru & the Amazon area often refereed to as Shamen

Anyway...

WS
 
exactly! many native american activists will point out that they do not have shamans in their tribes, its just not a part of their tradition... to say that they have the equivalent denies some very important distinctive difference, that indicate that the unique needs and demands of a culture, as well as how we might learn about them as well as conciousness and our speices in general.
Some of the first real debates on this subject surrounded whether the african traditions of trance possession was indeed shamanism, because it was being labeled as such. but what is interesting is that theres really no such thing as shamanism any way( its a bit of an arbitrary humpty dumpty word as well as concept and definition) but what there is, is people doing some thing that humans seem to do but in infinitely varible ways... when we start to look at those ways for what they are and we start instead of labeling these traditional metaphysical practioners under one humpty dumpty word, and listening to them and their definitions and labels themselves we begin to learn some thing amazing.

what it does is direct the question in a way that brings new understanding... if native americans say they do not have shamans... then what do they have, what makes them unique and differant then the siberian people or the mayan people ect... and what are their simularities?
 
Excellent points!

Some of my friends are now saying I'm a 'shaman' just because I've been telling them about spice and aya experiences, and extractions etc... And my reasons are for knowledge seeking more than anything.
It does make me cringe a bit though as I regard myself as still at the beginning of the shamanic path or whatever you want to call it, and people tend to throw that word around without knowing what it means or where it comes from.

I do think however, it is useful to have a general word to describe those who learn to traverse alternate realities and bring back knowledge and insights. Perhaps we need a new word to describe what people are doing now..? Neo-shamanry? :p

LLB said:
exactly! many native american activists will point out that they do not have shamans in their tribes, its just not a part of their tradition... to say that they have the equivalent denies some very important distinctive difference, that indicate that the unique needs and demands of a culture, as well as how we might learn about them as well as conciousness and our speices in general.
Some of the first real debates on this subject surrounded whether the african traditions of trance possession was indeed shamanism, because it was being labeled as such. but what is interesting is that theres really no such thing as shamanism any way( its a bit of an arbitrary humpty dumpty word as well as concept and definition) but what there is, is people doing some thing that humans seem to do but in infinitely varible ways... when we start to look at those ways for what they are and we start instead of labeling these traditional metaphysical practioners under one humpty dumpty word, and listening to them and their definitions and labels themselves we begin to learn some thing amazing.

what it does is direct the question in a way that brings new understanding... if native americans say they do not have shamans... then what do they have, what makes them unique and differant then the siberian people or the mayan people ect... and what are their simularities?
Click to expand...
 
How about we break it down...
the word shaman just means one who knows in tungus...
So if you break it down linguistically... what we and the tungus are talking about is one who knows something... if people just said one who knows instead of shaman it would be an interesting cognative change in how we relate to this topic...
what do we mean when we say one who knows some thing?
what do they know about?
and what makes them different then other people in other cultures that are say priests that know something? or scientists...
my argument is that what we are talking about are a people who know something from an animist perspective root in place...
 
LLB said:
How about we break it down...
the word shaman just means one who knows in tungus...
So if you break it down linguistically... what we and the tungus are talking about is one who knows something... if people just said one who knows instead of shaman it would be an interesting cognative change in how we relate to this topic...
what do we mean when we say one who knows some thing?
what do they know about?
and what makes them different then other people in other cultures that are say priests that know something? or scientists...
my argument is that what we are talking about are a people who know something from an animist perspective root in place...
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Did I make a mistake? I´ll try to find it out.
They know how is it going in the universe and use it for healing.
 
So the term ,saman´ comes really from Tunguzi.
As seen on: Michael Ripinsky-Naxon, The Nature of Shamanism: Substance and Function of a Religious Metaphor, State University of New York Press, 1993, p. 69.
Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.
 
Peter T. Furst, professor of anthropology on the University of the State New York and scientific fellow-worker of the Botanical institute of the University of Albany, uses term ,animistic-shamanic religious system´ in his book Hallucinogens and culture. So I might give You a little credit and/or credibility, dearest LLB.
 
Iv e met and talked with Peter hes a very nice man. I am not sure that the term animist-shamanic religious system is altogether too accurate any more however. Its had its place but i think we need to move past that if we are to better understand as well as articulate what we are really getting at when we are talking about it... even though lets work with what dear ol Furst had to say.
if what we are talking about is a animist-shamanic religious system... then what we are talking about when we say that is animist being a relational ontology and shamanic being the way of people who know... those words put together to explain a particular religious system would be those who know about relational ontology.
saying the words with out really understanding them fails to clarify and communicate what it is that is truly being perceived. shamanic is thrown around left and right all the time... "hey i just got this totally shamanic enema the other day like wow man..."
So when some one talks about something being shamanic, it would mean something that is known by those that know relational ontology.
 
LLB said:
Iv e met and talked with Peter hes a very nice man. I am not sure that the term animist-shamanic religious system is altogether too accurate any more however. Its had its place but i think we need to move past that if we are to better understand as well as articulate what we are really getting at when we are talking about it... even though lets work with what dear ol Furst had to say.
if what we are talking about is a animist-shamanic religious system... then what we are talking about when we say that is animist being a relational ontology and shamanic being the way of people who know... those words put together to explain a particular religious system would be those who know about relational ontology.
saying the words with out really understanding them fails to clarify and communicate what it is that is truly being perceived. shamanic is thrown around left and right all the time... "hey i just got this totally shamanic enema the other day like wow man..."
So when some one talks about something being shamanic, it would mean something that is known by those that know relational ontology.
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Cool folks, indeed...
,Relational ontology'?
Psychedelic enema is shamanic by it self, I suppose.
Peace, bro.
 
Ayawasqero said:
Psychedelic enema is shamanic by it self, I suppose.
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Hi all, I am all totally new here and I really enjoy the conversation.

I was just wondering what is the psychedelic enema and how it is shamanic. I have had enemas with many psychedelics and recreational drugs as a means of shamanistic divination but I found them only borderline shamanistic (with the strict sense of the word). The main problem was the lack of purging and the uncomfortable sexual stimulation due to enema administration.

Do sexuality and shamanism go hand by hand? How about the necessary difficulties a shaman needs to go through to reach divination?
 
Shaman_on_MDMA said:
Ayawasqero said:
Psychedelic enema is shamanic by it self, I suppose.
Click to expand...
Hi all, I am all totally new here and I really enjoy the conversation.

I was just wondering what is the psychedelic enema and how it is shamanic. I have had enemas with many psychedelics and recreational drugs as a means of shamanistic divination but I found them only borderline shamanistic (with the strict sense of the word). The main problem was the lack of purging and the uncomfortable sexual stimulation due to enema administration.

Do sexuality and shamanism go hand by hand? How about the necessary difficulties a shaman needs to go through to reach divination?
Click to expand...

Hi, I'm glad You're enjoying the conversation.
You know, the enema with an high amount of DMT... It is a part of an Carribean and Mezoamerican, maybe South american shamanism. For more info consult for example work mentioned above, that of P. T. Furst.
I think yes, but this is a topic for a study. Well, divination is just one of the basic shamanic skillz. You need some divination technique varying from I Ching to ayahuasca, that's all. DMT is a good divination technology.
Peace, mi bredda!
 
Ayawasqero said:
Hi, I'm glad You're enjoying the conversation.
You know, the enema with an high amount of DMT... It is a part of an Carribean and Mezoamerican, maybe South american shamanism. For more info consult for example work mentioned above, that of P. T. Furst.
I think yes, but this is a topic for a study. Well, divination is just one of the basic shamanic skillz. You need some divination technique varying from I Ching to ayahuasca, that's all. DMT is a good divination technology.
Peace, mi bredda!
Click to expand...
Is it really true? How can I then do it like those shamans? My sincere apologies if i'm asking too much, I just find the topic fascinating!

And as far as the diviniation techniques, what do you mean by I Ching? what is this?

And how dmt is good diviniation technology? Isn't mushrooms or cacti good diviniation technology as well? I asume you mean that "diviniation technology" is something like "diviniation hack"? i.e. instead of medicating for days and days to reach the divine you do it instantly with psychedelics?
 
Shaman_on_MDMA said:
Ayawasqero said:
Hi, I'm glad You're enjoying the conversation.
You know, the enema with an high amount of DMT... It is a part of an Carribean and Mezoamerican, maybe South american shamanism. For more info consult for example work mentioned above, that of P. T. Furst.
I think yes, but this is a topic for a study. Well, divination is just one of the basic shamanic skillz. You need some divination technique varying from I Ching to ayahuasca, that's all. DMT is a good divination technology.
Peace, mi bredda!
Click to expand...
Is it really true? How can I then do it like those shamans? My sincere apologies if i'm asking too much, I just find the topic fascinating!

And as far as the diviniation techniques, what do you mean by I Ching? what is this?

And how dmt is good diviniation technology? Isn't mushrooms or cacti good diviniation technology as well? I asume you mean that "diviniation technology" is something like "diviniation hack"? i.e. instead of medicating for days and days to reach the divine you do it instantly with psychedelics?
Click to expand...

I´m sure it is. Brew and extract yr own DMT enema. Hold on, I´m gonna bring You soon more info. That´s all right, and agree, it is fascinating.

An 5000 yrs old Chinese book. Highly magic stuff.

You just look in to the 4th dimension to look what´s going to happen. Particuralry, but both them serve mainly to healing. Precisely, you have to use the proper hi tech oraculum.

Peace & love, mi bredda!
 
But what do you mean by 4th dimension? I assume that this is time and you tell me that I have to look back in the past? Sorry if I want something to be written sometimes in plain simple words, i might be a shaman but i am not super super smart, :) :) :) hihihi
 
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