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Another Stab at Salt

Migrated topic.

Noman

Rising Star
Senior Member
OG Pioneer
I was torturing myself by rereading Quantum Tantra's tek and came across a snippet of information that might be useful if true: " All DMT salts are insoluble in non-polar solvents -- with the exception of DMT acetate -- which is soluble in chlorinated non-polar solvents such as chloroform and DCM. Thus if you are using white vinegar (acetic acid) as your acid, you will need to use naptha or ether to defat as chloroform or DCM would extract the DMT acetate along with the oils and fats, defeating the purpose of this step." This would mean that one could extract MHRB with vinegar, defat with naptha, and then extract DMT acetate with DCM and evap. I dont know if DMT acetate is a nice dry snortable powder, but it seems worth a go if one could get some pure DCM or chloroform.
 
lol that's exactly what i was wondering there'd be a few ways, perhaps snort 20mg of dmt freebase and then in an hour snort a corresponding amount of this stuff and compare effects, should be the same (20mg of freebase would equal something like 30mg of dmt tartrate) check for solubility in water perhaps do an oral dose i guess once you confirm that it's active you could basify and collect your freebase and see if the weights etc.. add up and test for BP
 
This might be a little OT. But for applying low heat i use a small table halogen lamp. Its 20W and i can regulate the heat with the distance of the lamp. Might be usefull for evaping water at low temperature.
 
Melting point is a standard used for ID and quality assurance, also odour, colour ... crystal form ... MP alone says alot. I heard that you defat the excess acetate out of the aqueous a a certain pH. And I'm trying to remember but, if dmt-acetate is a charged molecule at pH 1.8- 2.0, then try to follow this; dmt-acetate 'looks' like this: (+)H-DMT-OOCCH3(-) or (-)CH3COO-DMT-H(+) .... with the DMT-H+ being the positively 'charged' dmt-in-acid molecule. This bonds to the negatively charged CH3COO- (acetate) molecule. At the right pH, both are floating in solution and dmt-acetate is soluble because it has a bit of both negative and positive charges on it. So start with dmt dissolved in acetic acid to get dmt-acetate and free, excess acetate. (Add acetic acid to water, then dissolve in dmt). Using just the right molar amount of acetic acid-to-dmt will make a minimum amount of 'excess' acetate to clean up. You could use too much dmt, if you exceeded the molar amount of actic acid used. To get rid of the excess, I think you have to make all the excess acetate (CH3COO-) in there become protonated and therefore uncharged and insoluble (ie add more H+ to get CH3COOH ). Acetic acid has a pKa of 4.7, so simply make the aqueous with dmt-acetate even more acid with a drop of HCL, to pH 1.8 or 2.0. ( making up numbers here folks ... it may just be pH 3 is enough..!) Then, with the aqueous at pH 1.8, adding a NP solvent like good ol' naphtha will suck out the free acetic acid but leave behind the charged dmt-acetate. Now evaporate the aqueous, and you should get dmt-acetate to scrape up. ... no..?! With dmt dissolved in acid aqueous solution, much is in our favour - the solubility of dmt is possible in water from pH of 2 to 8.5 because it has a POSITIVE charge. Acteate is CH3COO-, and is negative. When you lower pH you add 100's of times more H+'s to combine with the negative charges, like on CH3COO- to get CH3COOH. But I confess I'm just musing aloud, wandering around in my memory with my chemisty shoes on again... Also I seem to believe that some amounts of acetate and fumarate 'safe' contaminants to have in an injectable solution..? which this is because they are simple carbohydrates that your body makes and uses all the time...?
 
That's right, I think; too much H+ added could be bad for yeild. The excess H+ could split appart some of the loosely 'bonded' molecules of the dmt-acetate. Then the (+H)-DMT-(CH3COO)- becomes (H+)-DMT and CH3COOH. But dissolved in solution, these molecular forms are always switching back and forth, and dmt-acetate is always present by things reacting backwards again. You would get reduced yeild from missing the mark on the 'best' pH to use, but I wonder if you'd ever get 0% yeild..? But as far as excess H+ contaminating yeild, I guess it would be harmelss once evaporating all the acidified water, since H+ would be evaporating too no..?. Molar just means how many molecules of H+, CH3COO-, dmt-acetate are present. So you'd choose to use one mole of dmt-freebase added to one mole of acetic acid - this is all calculable and weighable in advance. There's probably a correct temperature to use too, like a cool defat, as heat will break appart more dmt-acetate molecules in acid solution. I go here for chemistry numbers, and there are cool molecular models: Acetic acid - Wikipedia Formic acid - Wikipedia If I remember Strassman's book correctly ( or somewhere I read...) the reason to use the 'small' organic acids to make an injectable dmt salt, such as these two, is for their low molecular weights. The organic acid salts of dmt are easier to melt and solubilize in the IV solution. Otherwise when choosing an organic acid to use, I think the pKa is a consideration - Compare the pKa of the above two organic acids to HCl .>>! Hydrochloric acid - Wikipedia
 
I really don't know about tartaric acid ... it looks huge - Tartaric acid - Wikipedia Strassman's tests used tartarate for the IV no..? can one tartaric acid molecule 'hold' more than one dmt molecule, in making a dmt-tartarate salt..? I thought citrate was too big and complex, so the salts of these stay as oily liquids, I wonder..? But really, even though I think about these things, I ain't no chemist, and I know hardly anything at all ! ... (disclaimer...) Like this error, I type-oed and and said 'formic' instead of ... "fumaric" .. .. this was what I meant above, although a [i:91dedc3112]formic[/i:91dedc3112]-dmt salt sounds cool too: Fumaric acid - Wikipedia
 
If I remember my chemistry, H3O+ will not evaporate but rather salt out with a negative ion. If you're protonating a weak acid then evaporating the water off, you're going to be left with the salt form of your strong acid as a contaminant... last I checked, IV doeses of HCl are a bad idea. Ideally, you'd want to use an excess of a safe weak acid that will form an insoluble salt with DMT, and precipitate out upon reaction. You'd need to do multiple filtrations and let the equilibrium reaction settle between removal of the precipitate, but patience should generate an acceptably high yield with this method. I'd probably think this would be easiest in a solvent that isn't water... salts tend to be highly polar. Perhaps an alcohol which will dissolve DMT and the acid, but is not polar enough to dissolve the product? Sounds doable... but I'm not sure where to point you to start. Shulgin's various synthesis may present some useful info to the chemically inclined. My brief scanning suggested the third paragraph (demethylation of the chloride salt) would be the most mineable, but I'm too sleepy to dissect the reactions going on there. Additionally, this from the very bottom: "Early human studies involving the injection of solutions of the hydrochloride apparently made by dissolving DMT base in dilute aqueous HCl, and neutralizing this with base to achieve an end pH of appropriate 6. "
 
SWIM is currently making DMT acetate of 320mg of DMT base. Evaping in progress now. What should SWIM do laiter to clean the remaining acid out of the product ?. SWIM got access to HPLC grade Heptane, DCM, Methanol, Isopropanol and Diethyl Ether
 
I thought Acetic Acid (like HCL) was volitile and will completely evaporate??? If that is the case, why not put the DMT into acetic acid and evaporate... then put into steril distilled water and bingo, ready for (theoretical) injection?
 
Diethyl ether !~ ... precious stuff ! So does dmt-acetate stay in solution at room temp..? Or does it fall out right away...? I assume it's soluble in acid water, in order to be safe next to a layer of naphtha. And your yeild should be heavier than the starting weight, right...? You could end up with around 410 - 420 mg of dmt-acetate from 320 dmt-freebase...? Inferis, when you get there, show us some pics ..>!
 
So in theory could one take DMT freebase mix with acetic acid, evap that, clean it up and IV it? Could DMT acetate be cleaned/recrystallized the same way as DMT freebase?
 
SWIM is trying to make DMT acetate for insufflation. When the water had evaped. A yellow/orange goo was left. This would not crystalise. SWIM then tryed to put it into the refrigirator. That did not help. He then tryed to freeze it with no success. He then attempted to wash with heptane. That did not help either. Last he tried acetone. That did dissolved everything. Could se white/crystals in acetone solution. Evaped and something that looked like cooking oil was left. The smell of acetetic acid is almost gone and the plastic dmt smell is barley there. Evap tray was put into cabinet overnight. Next day crystals is forming out of the oil. SWIM will wait and try to collect laiter. More info to come.
 
SWIM told me DMT acetate crystals was collected at last. There where some oily spots but could just smear, wait and scrape. Product looks like dmt just browish. Smells very little. Looks like the same amount that SWIM started with. SWIM will wait for it to harden some more. Then he would weigh it. Would the smell indicate that DMT acetate is more stable than freebase ?
 
One could always dissolve the acetate "goo" in a saline solution (0.9% NaCl in distilled water), and then place into a nasal vaporizer, like an afrin bottle or saline nasal spray. Not sure if one could easily judge the dosage, but it would work. My friend used to know people who would do this with cocaine in High School and avoid detection. Also, Acetate and Citrate are rather large molecules and won't form nice crystals (same as with mescaline citrate/acetate), Sulfuric Acid might work well, but its a pain to procure. Nitric Acid may work, but I don't know enough about chemistry to know for sure.
 
SWIM told me DMT acetate is solid at room temperature. Its just difficult to crystalise. It may be impure. It may be excess acetetic acid in it. But its was his first attempt to make DMT acetate. It weighed in at 200mg... 120mg less that what it started with. Some might be lost with handling and some residues on different containers. SWIM told me he got some on his tounge... and it burned ALOT. The area with contact went numb. This might sting a bit up the nose.... hehehe only time will tell....
 
[quote:02748177a9="inferis"]SWIM told me DMT acetate is solid at room temperature. Its just difficult to crystalise. It may be impure. It may be excess acetetic acid in it. But its was his first attempt to make DMT acetate. It weighed in at 200mg... 120mg less that what it started with. Some might be lost with handling and some residues on different containers. SWIM told me he got some on his tounge... and it burned ALOT. The area with contact went numb. This might sting a bit up the nose.... hehehe only time will tell....[/quote:02748177a9] any effects?
 
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