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Any research into best acids to use for acid/base extractions?

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psyshroom

Rising Star
Hi guys

I've come across people referring to using different acids in extractions, some strong, some weaker


I remember seeing one comment in the DMT Handbook suggesting vinegar might not perform as well as other acids.

"Previously, Vinegar (Acetic acid) was used, but the yields were sub-
standard compared to those achieved with Phosphoric acid. This may be due to the Acetic
acid forming a weak bond with the DMT which may easily be broken down during some steps
of this process."


Another comment there alludes to it:


When I checked over the acid/base extractions indexed on this wiki, I noted the all essentially used weak organic acids (vinegar/citric acid)

In general I note that the forum is quick to state "you can't do any harm adding more lye", which is definitely true, and the acid brews and solvent extractions should perform well once you repeat the steps..

So I guess my question now is how do we ensure our acid extraction is efficient as possible? I'll add the main thing that comes to mind, but please point out any others I've missed

- perform multiple acid brews, 4 or more
- brews should be 1.5 hours minimum (I guess this could be much longer)
- use a strong acid?
- freeze/thaw the plant material. I get it, I've started doing so.. my only question is would it be better if we added the vinegar first to rehydrate the cells?

I'd also welcome any info people have about what is happening with the DMT acetate bond getting broken. It seems to suggest that even in the ph4 vinegar solution, that some DMT freebase is formed? Though wouldn't it get pulled along when we basify the solution? Or is it that the bond breaking prevents the DMT escaping the plant matter?

Teks + acid reference:

BLAB - The Big Leisurely A/B - DMT-Nexus Wiki (vinegar)

Lextek - DMT-Nexus Wiki (vinegar)

Marsofold's tek - DMT-Nexus Wiki (vinegar)

Q21Q21's Vinegar/Lime A/B Extraction Tek - DMT-Nexus Wiki (vinegar)

Shaggy's Jungle Tek - DMT-Nexus Wiki (citric acid)

PanoraMIX European AB - DMT-Nexus Wiki (vinegar, and citric acid for more yields..)
 
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I'm not a chemist, but from my rudimentary understanding, i'd guess that weaker acids are preferrable, if the strength matters at all. My reasoning is that when you have both an acid and a base in the same solution, you are creating a buffer system, and that will trap *some* of the alkaloids in solution - and i'd assume a stronger acid traps more. I could be wrong at every step here, of course ...

If vinegar does lead to lower yields compared to other acids (which would need either a pretty rigorous experiment where all other variables are identical, or one of the chem flask heads giving a reasonable explanation, for me to believe), my guess would be that it's because it "bonds" too strongly to the DMT, not too weakly, and therefore traps more DMT in the buffer.

Another, perhaps more likely explanation, is that people simply used too much vinegar, then needed too much lye, and thereby increased the amount of DMT trapped in the buffer.

Remember that acid molecule + DMT freebase molecule => DMT ion + ion of the acid, and both should be floating pretty freely in the water. If they do form any bonds, we actually need them to break up when we add the base, because we want the DMT as freebase, which will migrate into the non-polar solvent.

There is at least one A/B tek on the nexus that doesn't add any acid in the A phase (because there is plenty of tannic acid in the bark): Low Lye approach to extacting DMT - analysis of N,N-Dimethyltryptamine in mimosa hostilis root bark - STB - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

ACY was maybe a bit over the top with safety considerations there, but keep reading. I have tried this tek, and i had 1.2% yield in my first pull - better than with any other tek i tried with the same bark, and about 80% of total yield i usually achieved with that bark - using STB or A/B with acetic or citric acid.
 
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I remember it being said that phosphoric acid can produce undesirable reactions with acacia but have not used it myself.. it clearly works well for some who use it - but since Acacia varies so much in its chemical makeup its probably not so cut and dry.

Citric/tartaric/acetic acid are reliable.. ph 4-5 with any of those acids should be perfectly efficient when combined with heat and well processed material (i.e thoroughly dried and ground) .. 1.5 hours x 4 I would say is probably overkill but being thorough is never a bad thing... and if you are using large amounts of material liquid can become trapped in the material so a 4th boil might at the very least help rinse out any liquid from pervious boils that didn't strain out.

If you have a bit of material to play with it would be easy enough to separate into a few differen't extractions and compare the different acids.. pulling separately from each boil to confirm efficiency.. but I've always found vinegar/citric acid straightforward and achieved yields in line with known % of various plants

..the handbook was written by someone working with a specific Acacia (I should add very unethically) from specific regions of Australia and it clearly worked well for them - I'd be loathed to apply it as gospel across the board as it doesn't take into account the diverse chemistry going on in different plant sources .. Acacia can be quite complex .. extraction is often more nuanced than something like mimosa which is very straightforward in achieving a crystaline product. DMT salt (probably tannate) is already fairly soluble in water.. small amounts of acid speed things up and help breakdown material .. but in combination with boiling I think that the difference between acetic/tartaric/HCL/sulphuric/phosphoric probably becomes fairly small.. PH 4 and high heat for 3 x 1 hr cooks should pull most alkaloids.. in fact the first boil will usually pull the majority.

I dunno I haven't seen enough evidence to suggest that using vinegar results in lower yields .. But I'm more than happy to be wrong on this if there is a more efficient way..

would be interested in any comparisons you can share re: phosphoric vs acetic/citric/sulphuric etc

"you can't do any harm adding more lye"
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I think this is an incorrect generalisation as it doesn't take into account the varying chemical reactions that occur in different plant sources.. sometimes the minimum amount of lye to make the alkaloids precipitate can be preferable .. and sometimes not.. it really depends. There is mostly a focus on two sources of DMT at the nexus.. both are usually using rootbark. Lore around bark extraction doesn't apply so well to phyllodes/leaf extracts..
 
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Thanks for your response @acacian.

I'm feeling reassured that it's probably no real concern! The numerous teks all suggesting vinegar should really be a hint though I suppose.

Also, very fair point.
acacian said:
"you can't do any harm adding more lye"
Click to expand...
I think this is an incorrect generalisation as it doesn't take into account the varying chemical reactions that occur in different plant sources.. sometimes the minimum amount of lye to make the alkaloids precipitate can be preferable .. and sometimes not.. it really depends.
Click to expand...
 
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