Anyone have a clever way to transform Freebase Caapi Harmalas to Fumarates or another Salt?

[plumsmooth]

Thanks for your consideration, it is just that if I have Spice Fumarates, then it seems logical that Caapi Harmala Fumarates would be the perfect complement.
There must be a simple way, even one that leaves a little extra Fumaric Acid. Since it is a food supplement I wouldn't mind. For example the most novice basic way I can come up with is Dissolve Freebase Caapi Harmalas in water and Fumaric Acid, then dry. But I am sure there must be a cooler way than that. Like one of the precipitation techs whereby one can achieve something a bit less tainted with Fumaric Acid. Thanks again...

P.S. The problem with acetates and or phosphates is that they seem to be too hydroscopic for reasonable handling. I would like something dry.

P.P.S I just noticed DOS' Harmal Tech and am chucking to myself thinking what timing on my part with the mention of Harmala Fumarates.
Now it is time to read that post!

Sorry one last thing, I realized I should mention that I want to stay food grade/non-toxic.
I realize that means different things to different people.
Being that one is already starting with relatively pure Freebase Caapi Harmalas I would like to think there must be a simple conversion to Fumarates that doesn't involve all the chemicals like mek acetone etc...
I wonder if all that is necessary to transform freebase into fumarates is acidifying water enough with Fumaric Acid and adding the Freebase.
I wonder if PH is all that is needed as far as a determining factor of how much Fumaric Acid to add.
Or better yet, add just enough fumaric acid until the freebase caapi harmalas dissolve.
That should do it right?

I guess it is TOO bad that Freebase Harmalas are not soluble in Limonene otherwise one could simply salt them out with FASW or FASI etc.

 

[endlessness]

What I have been doing for having the dmt+harmala salt combo for oral ingestion, is measure an amount of freebase harmalas (such as, say, 1g), redissolve in warm vinegar, and saturate with salt to precipitate the hcl salts. The resulting precipitation has plenty of salt contamination, but thats perfectly food safe, and you anyways just divide the precipitation in the according number of doses thinking of the freebase weight, so if it was 1g, dividing in 5 doses would be appropriate. Then I just put that in a couple of capsules together with dmt fumarate and thats a very practical pharma ingestion method. I get no nausea this way, and dont feel any of the taste.

BTW, where did you see that harmalas dont dissolve in limonene? If I remember correctly, they did dissolve but the issue was the formation of harmala red in limonene. I might be wrong though. Another thing is, even if harmalas redissolved in limonene and didnt create harmala red, it wont necessarily salt out with FASI (for example mescaline fumarate is soluble in limonene, so FASI wouldnt work with it.. For harmalas, we have to test this to know). And FASW would still have fumaric acid excess in any case, just like your proposed method, so might as well do what you are mentioning if you dont mind.

Another idea would be to, instead of making a random amount of fumaric acid water solution (or FASW) and redissolving the harmalas as you proposed, would be to make a molar calculation to have just the exact amount (or a tiny bit more) of fumaric acid to attach to the harmala molecules, and then evap that, to not have any excess fumaric acid. The problem is, I dont know if harmine and harmaline fumarates are 1:1 molecule of harmala:fumarate, or if its like 2:1 (like dmt fumarate is), or 1:2, or what... So this would have to be known before being able to make the molar calculation, so maybe some of our chem experts will know.

Im sure there are other clever ways we can think of, the problem is im not at home for the next couple of months so I dont have my harmalas to test, but if I can think of anything else, I can suggest here and you test for us if you want

 

[plumsmooth]

Thanks for the response.

Another idea would be to, instead of making a random amount of fumaric acid water solution (or FASW) and redissolving the harmalas as you proposed, would be to make a molar calculation to have just the exact amount (or a tiny bit more) of fumaric acid to attach to the harmala molecules, and then evap that. The problem is, I dont know if harmine and harmaline fumarates are 1:1 molecule of harmala:fumarate, or if its like 2:1 (like dmt fumarate is), or 1:2, or what... So this would have to be known before being able to make the molar calculation, so maybe some of our chem experts will know.

This is the type of educated thinking I was hoping for...

A quick mention: from my testing Manske does not precipitate THH.
Why I do not know.
But after the initial troubling precipitation of Harmine,
approximately 30% was left behind that was finally re-precipitated by basifying.

I assume that was the THH that didn't precipitate.

 

[endlessness]

explain more how you did this. What was the initial product, a caapi extraction, or a ready-made caapi-copy or? How do you know there was thh in there in the first place? and did you properly saturate with salt, or is it possible it wasnt completely saturated and thats why some didnt crash out??

 

[plumsmooth]

This is a post from my "So THH does precipitate with Manske Thread".
This thread can be found on the now, second page of Harmala sub-forum.

My last two posts are as follows:

At least so far from my first experiment, there seems like there might be a little trouble getting all the caapi alkaloids to precipitate in this manner.

Approximately 1 gram of Freebase Caapi Harmalas were dissolved in hot-vinegar-water and then precipitated using the standard 10/100 salt/water ratio respectively.

This was after attempting to use 20/100 salt/water ratio. Figuring that solubility of salt in water is approximately 36/100, SWIM figured this would give a little more assurance toward the goal-- hopefully avoiding possible excess loss. However, this amount of salt, being added first created instant precipitation in the boiling glass teapot, thereby indicating an excess of salt, once again, at 20/100 ratio. Solution was then given double the water and cleared up.

As a matter of fact just tested, was a solution after re-x 1 gram rue alkaloids Manske style: 10/100 Salt/Water
Solution was basified yielding absolutely no color change and additional alkaloids.

Caapi alkaloid solution however, after collection of beautiful Yellow Salts, was re-basified and showed classic color change and released what seem to be, at most, an additional 5-10%.
Unfortunately, not having recorded exact weights, an exact figure will not be available for this experiment.

Nevertheless, the conclusion is that there is some trouble when attempting Manske of Caapi.
Not to mention the large needles, characteristic of Rue Harmala Salts (harmaline?) were not present in the Caapi salt precipitation.
And, guessing due to the salted water and very small crystal formation, precipitates were a bit harder to collect that the standard Manske on Syrian Rue.

I'm going to try one more time; and if loss seems excessive enough to indicate-- especially-- non precipitating THH, then this approach will be discarded in favor of some kind of re-acidification and evaporation to yield the desired Caapi Harmala Salts for tincture making.


Final post:
Update, collected alkaloids weight more than expected, maybe due to settling for a couple of days this time.

To recap the experiment:
Base Caapi alkaloids were re-dissolved in vinegar/water and then Manske'd at 10/100 salt/water ratio.

.94 were collected as lovely yellow salts.

The remaining solution was basified.
Color change indicating plenty remaining alkaloids.

Total base alkaloids collected = .64 X 1.28 =.81

Conclusion: Almost half of the Caapi alkaloids Didn't precipitate applying Manske salt tek.

WIll try one more time...