Are DMT visuals Turing patterns?

[steppa]

Hey Nexus,

I recently stumbled over an article which made me think...

I never heard of turning instabilities/patterns before reading this article, but I bet that many people on here with chem knowledge have come across them or may even know much more about them.


First some quoted stuff from the link provided below:

WHAT ARE TURING INSTABILITIES?
Turing Instabilities - named after mathematician Alan Turing - were found during studies of reaction-diffusion systems.
These systems are used by mathematicians and chemists to see how substances change and behave in certain situations.
These situations include how substances are altered during chemical reactions.
These changes to the substances create patterns, depending on the concentration of a substance, as well what substances are being changed.
In the case of the cave paintings, the substances were inside the human brain.
The chemical reaction was created by the cavemen taking the hallucinogens, thought to be found in plants, during rituals.
In the brain, this chemical reaction leads people to 'see' neural patterns that resemble to cellular structure of the brain itself.
These swirls, dots and lines would then have been painted on cave walls.
Because the drugs were taken, and these images were ultimately seen, during spiritual rituals, the cavemen would have put particular emphasis and significance on them.
This would have caused the patterns to be repeated throughout time and across the world.

Read more: Were cave-painters on DRUGS? New study claims paintings show prehistoric man was 'high' on psychedelic plants

When a human takes a hallucinogen the chemical reaction it causes in their brain makes them see patterns which resemble the cellular structure of the brain. These are called Turing Instabilities.

Read more: Were cave-painters on DRUGS? New study claims paintings show prehistoric man was 'high' on psychedelic plants

Pretty interesting I thought. So I googled turning instability only to find this on vimeo Turing Flowers Two

Looks familar, doesn't it? So...could this article be entirely right?

What's your opinion to this? Do you have any links on this topic worth to share?

Image c and/or d resemble what I often see on my walls while smoking DMT.

 

[Global]

I think these "turning patterns" or entopic hallucinations or whatever you want to call them are quite superficial to the core nature of the DMT experience. There is little to me in my deep DMT experiences that come across as thesee repeating patterns of webs, honeycombs, etc...I want to clarify. On one of my strongest (and first) pharma experiences, after smoking DMT, I found myself in a gigantic spacious, warm and cozy beehive made of gold holographic light. There was very sensual and relaxing buzzing. I recall thinking it was literally the most comfortable I had ever been ever...and yet I wouldn't really tie that experience in much at all to the honeycomb kind of effect you can get at the lower end of the spectrum. It was a fully realized place, and a bit of an exception at that too. Most of the places I go on DMT have little to nothing to do with those turning patterns. Furniture, Pharaohs, sacred temples, nebulae, horses, lions, etc...and I have reasonable suspicion to believe from my own experiences that beholding such things aren't from some misfirings of the visual cortex or seeing your own visual-nervous system's structure or something like that.

I find it as little surprise that cellular looking phenomena can be gleaned from behind closed eyelids (even when sober) because you have the light passing through your eyelids which is first hitting the skin cells of your eyelid, along with the blood cells being carried to those thin membranes that are your eyelids, coupled with the cellular phosphenes in the eye, it makes sense that the brain could start creating cellular afterimages which it can then tweak, particularly in a low-level DMT kind of mindset.

I'm not trying to write off these patterns as completely insignificant because since they can be detected all over the natural world, it does lend itself well to seeing how you fit into the whole scheme of nature and all that...It's just that it goes so much deeper, and that can't be overlooked. There are a number of things that tend to happen at the onset of a DMT experience as well, and to me sometimes I can't help but feel like you're just witnessing the brain priming itself for the real show. It's more transition or low-level material IMO.

 

[steppa]

Thank you, Global.

It's more transition or low-level material IMO.

I guess it's time for me to level up then. :d

 

[Infectedstyle]

I tend to look for fractal patterns.

I do not dismiss geometric explanations of "particular" hallucinations. I've seen cobweb patterns in my early explorations. As my relation with hallucinations evolve my hallucinations have evolved with it. I don't see cobweb patterns anymore, but i have seen blatant images of neural connections. Including the ability to explore how memories and learned abilities are organized inside the brain.

But as for my honest thoughts on this subject of geometric hallucinations, I think the important thing is that the brain could represent the entire structure of the universe. I.E. a mathemetical model of the universe looks very similar to the mathemetical model of the brain.

So with that in mind, it allows for a deeper view on geometry seen on hallucinogens and is no longer linked to brain function alone. I think these things are often overlooked by researchers. I am impressed non-theless. But as for real explanations of what is seen during inner explorations.. I would much rather let the real psychonauts have a go at that question

 

[steppa]

Hey,

just bumping this for some more opnions. I just stumbled across a page about

Interrelationships between natural processes, computational systems and procedural-based art practices

The images on this page made me thinking about this topic again.

Have a look.

What do you think? Those images aren't too far from hyperspace...for me. Imagine them being animated... o0

Please also have a look on those links for more pretty cool examples of turning patterns: Link, Link, Link (Videos)

Also, please have a look at those Images Especially Las Vegas, Texas, Huelva and Florida(!). Am I the only one to see a correlation?

 

[Global]

Am I the only one to see a correlation?

I wouldn't say that it's the correlation that's being called into question so much as it only correlates with a very small part of the spectrum of the DMT experience. It does not correlate with the more sophisticated features of hyperspace. What also may be called into question is the consistency of hyperspace. I've visited idiosyncratic rooms and places on a plethora of occasions. It doesn't just seem to be these chemicals playing out their parts which create geometric abstractions. These rooms are specific such as a child's bedroom, certain hallways, etc...that can often be accompanied by ancient cultural motifs with a kind of specificity and regularity that I find the Turing patterns to be overly simplistic as an explanation. The concept of revisiting the same locations seems to minimize the idea that we're seeing the cellular structure of the brain or seeing some kind of algorithm playing out. There are instances of cellular/biological patterns and there are instances of algorithmic-like action, but your scope is too narrow I think if you believe that DMT visions can be reduced to these Turing patterns. If the patterns have anything to do with the DMT visions, then they are only an incredibly small fraction of an explanation, and require additional information/theories to make it tenable.

 

[steppa]

These rooms are specific such as a child's bedroom, certain hallways, etc...that can often be accompanied by ancient cultural motifs with a kind of specificity and regularity that I find the Turing patterns to be overly simplistic as an explanation.

Wait. The shown patterns are very simplistic. But what if I show you how turning patterns form the Mona Lisa?
Couldn't it be that those clear images you/we see in our minds are a result of our pattern recognition going wild over some complex Turing-McCabe patterns due to the experiences we had in our lives?

The concept of revisiting the same locations seems to minimize the idea that we're seeing the cellular structure of the brain or seeing some kind of algorithm playing out.

Why? Isn't it always the same substance we ingest? Couldn't this lead to similar patterns? Of course keeping set and setting in mind, which (at least I think so) also alter the chemical ratios in our brains. I could imagin that one would be able to reproduce a certain experience over and over again, if all the variables would be the same. Which the surely never will be...but theoreticaly speaking.

If the patterns have anything to do with the DMT visions, then they are only an incredibly small fraction of an explanation, and require additional information/theories to make it tenable.

Jep. That's what I'm after.

Sorry that I can't explain myself better. But this topic is very complex and my english is lacking. It takes me soooo long to write this stuff in an understandable way, without sounding like a retard.

 

[Global]

The concept of revisiting the same locations seems to minimize the idea that we're seeing the cellular structure of the brain or seeing some kind of algorithm playing out.

Why? Isn't it always the same substance we ingest? Couldn't this lead to similar patterns? Of course keeping set and setting in mind, which (at least I think so) also alter the chemical ratios in our brains. I could imagin that one would be able to reproduce a certain experience over and over again, if all the variables would be the same. Which the surely never will be...but theoreticaly speaking.

Not only won't the variables be the same theoretically speaking, but I've revisited the same places in entirely contrasting set/settings. Different parts of the planet, different environments, entirely different states of emotions and mindsets. Different dosages along with different plant oils, and pyrolized byproducts along with synergistic combinations with other substances like LSD or harmalas all impact the experience, but it all still seems to be going on in the same places.

As for the Mona Lisa video, I'm not quite sure what I'm looking at or what the significance is. That the Mona Lisa can apparently dissolve into the Turing patterns seems less significant to me than if it could be generated by them. It's also not clear to me exactly what the process is that is causing this dissolution or how that would impact the significance of what we're viewing. Could the same process be applied to any photo, and if so, then it seems rather meaningless.

 

[○]

smoalk moar

 

[steppa]

Not only won't the variables be the same theoretically speaking, but I've revisited the same places in entirely contrasting set/settings. Different parts of the planet, different environments, entirely different states of emotions and mindsets. Different dosages along with different plant oils, and pyrolized byproducts along with synergistic combinations with other substances like LSD or harmalas all impact the experience, but it all still seems to be going on in the same places.

Ok. Point for you.

As for the Mona Lisa video, I'm not quite sure what I'm looking at or what the significance is. That the Mona Lisa can apparently dissolve into the Turing patterns seems less significant to me than if it could be generated by them.

Watch it backwards. *g*

Could the same process be applied to any photo, and if so, then it seems rather meaningless.

That's interesting. As for me, the opposite is the case. I'd call it extremely meaningful. Cause that would lead me to the conclousion that everything COULD emerge from said patterns. ...interesting.

Thank you for your input.

smoalk moar

 

[Guyomech]

I gotta agree with both Global and Tattmavasi. I would only equate these Turing visuals to the lowest end of the experience, which you can attain on a high dose of marijuana. It's possible that some of the higher order visuals we see are based on the unfolding of Turing patterns, in the same way that a little light-leak through the eyelids or a little sound or music can form a core around which complex visuals are built. But on any respectable dose (let's say 15mg+) I always have much more structured and specific visuals. They always seem to be a graphing if my minds essential workings, rather than just a swirl left by superficial processes. DMT can reach far deeper than that.

BTW I've edited your title. It's Turing, not turning. Named after Alan Turing, father of modern computing.

 

[SpartanII]

I used to see a lot of interference patterns (open and closed eye) on LSD back in the day.

At one point I was convinced that the universe, including me, was made out of holograms.

Maybe I wasn't far off...:twisted:

 

[steppa]

An interesting Papaer I just stumbled upon:

"Turing instabilities in biology, culture, and consciousness? On the enactive
origins of symbolic material culture"

 

[RAM]

Here's another paper that might be of interest:

"Geometric visual hallucinations, Euclidean symmetry and the functional architecture of striate cortex"

I found it in my earlier days of psychedelia when I was convinced that psychedelics could allow me to discover secrets of the universe based on math. There is some really advanced math in the article that describes how the architecture of the brain influences visual geometric hallucinations.

This paper is concerned with a striking visual experience: that of seeing geometric visual hallucinations. Hallucinatory images were classified by Kluver into four groups called form constants comprising (i) gratings, lattices, fretworks, filigrees, honeycombs and chequer-boards, (ii) cobwebs, (iii) tunnels, funnels, alleys, cones and vessels, and (iv) spirals. This paper describes a mathematical investigation of their origin based on the assumption that the patterns of connection between retina and striate cortex (henceforth referred to as V1) - the retinocortical map - and of neuronal circuits in V1, both local and lateral, determine their geometry.