Are there advantages of being guided by a Curandero over doing DMT alone?

[Ajqij]

I want to invite you into a dialogue, not to try and prove anything, demonstrate superiority, or question anyone’s choices about how they engage with DMT. I simply want to explore what we all might be able to learn from one another. Feel free to share your experiences and opinions . . . all I ask is that we respect one another’s contributions and diverse experiences even if we disagree, especially if we disagree.

Rather than “telling” I want to “ask” you the question . . . What might the advantages and disadvantages be of opening to the guidance of a curandero rather than going solo with DMT?

 

[Nydex]

The way I see it, if you are in the hands of a capable, respectful, and properly experienced curandero, there are no disadvantages, only differences as compared to the solo experience.

There's an important nuance to be explored here. If you do it solo, things can go quite badly, sure. You can get hyperslapped, and you can get traumatized. Nobody will doubt that because we've seen it happen numerous times.

However, if you fall in the hands of a brujo, a sharlatan, someone with horrible intentions wearing the guise of a curandero, things can go much, much worse than you woud be off if you'd done it solo, and that applies especially for women. And as it stands, finding "shamans" with bad intentions is not as uncommon as I'd like it to be, especially in countries like Peru where Ayahuasca tourism has become a thing.

 

[northape]

I've never sat with a curandero, but if life allows, I'd like to go your route.
I'd rather sit with some tribe or village healer, far away from tourists, gurus, facilitators, and other know-it-all folk.
This psychedelic renaissance is a total BS, imo. It's mostly commodification of ancient medicines.
Most of the stuff the West touches become polluted and commodified. It's a death cult with an expiration date long due.
Many people here would disagree and take it personally, but just look at this planet and what have been done since WW2.

The West is brainwashed by a culture narrative and their eyes locked on a meaningless stuff. Yeah, a lot of people need healing.
But why is that? Sick culture produces sick people. And even their approach to healing carries this sickness.

What's going to happen to us all? Who knows. I see a big collapse coming in the nearest decades.
Hope some traditions will make it through. Aya that was once hidden and sacred sells openly on the net.
US shamans demand 1000$ per ceremony and Peruvian curanderos serve to the highest bidder.

I'd rather drink Solo, but I Hope that there is some authenticity left in this world.

P.S. Just to shutter your illusions. This was written by a sick person from the west.
Not everything in life is hugs and kisses.
If we dared to look at hard stuff, maybe this situation would never occur.

 

[Ajqij]

The way I see it, if you are in the hands of a capable, respectful, and properly experienced curandero, there are no disadvantages, only differences as compared to the solo experience.

There's an important nuance to be explored here. If you do it solo, things can go quite badly, sure. You can get hyperslapped, and you can get traumatized. Nobody will doubt that because we've seen it happen numerous times.

However, if you fall in the hands of a brujo, a sharlatan, someone with horrible intentions wearing the guise of a curandero, things can go much, much worse than you woud be off if you'd done it solo, and that applies especially for women. And as it stands, finding "shamans" with bad intentions is not as uncommon as I'd like it to be, especially in countries like Peru where Ayahuasca tourism has become a thing.

Good points @Nydex, not only are there ill-intended charlatans in Peru, but they are flourishing throughout South and Central America. No one will find authentic curanderos hanging out in town squares, beach resorts, and hotels, or even ancient ruins frequented by tourists. Gaining access is all about relationship, not about how many pesos one has earmarked for a “sacred ceremony.” Think of the process as an “extraction.” To produce a “pure” outcome there are vital separation and filtration steps involved that cannot be omitted. The same goes for traveling south to seek out a medicinal vision quest.

Relationship is the key and that term needs to be unpacked for those who have it in them to seek out the kind of holy person you and I are referring to. In my experience Nydex, (and anyone reading this please refrain from tossing an “ember” in this thread that implies I’m boasting my credentials) what is needed is to either rely upon someone who is credible and has well-established relationships with Curanderos or invest time in getting to know the local people in and around smaller villages (on the “edge of town” as it were) and gain their trust. It is through establishing trust and demonstrating humility and respect that will deliver the seeker to their destination. (And BTW the internet, “trip advisor,” or social media recommendations are unlikely to be credible sources.) So this disadvantage you so wisely pointed out is extremely important for anyone planning a sacred journey south.

As for the advantages, I wish to offer a small unpacking of what “a capable, respectful, and properly experienced curandero” might mean. “Capable,” means having the Tek nailed which includes preparing the medicine, administering it, (proper dose, set, and setting), and facilitating the ceremony. “Respectful” means far more than maintaining physical and emotional boundaries, it also has to do with the degree to which a Curandero lives respect and reverence in their daily life – which includes honoring their ancestors, the plants they call upon, all life forms here on Earth and other planets, and a sacredness for the cosmos as a whole. “Properly Experienced,” means the degree to which the shaman, him-or-herself has established a long-standing relationship with the plant energies, entities, and emissaries. (By “long-standing” I don’t just mean a few years, I mean a relationship existing both within and outside of (in)finite time.)

I deeply appreciate exchanging knowledge and experience with you in a respectful dialogue. Thank you. One more thing I wish to offer is that “going solo” is fine, as I’ve taken that path for years. (I very seldom ever trip with others as I find it to be a distraction from being “in the pull” of the medicine.) Why I am inclined to encourage psychonauts to dial in with the ways of the elders is not to impose archaic rules of engagement, but to point them in the direction of opening to the full opportunity of plant medicine – a kind of “synthesis" encoded into the interconnected fabric between the micro and the macro that encourages partnering and collaboration between the medicinal miracle of Nature, (plants) and the magnificent mems of Biology, (humans). In Lak’ech

 

[fink]

I've always been solo over about 40 dmt experiences. Been hyperslapped real hard on about 1/3 of those. I'd rather dive straight into the darkness when it's calling. Don't need to soften the hit. The goal is to improve myself.

I don't smoke DMT currently. I already feel a heavy debt to the molecule. My level of understanding is way short of what was shown to me. Have been paying off that debt with self improvement and understanding for a couple of years now. It's nearly time to go for another adventure.

I'd like to sit and talk to villagers of south america if I had the chance. Dont know if I'd really need to drink a brew to benefit from that encounter

 

[Ajqij]

I've never sat with a curandero, but if life allows, I'd like to go your route.
I'd rather sit with some tribe or village healer, far away from tourists, gurus, facilitators, and other know-it-all folk.
This psychedelic renaissance is a total BS, imo. It's mostly commodification of ancient medicines.
Most of the stuff the West touches become polluted and commodified. It's a death cult with an expiration date long due.
Many people here would disagree and take it personally, but just look at this planet and what have been done since WW2.

The West is brainwashed by a culture narrative and their eyes locked on a meaningless stuff. Yeah, a lot of people need healing.
But why is that? Sick culture produces sick people. And even their approach to healing carries this sickness.

What's going to happen to us all? Who knows. I see a big collapse coming in the nearest decades.
Hope some traditions will make it through. Aya that was once hidden and sacred sells openly on the net.
US shamans demand 1000$ per ceremony and Peruvian curanderos serve to the highest bidder.

I'd rather drink Solo, but I Hope that there is some authenticity left in this world.

P.S. Just to shutter your illusions. This was written by a sick person from the west.
Not everything in life is hugs and kisses.
If we dared to look at hard stuff, maybe this situation would never occur.

@northape, couldn't agree with you more about all your points. Thank you for the clarity and good intent of what you offered to this thread. There is indeed "some authenticity left in this world," but it's evaporating faster than naphtha. I want to show you evidence of this still existing open-heartedness. (I'm not sharing this to boast about my "diplomas" eithier)

This pic was taken during a Mayan celebration I was invited to attend a few years back. (Look at the faces of these beautiful people who, still today, embody and live the energies of love, respect and reverence in their daily lives.)



As for the "hard stuff," you mentioned . . . we in modern society have lost our way and there are three camps in my estimation . . .
Camp 1 - Those who are asleep and will never wake up.
Camp 2 - Those who are waking up and seeking ways to reconnect with what they've lost (like placing faith in plant medicine).
Camp 3 - Those who are awake and serving as fellow travelers and guides to invite camps 1 and 2 to join camp 3.

What makes this "hard?" When those in Camp 2 are unwilling to open their hearts to those in camp 3.
And for those who are inclined to poke holes . . . I'm not suggesting hierachical camps, just states of evolution, each with its own assets and liabilities. Thank you nothape for your contribution. Whether you consider yourself "sick" or "healed" I honor you and value who you are. In Lak'ech

 

[Ajqij]

I've always been solo over about 40 dmt experiences. Been hyperslapped real hard on about 1/3 of those. I'd rather dive straight into the darkness when it's calling. Don't need to soften the hit. The goal is to improve myself.

I don't smoke DMT currently. I already feel a heavy debt to the molecule. My level of understanding is way short of what was shown to me. Have been paying off that debt with self improvement and understanding for a couple of years now. It's nearly time to go for another adventure.

I'd like to sit and talk to villagers of south america if I had the chance. Dont know if I'd really need to drink a brew to benefit from that encounter

Fink, it would be my honor to invite you to participate in an expedition I'll be facilitating later this year. There will be an opportunity to sit with these very villagers and their elders, explore the ancient ruins, as well as participate in ceremony. (To clarify, I am NOT promoting a business here, the travelers I invite to join me are not "clients" they are "friends.")

 

[northape]

And for those who are inclined to poke holes . . . I'm not suggesting hierachical camps, just states of evolution, each with its own assets and liabilities. Thank you nothape for your contribution. Whether you consider yourself "sick" or "healed" I honor you and value who you are. In Lak'ech

Thank you for your compassionate approach
I wrote “sick” in order for people to get that I don't separate myself from the masses.
We are all in it together, for better or worse. You can't escape a closed ecosystem.
Musk and company just deceive themselves. Why Terraform Mars when you have Terra right here, waiting for our attention and love?

I get where you're coming from, and you shared a beautiful picture here.
Still, one needs to experience it for oneself and only a few can find time and means for it.
Myself, I'm no longer looking for a short encounter, but a lifelong commitment.
As @fink said, it's not really about medicine anymore...
Peace and all the best!

 

[Tripolation]

I am a DIY guy all day long. I fix my own car, home and everything else, including myself. I save tons of money and take away a lot of pride from this kind of independence. Even though I have had not had direct contact with shamans, curanderos and the like, I have learned from observation. I have read tons and watched many videos. I have incorporated many of my observations directly into my own psychedelics practice. I have made some mistakes, faltered and clumsily figured out what works for me and what does not. Some of me enjoys learning the hard way or at least that is what I am used to. Trial and error and find a way to make it work. I am the patient, the healer and the medicine.

I have a lot of respect for healers of any kind in this world. I think that these kind of healers and teachers present themselves when and if they need to enter into your life. As the saying goes, 'When the student is ready, the master appears.'. Which is something you have to look for. My daughter has taught me more than any human being I have ever met and she started those lessons on me from the moment she came into this world. Teachers come in all forms, a baby or child, yourself, family or friends or a shaman.

At some point in my life I would like to seek out the wisdom of a shaman or curandero, as for now I am doing just fine solo. I primarily always tripped alone and honestly prefer it that way. I would not enjoy a group setting as I have some issues with social situations at times, I am working on that.

I think many psychonauts I have met are shamans in their own right. This is not to discount a shaman's abilities. It's apples and oranges there. I just think that it's worth pointing out that some western psychonauts bring a great amount of healing wisdom, guidance and friendship that is just as powerful of medicine. I once heard that enable to be called a shaman, one would need to heal someone first. The title is earned and not just given on a weekend website course or self-appointed. If you can heal someone and offer guidance and do it well, you deserve the title. The title bestowed onto the healer from the healed.

Perhaps someday I will venture to see a shaman or curandero. If that is in my cards in this life, cool. If not, solo is just fine with me.

 

[Voidmatrix]

Fink, it would be my honor to invite you to participate in an expedition I'll be facilitating later this year. There will be an opportunity to sit with these very villagers and their elders, explore the ancient ruins, as well as participate in ceremony. (To clarify, I am NOT promoting a business here, the travelers I invite to join me are not "clients" they are "friends.")

No using the Nexus as a personal meet-up point

Due to potential legal risks, we do not want people giving their emails or personal contacts (or displaying full face pictures) openly. We don't want people telling other members they don't already know to meet up privately, this can be a problem for both the people meeting as well as bringing attention for the whole community. The only exception we make is that we allow establishing general meeting points for festivals and conferences because you don't have to say who you are in the Nexus when going there, and you can go to the meeting point if you want while remaining anonymous. If you do meet up, do not bring drugs and be sure to maintain your personal safety.

If you're being paid and are making money then it's probably a "business" promotion. If not then it's all good.

One love

 

[Ajqij]

Well stated @Tripolation, and I honor the wisdom you shared. It must be extraordinary to bring a child into the world who is part of you yet more expansive than you. I myself have no children and never will, so I can only be humbled second-hand by the way you present the priviledge. (I'm sure there are many other teachings that go both ways between the two of you . . . a kind of "synergy" if you like that I mentioned to @Nydex.) Anyway, thanks much for your take on the topic of this thread and for your humility and oppenness about your ways and life. Blessings to you and your shamanic daugther!

 

[Ajqij]

If you're being paid and are making money then it's probably a "business" promotion. If not then it's all good.

One love

With all due respect V, I made it clear I'm not soliciting, so no worries. And if you would point out how the pic I shared could possibly reveal my identity I would appreciate it. I read the Attitude guidelines and am humbly following them. Perhaps make a suggestion to the staff to further clarify the criteria for posting photos if you are concerned? Once done, I will be happily comply.

And do you have anything to share about this threads topic that will forward the value we are receiving from the learning and open-hearted sharing occurring?

 

[Voidmatrix]

With all due respect V, I made it clear I'm not soliciting, so no worries.

That's why I framed what I said as a conditional. I said something in the first place because I found your statement ambiguous. If they are not clients and are simply friends, then the quotes seem like they may be unnecessary, misleading, or trying to swap one term out for another for sake of the rules. As a mod, I'm covering my bases.

And if you would point out how the pic I shared could possibly reveal my identity I would appreciate it. I read the Attitude guidelines and am humbly following them. Perhaps make a suggestion to the staff to further clarify the criteria of posting photos if you are concerned?

This time it's not about you doxxing yourself (well sort of, but bear in mind, your face is crossed out because it provides something explicit to your identity and it was requested that you remedy that), however, if you reread what I shared from the Attitude Page, "no using the Nexus as a personal meet up point." You invited Fink to something IRL. I notified you. Perhaps you're a not as familiar and in compliance with the criteria as you'd like to think. Not a big deal. I slip up too sometimes.

And do you have anything to share about this threads topic that will forward the value we are receiving from the learning and open-hearted sharing occurring?

I don't know if anyone will learn anything or receive anything of value, but I do have something to add/share.

With regard to having a guide (I hope it's okay if I'm broadening the scope slightly), there are so many benefits, many of which will probably go unstated. It's nice to have a secondary nervous system in the room to help off-set what might otherwise may too intense for one to handle on their own and who can also be there and hold space to allow one to really push boundaries with more extreme doses, ensuring safety and hopefully sanity This is also an instance, with an experienced and well-balanced guide, where the power of suggestion can be a really good thing, in that they can use such "power" to help a journeyer chill the f out and open up and surrender to what may come; to turn toward what may be hard and or difficult. Regardless of the experience level of the journeyer, it can be powerful to also have an experienced guide, that has a relationship with the medicine, as a sounding board for navigating and describing experiences, offering potential insights, and providing assistance in interpretation. A lot of this can lend itself to the experiences being more eidetic which in turn aids in deeper and longer lasting integration.

However, in my personal practice, I often guide myself (adopted from some indigenous practices where "shamans" often learn to guide themselves, or practices that mandate solo journey time), as far as I happen to be able to go (okay, that's not always true, there's times, in the midst of an experience, where I think, I shoulda done moar"). Considering the private nature of these experiences, many of my solo journeys are my most meaningful. It builds a lot of inner resilience. A practice in building trust in oneself. And sometimes that doesn't always go well, but that's just part of the territory. There's something satisfying about being thrown around, by any entheogen, for any amount of time, and coming out the other end all on one's own. This is where I also feel we get some of our most raw psychedelic experiences because there's no one else around to actively color how and/or what me may think in a given moment, for better or for worse.

One love

 

[Ajqij]

That's why I framed what I said as a conditional. I said something in the first place because I found your statement ambiguous. If they are not clients and are simply friends, then the quotes seem like they may be unnecessary, misleading, or trying to swap one term out for another for sake of the rules. As a mod, I'm covering my bases.


This time it's not about you doxxing yourself (well sort of, but bear in mind, your face is crossed out because it provides something explicit to your identity and it was requested that you remedy that), however, if you reread what I shared from the Attitude Page, "no using the Nexus as a personal meet up point." You invited Fink to something IRL. I notified you. Perhaps you're a not as familiar and in compliance with the criteria as you'd like to think. Not a big deal. I slip up too sometimes.


I don't know if anyone will learn anything or receive anything of value, but I do have something to add/share.

With regard to having a guide (I hope it's okay if I'm broadening the scope slightly), there are so many benefits, many of which will probably go unstated. It's nice to have a secondary nervous system in the room to help off-set what might otherwise may too intense for one to handle on their own and who can also be there and hold space to allow one to really push boundaries with more extreme doses, ensuring safety and hopefully sanity This is also an instance, with an experienced and well-balanced guide, where the power of suggestion can be a really good thing, in that they can use such "power" to help a journeyer chill the f out and open up and surrender to what may come; to turn toward what may be hard and or difficult. Regardless of the experience level of the journeyer, it can be powerful to also have an experienced guide, that has a relationship with the medicine, as a sounding board for navigating and describing experiences, offering potential insights, and providing assistance in interpretation. A lot of this can lend itself to the experiences being more eidetic which in turn aids in deeper and longer lasting integration.

However, in my personal practice, I often guide myself (adopted from some indigenous practices where "shamans" often learn to guide themselves, or practices that mandate solo journey time), as far as I happen to be able to go (okay, that's not always true, there's times, in the midst of an experience, where I think, I shoulda done moar"). Considering the private nature of these experiences, many of my solo journeys are my most meaningful. It builds a lot of inner resilience. A practice in building trust in oneself. And sometimes that doesn't always go well, but that's just part of the territory. There's something satisfying about being thrown around, by any entheogen, for any amount of time, and coming out the other end all on one's own. This is where I also feel we get some of our most raw psychedelic experiences because there's no one else around to actively color how and/or what me may think in a given moment, for better or for worse.

One love

@Voidmatrix, I see . . . yes, I slipped up as you say. Wasn't intending to meet up with anyone, but merely encouraging members who have the where-with-all to travel south to put it in the psycho-hopper of consideration. (I realize it's not possible for many and truly hope those who hear or feel the "calling" can find their way south whether to engage in ceremony or just commune with the beautiful people living near sacred sites. Spirit has a way of providing paths that none of us would ever think possible.)

And thank you for adding the distinction of experienced "guides" or "secondary nervous systems" as you call them. I've got life-long friends who are well-balanced individuals with a great deal of hallucinagenic ezperience who I've sat with during first encounters with some of the more potent alkaloids out there, or during the gigantic "waves" arising from hero doses. I'm very glad I had a nervous system I could count on in those cases because my nervous system was totally unavailable.

I get where you are coming from V, and respect your POV. Thanks much for your thoughtful sharing in this thread. Blessings.

 

[The Traveler]

Fink, it would be my honor to invite you to participate in an expedition I'll be facilitating later this year.

Even though this invite might be meant as a very friendly and helpful gesture, we discourage meet-ups due to potential legal reasons.

Just wanted to make this clear for all, and hope you see the idea behind our attitude.


Kind regards,

The Traveler

 

[Ajqij]

Even though this invite might be meant as a very friendly and helpful gesture, we discourage meet-ups due to potential legal reasons.

Just wanted to make this clear for all, and hope you see the idea behind our attitude.


Kind regards,

The Traveler

Totally get it . . . and again, it was a slip up that was not intentional. In the future, I will contnue to encourage members to travel south but won't connect myself to their journeys.

 

[Jamie01]

The reality I see around me, is that most people who need/could really benefit from these experiences don’t have a lot of spare time or income. Usually travel is out of the question. I certainly could not afford to fly places to drink ayahusca etc.

If I had that kind of money would I head to Iquitos? Yes.

Most people running ceremonies around here are still charging a lot.. not to mention no one wants to help much or give out info if you don’t already know. The community feels more like it’s set up for local burners and ravers to meet up and have ceremonies together, which is cool but I’m not really all that connected to that community.

The only groups I have encountered in my area that don’t give off this vibe to me, are associated with the NAC…and they’re peyote supply is unsustainable if scaled up to accommodate people like me…while my cacti garden can totally sustain myself. So would I love a currandero to drink my own cacti with?
Yeah.

I guess I’m saying it’s cost for one, and then how much can you scale that up to make it work without resorting to people with questionable training.

 

[fink]

I understand the genuine intentions of the offer and truly appreciate it. From where me and my young family are on the rock ball it's quite a journey.

Nexus rules are very important to keep this forum out of the wrong people's sphere of interest.

All the same, thank you sincerely for the gesture and the trust shown.

 

[quantumtantra]

South America is very broad.

The ayahuasca scene in Brazil is very different from the rest of the continent, IMO, due to the cultural diversity. Nowadays, in the big cities, you can find a variety of different types of ceremonies every weekend, many of them are free or cost like $5 to $50 dollars to participate: shamanic, santo daime, udv, umbandaime, sacred feminine, contacting aliens, chanting mantras, etc, etc, etc.

Regarding the curandeiros of the amazon forest, the different ethnic groups that have consumed ayahuasca for thousands of years have traveled a lot, performing ceremonies in the big cities, as a way of bringing money back to their villages. These ethnic groups have a long history of traditional medicine and generally respect their reputations. A healer who loses his reputation in the scene tends to stop being invited to the ceremony houses, which often share the travel costs among themselves. A ceremony with a very respected pajé (curandeiro) will cost around $100 dollars. So guys don't look only to spanish south america.

 

[Ajqij]

South America is very broad.

The ayahuasca scene in Brazil is very different from the rest of the continent, IMO, due to the cultural diversity. Nowadays, in the big cities, you can find a variety of different types of ceremonies every weekend, many of them are free or cost like $5 to $50 dollars to participate: shamanic, santo daime, udv, umbandaime, sacred feminine, contacting aliens, chanting mantras, etc, etc, etc.

Regarding the curandeiros of the amazon forest, the different ethnic groups that have consumed ayahuasca for thousands of years have traveled a lot, performing ceremonies in the big cities, as a way of bringing money back to their villages. These ethnic groups have a long history of traditional medicine and generally respect their reputations. A healer who loses his reputation in the scene tends to stop being invited to the ceremony houses, which often share the travel costs among themselves. A ceremony with a very respected pajé (curandeiro) will cost around $100 dollars. So guys don't look only to spanish south america.

Really good points q, thanks for this, and I can add that what you say about the differnet cutlures is right on, as well as curanderos who exercise peronal interests lose the priviledge of representing the authentic keepers of medicine plants within their communities.