Are there advantages of being guided by a Curandero over doing DMT alone?

[DM3]

I prefer to trip alone, and I really mean alone. First of all, tripping can be pretty intimidating. Curanderos or shamans just aren’t my vibe at all. They come from a completely different culture and set of customs, and while I can learn from them and I respect their experiences, I wouldn’t want to trip together. That’s a big no for me. I don’t need anyone guiding me or trying to indoctrinate me into another culture. In the end, you are your own guide in life.

 

[Ajqij]

I prefer to trip alone, and I really mean alone. First of all, tripping can be pretty intimidating. Curanderos or shamans just aren’t my vibe at all. They come from a completely different culture and set of customs, and while I can learn from them and I respect their experiences, I wouldn’t want to trip together. That’s a big no for me. I don’t need anyone guiding me or trying to indoctrinate me into another culture. In the end, you are your own guide in life.

Thank you for sharing your preference to trip alone @DM3, I totally respect that path. I do feel it fair to ask how you know a curandero would try to indoctrinate you since you have never tripped with one? I suggest to you that your conclusion may or may not be true. And for whatever it's worth, I would like to share a different path with you that isn't intended to guide you anywhere, but to simply offer another perspective from a fellow psychonaut.

Those who are unwilling to be guided are likely to end up only at a destination of their own making.

Why does that notion warrant any consideration? Because your arrival here in this world was a joint decision, a guidance if you will beyond the purview of your independent control. Since your "wildlife" avatar suggests "why not," perhaps the next time you trip, (if you have established communications with "guides,") you might want to run the notion by them and see what you get . . . unless that is, "why not" is a statement rather than a question. In that case, simply disregard my suggestion as I don't want to become roadkill. Blessings and thanks for expressing your views, I appreciate the degree of conviction you demonstrate.

 

[DM3]

I do feel it fair to ask how you know a curandero would try to indoctrinate you

Indoctrination (from Latin - "within" and doctrina - "teaching, theory") is the transmission of fundamental tenets of a doctrine or religious teaching.
Easily, a person gets indoctrinated by functioning within their guidance.

I suggest to you that your conclusion may or may not be true. And for whatever it's worth, I would like to share a different path with you that isn't intended to guide you anywhere, but to simply offer another perspective from a fellow psychonaut.

Alright, I'm all ears.

Those who are unwilling to be guided are likely to end up only at a destination of their own making.

I mean, I can be guided and helped while sober and still trip alone.

Because your arrival here in this world was a joint decision, a guidance if you will beyond the purview of your independent control.

What guidance are they gonna offer? I'd like to know all the details step by step, with more specific information. Thanks.

 

[Ajqij]

Indoctrination (from Latin - "within" and doctrina - "teaching, theory") is the transmission of fundamental tenets of a doctrine or religious teaching.
Easily, a person gets indoctrinated by functioning within their guidance.


Alright, I'm all ears.


I mean, I can be guided and helped while sober and still trip alone.


What guidance are they gonna offer? I'd like to know all the details step by step, with more specific information. Thanks.

@DM3, I can share with you what I've personally experienced and what others I've shared curandero ceremonies with reported. A "step-by-step" recount isn't possible, however, as much of what occurs, as you well know is a "flow" rather than an operations manual. I tried to nail down specific steps in my "Toltec-Tek," but it was really hard to do because of the abstract nature of the journey. So keeping in perspective that you are open to guidance while sober and still trip alone, I'll nudge my sharing in the direction of sober distinctions whist keeping in mind and heart to convey some of the extraordinary joint heart-opening traveling into plant medicine. (BTW my preferred way to trip is also alone.)

Ok, so to even get in the "door" with a revered curandero or elder, one needs to approach the engagement with utmost respect and humility, not for the healer only but for the entire sensorium and histrionic legacy of sacred plants and their intent here on Earth. Holding the "I drink alone" energy will get one sent away faster than they can blurt out "medicina por favor." If one does gain the trust of a Curandero the following is bound to happen, but not always . . . (I will recount the “steps” from my vantage point so you can kind of experience it through my eyes and heart)

1. Once an arrangement has been made to engage in a plant ceremony, (which can be individual or with a small group of others) the next part of the “guidance” is clearing my inner space (mind and heart) and identifying unresolved issues as "potential material for guidance." (While there’s no expectation that I will encounter or need to do any emotional work, there is always emotional work to do in ceremony.)

2. “Sitting with a Curandero” before imbibing plant medicine is perhaps more intense than a full-on DMT rush. Knee to knee in crossed leg position an “eyes to eyes” engagement ensues. It’s not a “stare-down” it’s a “soul-scan.” By this, all (and I mean all) the deeds ever done or encountered in my life become immediately transparent to both the Curandero and to me. Imagine a movie film strip of your entire life flying by before your eyes that takes no more than about a minute from start to finish. It will be the longest minute of your life.



3. While highly vulnerable, being “seen” so deeply relieves the anxiety that most well-adjusted human beings have about exposing things that they themselves have judged as negative ever since having committed them, (like as you read that line, such instances may instantly arise within you). So the next step is the physically purify my body with a “smudge blessing.” (While I have never felt any change in my level of purity, perhaps I smelled better during the ceremony.)

4. Next comes the brew, a ritual that has meaning for the Curanmdero, and my sense is that as they pour or load the medicine, they’re “sizing me up” physically, psychologically, emotionally, and spiritually for administering a proper dose. Singing then begins and some occasional ritual fanning of my head, face, and chest happens.

5. When the medicine comes on and is in full force the “guidance” begins. All the guidance is non-verbal but extremely powerful. A touch of the hand here, a song there, a gentle blowing of smoke here or there, all highly attuned “navigational adjustments” to optimize breaking through. Depending on many factors this experience magnifies the opportunity to make contact with “ancestors,” “entities,” and “spirit guides” that the Curandero has long-standing associations with, (and even some they don’t).

6. In a closed-eye state I dive deep and alone in a barrage of geometric greeting symbols, but somehow at the same time feeling embraced by an” infinite “maternal loving energy. (This is hard to explain unless one has experienced it directly). It’s not at all an “indoctrination” but rather a profoundly sacred “revelation.”) Singing ensues and I find myself joining in and somehow knowing what the words mean . . . and the melody combined with the words produces a kind of “manifesting interface” I can use to intentionally call forward energies and alleys who can offer my guidance, encouragement, fascination, companionship, belonging, and absolute unconditional fulfillment.

7. Throughout the entire journey from the moment it comes on to when I regain my familiar grasp on “reality” the eyes of the Curandero I peered into before imbibing the plant medicine were with me. Eyes that see from the vastness of the cosmos and offer me a short mortal glimpse of my (in)finite nature.

The rest is quite unremarkable . . . other than a high degree of retention regarding the key guidance and learnings that took place while tripping, which I always humbly tuck into my heart as I express gratitude to my Curandero and make my way to the next village.
In Lak'ech my friend

 

[The Sofa Traveler]

As @Jamie01 said in his excellent post, going South America isn't an option for the vast majority of people, due to cost, time disposal and distance but also because a lot of people don't feel the call for it. For Europeans like me it's something very distant. I have an immense respect for South America shamans work but I wouldn't feel comfortable tripping on another continent with people, especially people I don't know in a framework and culture I don't necessarily share. When I do psychedelics for inner work, especially DMT, I want (and need) to be alone, sine qua non condition for me to reach the depth seeked. I refined my psychedelics practice over 30 years and built my own framework, accordingly to my own culture and background. Actually, I don't brew Ayahuasca, where I live acces to the 'original' Ayahuasca plants is limited and very expensive anyway. I use various psychedelics with various ROAs, including mushrooms, DMT, LSD, according to the needs and goals. Harmalas (from Peganum harmala), though, became the master of ceremony of most of my psychedelics travels (except with LSD), alone or in combination. I follow their voice and insights. My home sweet home is where I meet with myself and where psychedelics heal me. My place to be.
Thanks for the thread, cheers

 

[Ajqij]

As @Jamie01 said in his excellent post, going South America isn't an option for the vast majority of people, due to cost, time disposal and distance but also because a lot of people don't feel the call for it. For Europeans like me it's something very distant. I have an immense respect for South America shamans work but I wouldn't feel comfortable tripping on another continent with people, especially people I don't know in a framework and culture I don't necessarily share. When I do psychedelics for inner work, especially DMT, I want (and need) to be alone, sine qua non condition for me to reach the depth seeked. I refined my psychedelics practice over 30 years and built my own framework, accordingly to my own culture and background. Actually, I don't brew Ayahuasca, where I live acces to the 'original' Ayahuasca plants is limited and very expensive anyway. I use various psychedelics with various ROAs, including mushrooms, DMT, LSD, according to the needs and goals. Harmalas (from Peganum harmala), though, became the master of ceremony of most of my psychedelics travels (except with LSD), alone or in combination. I follow their voice and insights. My home sweet home is where I meet with myself and where psychedelics heal me. My place to be.
Thanks for the thread, cheers

Totally endorse however you choose to partake and don't have an agenda about people needing to travel south. I'm more here to share the sacred ways of the Curanderos and what I've learned in my journeys as well as learn about some of the Tek being pioneered. I figured hey, "The DMT Nexus" a great place I can come and express the extraordinary experiences the healers and their ancestors provided me, and the love I experienced from and with the people of those lands. I also wanted to offer the Toltec-Tek I was able to pull together during my travels, thinking it would be embraced by my fellow psychonauts as a new and novel way to trip. I do believe that is happening here to some degree as well as me learning the general vibe of this forum. Thanks for sharing your prefered way to engage with plant medicines, Sofa. Cheers.

 

[dithyramb]

Everything turns into an egoic image and a consumer commodity in the hands of "Western"/colonial culture. This includes the plants, the sacraments, the religions, spiritualities, and indigenous cultures.

Everybody finds their way according to their conscious and subconscious intentions, and their circumstances. It is possible to be much more authentic or indigenous or spiritual and also to find more healing with work done alone or in one's homeland than the average advertised ceremony. Not that it is on average like that, but it is just possible. If one's intention is shamanic training though, then more likely than not connecting to a living lineage would be necessary.

Other than that, all the wisdom and "shamanic" teachings we need are in us and all around us in the human and natural world, and not in the monopoly of advertised "shamans."

 

[Ajqij]

Everything turns into an egoic image and a consumer commodity in the hands of "Western"/colonial culture. This includes the plants, the sacraments, the religions, spiritualities, and indigenous cultures.

Everybody finds their way according to their conscious and subconscious intentions, and their circumstances. It is possible to be much more authentic or indigenous or spiritual and also to find more healing with work done alone or in one's homeland than the average advertised ceremony. Not that it is on average like that, but it is just possible. If one's intention is shamanic training though, then more likely than not connecting to a living lineage would be necessary.

Other than that, all the wisdom and "shamanic" teachings we need are in us and all around us in the human and natural world, and not in the monopoly of advertised "shamans."

I could not agree more with you @dithyramb about everyone finding their own way . . . to a point. With all due respect, I'm not referring to a monopoly of advertised shamans. What I'm attempting to contribute in my threads are authentic relations with elders and healers I've been honored to encounter during my travels. My intent is not to convince anyone of anything, but to simply offer a glimpse into a facet of reality that perhaps many cannot afford to seek out for themselves or haven't previously considered within the solo mindset they've perfected over the years.

I'm curious why a sampling of "senior members" on this site are quick to project their conclusions in bold (and sometimes dismissive statements) that are constructed within the framework of their own minds. I have no issue with people sharing alternative points of view, preferences, or opinions, as diversity can produce greater understanding . . . I guess what feels odd to me is that the prefered way of interacting here seems to be to push back without any measure of curiosity at all about what they so readily push back about. (For example, I never once spoke of "monopolies" or "advertised ceremonies.")

I would be more than happy to share with you the nature of my encounters and the authentrcity of those I've had the priviledge of being with both inside and outside of sacred ceremonies. But in order to do so, humble questions along with resolute statements would be nessessary. Could we start again from an equal measure of both?

 

[dithyramb]

Hey @Ajkij. I am not here to represent the label of "senior" and just wanted to share what first came to me with this thread. I admit I did not read all the posts, and also that I am in no condition to engage in a talk. Sorry if I came across as contrarian to you. I just hope to have contributed to a dialectic, and I hope that no one has an agenda to promote something over the other. If I found a shaman elder that I deeply trust and revere, I would tell my close friends and family about it to see if they are interested, and it wouldn't be over internet forums. If I get the time I will read about your experiences. I am deeply interested in shamanic traditions. I will not write anymore. Take care.

 

[Voidmatrix]

I'm curious why a sampling of "senior members" on this site are quick to project their conclusions in bold (and sometimes dismissive statements) that are constructed within the framework of their own minds. I have no issue with people sharing alternative points of view, preferences, or opinions, as diversity can produce greater understanding . . . I guess what feels odd to me is that the prefered way of interacting here seems to be to push back without any measure of curiosity at all about what they so readily push back about. (For example, I never once spoke of "monopolies" or "advertised ceremonies.")

You're quite passive aggressive. If you don't like the way things operate here you're free to go somewhere else, you are aware of that right?

@dithyramb added something to the conversation to diversify it and you needlessly shut them down because of ideas they brought in that were still pertinent to the conversation. It was their opinion, their dialogue, that you keep saying you want more of. It'll help if you can be less controlling and manipulative in your interactions.

One love

 

[northape]

I'm curious why a sampling of "senior members" on this site are quick to project their conclusions in bold (and sometimes dismissive statements) that are constructed within the framework of their own minds.

Most people who did this work for a while would be skeptical of any romantic pictures anyone paints.
Projection? I don't know about that. We all project to a certain degree, but it feels like something else is at play.
I support your Hearty approach, but you try to push a certain narrative yourself.
We respect traditions, but no need to push it on people. Why say we lack curiosity and complain?
Make us curious!

It's easy to see faults in others, but very hard to look at yourself. Peace.

Edit: It feels to me that you got a tremendous value from your medicine work, but missed on the social side of life.
There is a subtle need for validation and being the bringer of good news to the tribe.
All good, but you need to come down to tribe's level, to the dirt and piss.
I am maybe wrong here, but it's always good to check your intentions before sharing.

 

[Ajqij]

You're quite passive aggressive. If you don't like the way things operate here you're free to go somewhere else, you are aware of that right?

@dithyramb added something to the conversation to diversify it and you needlessly shut them down because of ideas they brought in that were still pertinent to the conversation. It was their opinion, their dialogue, that you keep saying you want more of. It'll help if you can be less controlling and manipulative in your interactions.

One love

What we accuse others of says more about us than it does about them. Take a look in the mirror. I'm staying.

 

[Voidmatrix]

What we accuse others of says more about us than it does about them. Take a look in the mirror. I'm staying.

Nice try, but you're not going to gaslight me. I'm going off of what you've claimed to want from this place and how your behaviors are contrary to that.

Also, let's analyze that logic: someone kills someone else and I accuse them of murder. Please enlighten me as to how that says more about me than the murderer.

One love

 

[Ajqij]

Most people who did this work for a while would be skeptical of any romantic pictures anyone paints.
Projection? I don't know about that. We all project to a certain degree, but it feels like something else is at play.
I support your Hearty approach, but you try to push a certain narrative yourself.
We respect traditions, but no need to push it on people. Why say we lack curiosity and complain?
Make us curious!

It's easy to see faults in others, but very hard to look at yourself. Peace.

Indeed I will work on trying to make you more curious. I don't see where I have "pushed" anything. I do speak up and don't back down but that isn't pushing an agenda it's being true to one's self. And as for my opinion about certain members on this site . . . it stands and as far as I can tell, I'm free to express my opinions here just like ya'll are doing. I'm happy to agree to disagree, in fact I've already stopped engaging with members I feel are closed minded and closed-hearted to what I have to share. No problem, I'll continue without their senior endoresments, as there ARE members here who value what I'm bringing.

 

[Ajqij]

Nice try, but you're not going to gaslight me. I'm going off of what you've claimed to want from this place and how your behaviors are contrary to that.

Also, let's analyze that logic: someone kills someone else and I accuse them of murder. Please enlighten me as to how that says more about me than the murderer.

One love

@Voidmatrix . . . listen man, I've already told you multiple times that I'm not interested in "analyzing" or engaging in a mental diatriribe with you. Please refrain from "inviting" me into your mind as I find it uninteresting withouit an equal measure of heart to balance it out.

 

[northape]

Indeed I will work on trying to make you more curious. I don't see where I have "pushed" anything. I do speak up and don't back down but that isn't pushing an agenda it's being true to one's self. And as for my opinion about certain members on this site . . . it stands and as far as I can tell, I'm free to express my opinions here just like ya'll are doing. I'm happy to agree to disagree, in fact I've already stopped engaging with members I feel are closed minded and closed-hearted to what I have to share. No problem, I'll continue without their senior endoresments, as there ARE members here who value what I'm bringing.

That is the problem, man. I see that you are trying to bring good news to us.
Still, there are lots of stuff waiting to be integrated in your own case.
I'd suggest cooling a bit
Enjoy some Nature, eat well, exercise and pray.
Remember your elders and send gratitude to all.
It would do much more good for all of us than arguing here.

 

[Voidmatrix]

t stands and as far as I can tell, I'm free to express my opinions here just like ya'll are doing. I'm happy to agree to disagree, in fact I've already stopped engaging with members I feel are closed minded and closed-hearted to what I have to share. No problem, I'll continue without their senior endoresments, as there ARE members here who value what I'm bringing.

What a shock, more passive aggressive whining. You could've just responded to @northape and leave it at that. But no, gotta throw the traditional whining about "senior members," can't forget to do that.

Yeah, you can express your opinions and people can say what they think about. Opinions of opinions: it's a two way road. However I'm not addressing you on your opinions but instead your behaviors. I could care less what you think, but I'll be dammed if I let you taint this place with your manipulative and pretentiousness behavior.

So, ignore me and @Varallo all you like, but know, I'm watching you 👁

One love

 

[Koduckushi]

I think a lot of people see the way the discourse is going and are extremely discouraged from interaction. With that in mind, it makes the pushback seem much louder than it really is. Some of the topics brought up here on the Nex tend to quickly spiral into discussion about things outside the scope of the threads original intention.

Of course, the topic ballooning into something bigger isn't a bad thing in itself. I'm only suggesting that many want coherence in the conversations, not drama. Virtually no person walks themselves into an echo chamber, I think most are pushed into them by their interactions with others.

Love to all.

 

[Ajqij]

Hey @Ajkij. I am not here to represent the label of "senior" and just wanted to share what first came to me with this thread. I admit I did not read all the posts, and also that I am in no condition to engage in a talk. Sorry if I came across as contrarian to you. I just hope to have contributed to a dialectic, and I hope that no one has an agenda to promote something over the other. If I found a shaman elder that I deeply trust and revere, I would tell my close friends and family about it to see if they are interested, and it wouldn't be over internet forums. If I get the time I will read about your experiences. I am deeply interested in shamanic traditions. I will not write anymore. Take care.

Hey @dithyramb, thank you for this. I too apologize if I didn't receive your response graciously. I'm taking a substantial amount of heat here and while I try my best to field it with understanding and tolerance, the amount of push-back and attempts to demean me, analyze me, or suggest that I have some superiority agenda is kinda disheartening honestly. Do read through my posts if you are curious, and if there is indeed evidence of me trying to tell people how to trip or what to believe let me know. I will own up to it and grow. I appreciate your humility and acknowledgments . . . a lot. It is this kind of dialogue that I would like to see more of here in the Nexus.

 

[Here&Now]

I think it's true that the forum leans overall towards the logical/rational, but that could be thought of as its greatest strength when considering all the chemistry-based discoveries and innovative teks that have arisen from here over the years. Who knows where the psychedelic community would be if the DMT-Nexus wasn't so scientifically inclined? In my opinion, it's a super fair tradeoff that some members don't immediately buy into fantastical ideas, even if others of us are sure some of those ideas are real.