Autumn Olive (E. umbellata) Workspace

[SnozzleBerry]

This thread is meant to serve as a locus for information regarding the extraction of Elaeagnus umbellata (colloquially known as autumn olive) as well as articles and documentation relating to this shrub, its alkaloids and any peripheral information that may be of relevance.

So far, I have attempted an extraction by the following procedure:

1. ~100 grams of twigs/bark/branches was shredded in a blender
2. Shredded material was placed in two THPs, each one containing ~half the material
3. 10L of acidified water was run through each THP
4. The resulting dark red brew was reduced to ~1L
5. The brew was strained through coffee filters, requiring a decent amount of filter replacement, due to the high quantity of fats/oils
6. The solids/oils stuck in the filter were discarded
7. The brew was based with a solution of NaOH, whereupon precipitates formed
8. The precipitates were incredibly muddy and with some effort and a great deal of filters, was collected
9. The filters containing the precipitates were dunked in vinegar, resulting in the redissolving of the alkaloids (as well as some of the fats, no doubt, but it was the easiest way to retain the alks with minimal loss).
10. The acidified solution was poured through a coffee filter
11. The solids/filters were discarded
12. The solution was re-based
13. The precipitates were collected
14. Steps 9-13 were repeated, whereupon the filters/alkaloids were allowed to dry
15. The dried alkaloids were removed from the filter and redissolved in vinegar
16. The solution was run through a coffee filter, freebased one last time, collected in a coffee filter and allowed to dry

At this point I have a tannish/brownish powder that looks very similar to harmalas from caapi or rue. There is a small quantity of it, due in part to the oily nature of the brew, which resulted in my discarding part of it to get the extraction done quicker as this was merely to verify if reasonably clean alkaloids could be obtained. Now that I have confirmed the presence of what I believe to be harmaloids, I will be trying this method again with 400g of material and a defat step added after the initial brewing, prior to the first basification. The bottom of my blender broke, so I will be using a pressure cooker rather than a blender to lyse the cells.

Lastly, I have attached PDFs that relate to the alkaloids found in E. umbellata, including one or two of the PDF's I posted in Russian olive thread, so as to maintain as complete a documentation as possible.

 

[SnozzleBerry]

After following the above procedure with PC'd bark, I found the yield from 400g of whole PC'd material to be nearly equivalent to yield from 100g of shredded and boiled material. This indicated that merely PC'ing bark/twig chunks is insufficient for extraction purposes. I will be obtaining a food processor soon and will hopefully be able to continue experimenting this week.

I have succeeded in obtaining both tan powdery extract and reddish-brown chunks that crumble into a red-brown powder. These products seem to be related to each other inasmuch as some of the tan stuff turns to red when allowed to dry with or without heat; indicating to me that this is probably oxidization or something along those lines. Benzyme has suggested this may be from excessive pH (I've been basing with lye). I will either re-a/b this extract with vinegar/ammonia, or I will a/b the new material with vinegar/ammonia.

The leaf extract is coming along as well; it's currently filtering from its third a/b and looks similar to the bark extract. As I'm still narrowing down a consistent/efficient means of extracting, I feel any yield comparison would be premature.

I hope to get a food processor today and will continue experimenting as my schedule permits. If anyone has any ideas or suggestions, I'd love to hear them...right now I'm just kinda riding roughshod and trying anything that sounds like it's worthwhile given what I've seen and been able to get thus far.

 

[Felnik]

I,ve found that bark that's wet can be chopped in a blender fairly well

 

[SnozzleBerry]

I,ve found that bark that's wet can be chopped in a blender fairly well

Yea, I was chopping mine in my blender pretty decently, but the rubber spinner on the bottom got destroyed somehow...I'm guessing a piece of material got wedged and caused the bottom spinner to spin into the rubber part of the blade mechanism in such a manner that it blasted right through it. Either way, without a replacement part, the blender blade doesn't spin and I figured a food processor is probably better suited to the task. I'm gonna check out the PTA thriftstore on my lunch break

 

[Dorge]

Good work

 

[SnozzleBerry]

Just smoked a pinch of A/B extracted Autumn olive...feels like harmalas

I smoked it out of the end of an herbal cig I rolled, it definitely feels rather potent for the amount I smoked...I'm gonna try some oral or sublingual this weekend.

It's a shame the yields are so low...this bioassay has me intrigued.

 

[Dorge]

The stuff works great!

 

[SnozzleBerry]

It should be noted that when the extract was left out in the open air for a week or so, the darker reddish clumps autoxidized to the same color as the tan extract...so the sampled extract was of a uniform color nearly identical to light tan alkaloids from caapi/rue.

I will be proceeding with a methanol extraction as well as finishing up another a/b that is currently in progress over the next 2-3 weeks and will post the results as soon as I have any.

I hope to have oral bioassay results by the end of this weekend.

 

[balaganist]

Not been at the Nexus much over the last year...
But very pleased at the findings around the Elaeagnus species! I am researching into edible forest gardens atm for my permaculture diploma, and Elaeagnus are one of the most useful species as they are both good nitrogen fixers and produce edible fruits - and they grow well in the UK (although they do not appear in the wild here afaik)
Now I find they have medicinal qualities too!

I would be interested in finding out about simple teas made from the root bark and/or leaves... if this could be used as an alternative base for an ayahuasca analog.

Great stuff!

 

[Felnik]

A dumb question perhaps but . What would the legal status be of this autumn olive tree
Or its bark be for example.
Bark itself or an extract of the bark . Does the presence of THH make it illegal ?

 

[MelCat]

I thought harmalas were legal except in France and a couple of other countries?

 

[jamie]

bump..any updates?

 

[SnozzleBerry]

Sorry...I was out of town this weekend due to last minute plans and didn't get to bioassay yet (Atlanta's botanical gardens are beautiful btw, if anyone winds up in the area and has the opportunity, you should definitely check it out ). Tomorrow evening is looking good, so that's the current plan.

As to legality, the compounds should be legal wherever caapi/rue is legal...the plant is legal in most places where harmalas are legal, but due to its being categorized as noxious/invasive in certain areas, it may be worth checking your local state laws to verify. That being said, I have a hard time believing someone would get busted for harvesting this plant...how many people would even know what it is?

 

[SnozzleBerry]

~200mg+ of uniform tan alkaloids were ingested via "parachute" and followed by several oz of water. Initial placebo effects were felt at around 5 minutes and wore of by 10 minutes. Around 45-60 minutes mental effects similar to light harmalas/cannabis were noted. There was no typical "harmala warmth" at 30 minutes as usually noted with harmine/harmaline/caapi. Around 60 minutes in, light CEVs were noted while in the shower in addition to the mental effects. No body load or nausea was encountered.

Around 1.5-2 hours in, cannabis was smoked (and again at about 3 hours). Despite a low tolerance which makes for light paranoia at moments, no anxiety was noted and the effects seemed in line with lower dose harmala/cannabis smoking blends. All in all I would say it was active and definitely functioned as a RIMA to some degree (cheese was consumed with no noted hypertensive effects) but more testing is needed. I'm essentially out of extract...but when I get more I will be trying an oral dose of ~300mg and vaporized doses of around 100mg to confirm that this is not placebo.

 

[YTXian]

Well I tried a Manske on some leaf but it didn't yeild anything worth posting IMO.
I did notice from the literature posted that yeilds would be veary low (especialy this time of year/season).
I also noticed that although the yeilds may be low, the substance it self is quite potent.
So I have about 1 Kilo of bark which I've pealed apart into thin layers (easily) and then used a paper cutter to chop into around 1 square cm. peices.
Next I plan to grind these peices into powder with a coffee grinder in the same manner some grind MHRB. Should be easier on the grinder than MHRB though as the peices are quite thin and soft. Almost like paper.
I haven't decided on an extraction route yet. Haven't given up on the idea of useing a Manske.
Or perhaps I'll follow in your trackes Snozzelberry.
Two questions for anybody with the knowledge;
Do you think it would be easier to de-fat before or after redux of the initial liquid extraction? I'd like to know about this in general for any extraction since I find defatting to be a time and solvent consuming pain in the butt.
and
Is grinding it to a powder (in anyones opinion or hypothesis) perhaps overkill that will result in a massive amount of fat being pulled? I mean to say that the peices of bark I now have are quite thin mostly and I'm sure they will allow for pretty good polar extraction with some time and heat but I'd like to maximize my yeild. At the same time if powder will result in a massive fat congestion in my filters then maybe it's eaisier to just use more bark peices since there seems to be no limit in sight for how much I can obtain. Stuff is everywhere!
I'll post my results for sure but I'd love some input from these brilliant minds here.

 

[Felnik]

All I can add is that a simple salt extraction from bark yielded a
Powder with definite potency. The bark was ground in a blender with water
Prior to boiling. A lot of bark is needed for a workable amount of extracted material.
The synergy this stuff has with spice is well worth the trouble in my opinion. And the
Fact that there Is a never-ending supply of it everywhere.
My hunch is that a less pure final product is more effective in this case.
The sum of its parts is where the magic is.

 

[SnozzleBerry]

I found defatting not to remove anything significant and to be a bit of a pain...perhaps that was a fluke though.

I wouldn't grind down to a powder...shredded in a blender/food processor seems to be enough, ime.

 

[YTXian]

Thanks You two!

OK. I'm gonna go for it with a Manske and leave the bark in a fine chop/shred. No defat.
I'll report back.
Thanks again!

 

[YTXian]

Ok! I seperated about a kilo of bark into two piles. I never did grind it into powder. This bark was cut into ruffly one square cm. peices, about paper-cardboard thickness.
I simmered all of it in acidified water, made acidic with hydrocloricacid (muratic). PH around 3.5-2.0 (my ph meter isn't trustworthy untill I get the right buffers to calibrate it though). This yeilded a dark amber liquid which I split in half. One half I did a simple basification (I wonder if I'm just making up words here somtimes:lol: ) after filtering with THP and cotton balls and, coffee filters. Filtering was the most work involved. Took alot of time and patience. Sodium carbonate for the base. This yeilded light colored percipitates that I strained from the liquid and let dry.

For the other half I did a salt percipitation and let it sit for a few days in hopes of growing some crystals. I filtered of the percipitates and let it dry as well.

Both batches look nearly the same. The salt percipitates have sparkly square crystals on the surface, presumably from the salt.

Both are a dark brown clay-like substance that is brittle and breaks up into a fine powder.

I smoked some. By itself it seems to have slight phycotropic qualitys, making solid walls look glassy and translucent...A least that's my interpretation of perception.

I smoked some with some spice. A sub treshhold dose of spice. On a bed of painted nettle leaf (Coleus Blumei). Painted nettle is phycoactive but not one little dry leaf.

Cool! DMT's usual awsome visuals. The kind one sees in the long term when combined with an MAOI, plus little extra blings and things on the tips...(this description of hallucinations seems pointless, I know).

The point is that yes; MAO inhibition did occure. I can get this from low doses of my harmala extract (thanks to The Tao of Rue Extraction! my favorite tek yet! ) So the real test will be to take an oral dose with some fumarate spice. If this is as potent as I've read, I should even be able to fit a whole pharma dose into one capsule!

I agree with Felnik; purifying this would probably take away from it, rather than add to it, it's desirable qualitys. So I will do a clean up on half of it and eventualy bio-essay both the refined and the crude extracts.

 

[SnozzleBerry]

I'm not clear as to why you guys think the impure extract is more desirable. We know that the total alk% in this plant is incredibly low...so even if you have an impure extract, it doesn't mean more alks/greater effectiveness imo, just more other stuff from the plant. Can you explain why you feel impure to be superior? I haven't tried any of my impure extract, so I can't really comment.