• Members of the previous forum can retrieve their temporary password here, (login and check your PM).

Autumn Olive (E. umbellata) Workspace

Migrated topic.
Fwiw, every single document aside from your first link (but including your second) I've seen has indicated that harman is insoluble or poorly soluble in water, so I find myself leaning towards that being the case. It would be awesome to get a standard and do some experiments to find out for sure :)

As to the point on fluorescence...that's awesome! I'll go check and see if a more dilute concentration of A. anisopetala glows brighter than the concentrated tea I made. Thanks for pointing that out :thumb_up:

Also welcome to the Nexus, it's great to have you here.
 
Thanks :). The main compounds in those olives (and sea-buckthorn, which is a plant everyone here has forget :?: ), are harmane, dihydroharmane (isomer of harmalan, or probably it's even the same compound, the only distinction is the position of an double bound), tetrahydroharmane (elaeagnine, 1-methyltryptoline, methtryptoline), and N-Methyl-1,2,3,4-tetrahydro-beta-carboline (2-methyltryptoline).


Aside from reversible MAO-A inhibition; harman, and harmalan are also very potent imidazoline receptor agonists (both I-1, and I-2), their potency in those receptors is some 10-fold higher than in MAO-A inhibition, they are also more selective towards the I-1 receptor. Harmane is also proposed as endogenous ligand for imidazoline receptors (it's endogenous like DMT, in contrast to harmaline, and harmine).


Harmane produces hypotension following microinjection into the RVLM: possible role of I1-imidazoline receptors.
(They say that there are problems with injections of harmane to rats because of it's poor solubility, so you were probably correct about that)


I-1 receptor activation induces hypotensive, and anxiolytic action without affecting the heart rate, and without sedative effects. I-2 receptor is somehow associated with MAO enzyme; it's postulated as an allosteric binding of MAO-B receptor, and it's activation induces release of noradrenaline.

Harmaline, and harmine have almost no activity at I-1 receptor, they are active at I-2 instead. Harmalan have also some activity at serotonin receptors, mainly 5-HT7, and 5-HT5A. I've taken most of the receptors binding affinities from PubChem databases.

This means that plants from oleaster family can be more anxiolytic and safer alternative than more known MAO-A inhibitors. Their antidepresant potency could be better than most pharmaceutical drugs. It's a very inquiring discovery.
 
blueshake said:
Harmaline, and harmine have almost no activity at I-1 receptor, they are active at I-2 instead. Harmalan have also some activity at serotonin receptors, mainly 5-HT7, and 5-HT5A. I've taken most of the receptors binding affinities from PubChem databases.

This means that plants from oleaster family can be more anxiolytic and safer alternative than more known MAO-A inhibitors. Their antidepresant potency could be better than most pharmaceutical drugs. It's a very inquiring discovery.
Click to expand...

This is an awesome post...thanks so much for sharing. It would be great if we could get people to do some subjective tests on the effects of microdosing/dosing caapi/rue harmalas vs. autumn/russian olive harmalas. Perhaps we could create a protocol of some sort to see how they stack up as far as antidepressants and inhibitors for use with oral dmt.

I saw that a local thrift store has some food processors back in stock, in the event that renting a wood chipper is not feasible. I hope to process a bunch of autumn olive in the next couple months and continue to experiment with extractions and maybe some brews.
 
Correction for harman activity: it's active as MAOI-A at K(i)=55.54+/-5.3nM, so it's potency is 3-12 times lower than harmine, and 4-6 times lower than harmaline. Also harman imidazoline receptor affinities are I(1)-36nM, and I(2)-54nM, so it's around potency of it's MAO-A inhibiting properties.

Human monoamine oxidase is inhibited by tobacco smoke: beta-carboline alkaloids act as potent and reversible inhibitors.


It also seems to induce an outburst of dopamine from neurons 18 times greater than nicotine, and that effect is mediated mostly by nicotinic receptor stimulation. A dose needed for that is 180 times greater than a threshold dose of nicotine, so it would be around 150 mg of harman.

Electrophysiological characterization of harmane-induced activation of mesolimbic dopamine neurons.

Such a release of dopamine could be even neurotoxic, because of oxidation of dopamine to harmful compounds by enzymes, and oxidative stress. The MAO-A enzyme is inhibited so it increases the neuroprotection, and decreases neurotoxic metabolites of dopamine. If dopamine is in too large amounts the MAOs will start to metabolize it to neurotoxic metabolites. But anyway it doesn't seem so sweet as before, although it is only one study, in one part of the rat brain, by a direct injection.

And I wouldn't use a food procesor for crushing the bark, failure with using that method is inevitable. It's bettter to wait until it's completely dry, put it in a bag, and then crush it with hands, or if the chunks are bigger with a hammer.
 
blueshake said:
Correction for harman activity: it's active as MAOI-A at K(i)=55.54+/-5.3nM, so it's potency is 3-12 times lower than harmine, and 4-6 times lower than harmaline....But anyway it doesn't seem so sweet as before, although it is only one study, in one part of the rat brain, by a direct injection.
Click to expand...
True...but some people like to use passionflower and say that with vaped DMT, it can go along way. These potency numbers (ignoring the potential dopamine issues for the moment) would seem to put autumn/russian olive somewhere between caapi/rue and passionflower, albeit with a different alkaloidal profile...but still interesting and worth exploring, imo.

blueshake said:
And I wouldn't use a food procesor for crushing the bark, failure with using that method is inevitable. It's bettter to wait until it's completely dry, put it in a bag, and then crush it with hands, or if the chunks are bigger with a hammer.
Click to expand...
Really? The best success I had processing the material was last year with a food processor.

Given the minuscule % alkaloids reported by the literature, it hardly seemed worthwhile to invest the time or effort to hand-process kilos of material. Perhaps it's worth noting that I do not have many large specimens around me, so I'm working with a lot of relatively small plants and in some cases, even taking the time to separate the bark from the twiggy branches was not worth it. A pressure cooker goes a long way with respect to this, but i found that even one run through a food processor could greatly reduce the amount of pressure cooking needed.

Do you really feel a hammer is the quickest/least involved manner for processing autumn olive? How have you been processing/extracting?
 
I was thinking only about safety, not about time nad yield. If the food processor didn't brake, then I think it is a better idea.

And I didn't do any extraction yet, I have about 100g of russian olive leaves, but I don't have pure lye or HCl as for now, and I don't know which extraction would be best either. I was thinking about using vinegar, reduce the liquid, and doing Manske to crystalize. But if there isn't much of the alkaloids then Manske will just not work. I will appreciate any advice :).

I also have 2 russian olive, and 2 sea-buckthorn shrubs growing some 40 m near my house, so I only have to walk past the street. Also I don't want to use bark but leaves, I read somewhere on erowid that banisteriopsis caapi have twice the amount of alkaloids in the leaves than in the bark/twigs. And the sea-buckthorn is an endangered species here where I live, so I don't want to use bark.

As for now I will probably be using russian olive leaves. If I'm correct about the twice amounts if the leaves, the 100g of leaves should produce some 640 mg of alkaloids. But that only is wishful thinking.

Banisteriopsis; A few of the published analytical accounts
 
I really think this stuff is worth exploring . Under the right circumstances there are noticable effects especially when combined with spice.

It has very unique effects that are different from caapi and rue .

My experience is based on crude salt extractions from bark and A/B on leaf material

Is it possible to get an analysis on the actual alkaloid content of this ?
 
I precipitated something out, but it's a rather small yield, and I don't have UV light to check it. I kept the remaining liquid. I was using vinegar, tried Manske(fail) and sodium carbonate/bicarbonate. There where I live they don't sell sodium carbonate as washing soda, so I made it by heating sodium bicarbonate in water.

But in the end I put some sodium bicarbonate in it too(mistake :thumb_dow), so I just put it in the freezer and sodium bicarb was laying on the bottom. The precipitate was laying on top of the sodium bicarb. I separated the precipitate from most of the liquid, and from the sodium bicarb. But something tells me that precipitate is just impurities.
 

Attachments

  • 123.png
    123.png
    581.1 KB · Views: 0
The previous extraction was a failure (sodium carbonate doesn't work). Now I brewed some bark of sea-buckthorn, and solution appears green in UV light. I once tried to brew a neetle, and sage to check the color in uv light, and it also was green. Why? Is the tannic acid in UV light green? Cuz the chlorophyll is red, and I checked that too. The harmalas are fluorizing blue as far as I know... Help anyone?
 
..first up, thanks Snozzleberry for starting this thread, which i've been quietly following..i'm really fascinated by what harmala (or dmt) sources can be grown in colder climates..

blueshake wrote:
Harmane is also proposed as endogenous ligand for imidazoline receptors (it's endogenous like DMT, in contrast to harmaline, and harmine).
Click to expand...
..just want to point out 'harmane' is a synonym for Harman, the endogenous harmala..
there are some references to it's potent MAO-A (& B) activity in the Passifloras of Interest thread, here and following page..
The harmalas are fluorizing blue as far as I know... Help anyone?
Click to expand...
..i don't have the actual wavelength data, and i'm not a chemist, but i have seen standard harmalas usually glowing 'greeny-blue' under UV..
.
 
blueshake said:
But something tells me that precipitate is just impurities.
Click to expand...
Was this just a gut feeling, or as a result of the bicarb or some other evidence? Did you ever try the extract? Not that I don't believe you, I'm just a curious dude 😉 Sorry for the delayed reply, I missed the posts in this thread somehow.


blueshake said:
Now I brewed some bark of sea-buckthorn, and solution appears green in UV light. I once tried to brew a neetle, and sage to check the color in uv light, and it also was green. Why? Is the tannic acid in UV light green? Cuz the chlorophyll is red, and I checked that too. The harmalas are fluorizing blue as far as I know... Help anyone?
Click to expand...

Ime, harmalas in solution fluoresce more of a blue-green than a straight blue. On whitish paper or cardstock, they can fluoresce more in the blue range, but I think this has to do with the paper. It is worth noting that the non-harmala, assumed beta-carbolines that are in A. anisopetala also appear to glow a green or green-brown even, at least in higher concentrations. I hope to test a more dilute solution of A. anisopetala soon and report back on that, but as nen said, the 'greeny-blue' is common for harmala fluorescence and in the presence of other material, I could imagine it getting pushed towards the green spectrum.

My memory of it is not too great, but I could have sworn that the autumn olive also had a decently green glow under UV. I can grab some and check that as well in the near-future.


And thanks to you too, nen...I'm a huge fan of your work as well, I've just never played around with acacia, so I tend to be more of an observer than a participant :d
 
SnozzleBerry said:
blueshake said:
But something tells me that precipitate is just impurities.
Click to expand...
Was this just a gut feeling, or as a result of the bicarb or some other evidence? Did you ever try the extract? Not that I don't believe you, I'm just a curious dude 😉 Sorry for the delayed reply, I missed the posts in this thread somehow.
Click to expand...

I used too much sodium bicarb, there was no activity (though I don't have anything to activate), and when I washed it with vinegar it get fizzy as hell. So yeah it probably was all sodium bicarb with plant material. Now I have pure lye, but don't know how to weight it. And I don't know how to grind the bark, my food processor is too weak for that kind of grinding. Is putting it all in lemon juice work, for breaking the plant cells I mean?

Also mu UV light is a light from invisible pen, it's rather weak, and probably doesn't get full UV spectrum, like bodily fluids or ripe banana peels doesn't color with it, but it colors chlorophill, witamin b12, colza oil, banknotes, very white fiberous things, amber, price labels, fluorescent things, turmeric. And it doesn't make things glowing, just colored. And I won't be getting better UV.

Edit: I added some lye, and the solution started to be clearer, the precipitate (with original color of the solution) was floating on top, and it looked like some fats/oils. I added more lye to the point that the precipitate completely dissolved (probably turned into soap). Then the very dark red/brown solution(almost black), with disgusting "fish like" smell started to precipitate something or rather very low amounts of precipitate started to become visible. The question is: Is that smell a sign that I should throw it or is it normal?
 
😁 any one ever tried russian olive tree its quite nice.
i live in wyoming and there is ton of russian olive trees.
i have been searching the web for a couple months and looking for any thing i can do with the local plants, and i happen to stumble into some interesting info about russian olive trees on this site.


ive done russian olive multiple times (smoked, tea, vaped, powder) and i think its great
for me it makes life more "clear"
it has an affect that it makes the plant stick out
u appreciate them more
u feel them
 
Heres a bump for you folks-

Wild harvested Russian Olive root bark was extracted in a method similar to
(Pictorial Guide to Caapi Vine Alkaloid Extraction - Harmalas - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus) this lovely pictorial
by gibran2.

I have attached an image of this red coloured extract.
After agitating the A-B extract with hot methanol the solution was filtered
and the filtrate collected and evaporated to yield white-blue crystals- the crystals were totally white until the last ~30mL of methanol evaporated and left this blue compound. An image is attached.

I'll find some images of the compounds fluorescence under UV soon along with some details about the fraction of the A-B extract that is soluble in Methanol (among other solvents if there is time).
 

Attachments

  • Russian+Olive+AB.JPG
    Russian+Olive+AB.JPG
    4.5 MB · Views: 0
  • Russian+Olive+AB%2BMeOh.JPG
    Russian+Olive+AB%2BMeOh.JPG
    4.2 MB · Views: 0
hyper said:
Heres a bump for you folks-

Wild harvested Russian Olive root bark was extracted in a method similar to
(Pictorial Guide to Caapi Vine Alkaloid Extraction - Harmalas - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus) this lovely pictorial
by gibran2.

I have attached an image of this red coloured extract.
After agitating the A-B extract with hot methanol the solution was filtered
and the filtrate collected and evaporated to yield white-blue crystals- the crystals were totally white until the last ~30mL of methanol evaporated and left this blue compound. An image is attached.

I'll find some images of the compounds fluorescence under UV soon along with some details about the fraction of the A-B extract that is soluble in Methanol (among other solvents if there is time).
Click to expand...
Very nice work! I'll be out looking for some of the Eleagnacaeae when I've the time.
 
Back
Top Bottom