Ayahausca and Psilocybin; are they friends?

[ControlledChaos]

The last time I sat with Ayahausca I had some profound realizations that I decided to go for awhile without Ayahausca to really sit on it. However since I view psilocybin and Ayahausca as teachers in their own right and separate I decided to have a pretty big dose of shrooms tea tonight. One thing that struck me was the way these medicines seem to have different angles. Ayahausca can have it's fun moments but it can be quite dedicated to taking you on a big lesson like it's a classroom and it can get pretty forceful about this. Psilocybin seems more like a cool uncle, but there's a twist. You can hang out with this cool uncle and have a lot of fun, but when it's time to get down to the real stuff that needs to be pondered, it does not hold back. For me the beginning of a shroom trip is always incredibly euphoric and friendly, but at some point it does peak and the heavier stuff bears down hard. What they have in common is that they both reward you for engaging with what it is they are trying to tell you. I think there's value in both forms of teaching and of course some trips are exceptions.

Sometimes it almost seems like the two plant spirits have somewhat of a rivalry over which can do more to help/impress me. Of course that's probably just me projecting a human ego onto plants and it's probably just my reaction to them respectively but it's a fun way to look at it and I'm definitely more than willing to listen to both, as I feel both give me things to think about.

I like to think that the mushroom spirit and the Ayahausca spirit are on the same team but disagree on the way of going about it. The visuals are strikingly similar and the less super intense Ayahausca trips feel almost identical. However, Ayahuasca visuals usually go above and beyond to the point where fully formed things emerge much more than on mushrooms. I think my experience tonight made me respect psilocybin a lot and I feel the teaching was very helpful. Still unsure when I'll return to the Aya but I think I still have some integration to do. Anyways just my two cents on the differences between the two. These are psychedelics so of course, these ideas could be shown incorrect on future trips but overall this is how I've seen. What do you think, are these two plants friends?

 

[Tomtegubbe]

I believe it's the relationship you build with them. You can expect a bit different mental and physical reactions from them and one may feel more familiar and manageable than the other, but I believe there is enormous potential with both, you just have to learn to treat both on their own terms.

That being said, there's lots of fun things you can do on mushrooms. It has the cool uncle side to it. Take half a gram and go for a walk with a friend and have good time. You can watch a show or listen to a concert even if you take a bit more. Ayahuasca requires your whole attention and is very serious teacher. It demands respect and pays back your respect. Besides the lessons you get while tripping, it teaches you the right attitude towards life in general by acting like this.

 

[dragonrider]

I think the caapi is the main difference between the two. The effects of the amounts of caapi people in the west usually consume to activate the oral DMT, are quite subtle compared to the effects of DMT. But they are significant.

In more traditional settings though, people usually ingest larger quantities of caapi, up to the point that it's effects are very prominently present.

But even when caapi's effects are subtle, they make all the difference to me.

I must admit that my knowledge of the cultures of the people in the amazon region, like the shipibo and conibo, is very limited, but i believe that caapi is considered a more sacred plant by them, than chacruna or chaliponga.

I think this is because caapi, even when it's effects are not as "powerfull" in for instance the visual way, more deeply affects the soul.

It is hard to describe exactly, but it seems to open up your soul in a way, other hallucinogens usually don't.
But words realy fall short here. It does something to the soul, that is very subtle, yet very powerfull, and that also, in general, tends to be very positive.

Most of ayahuasca's remarkable healing powers, or this is at least what i personally suspect, come from these effects, from the caapi vine.

 

[ControlledChaos]

I believe it's the relationship you build with them. You can expect a bit different mental and physical reactions from them and one may feel more familiar on manageable than the other, but I believe there is enormous potential with both, you just have to learn to treat both on their own terms.

That being said, there's lots of fun things you can do on mushrooms. It has the cool uncle side to it. Take half a gram and go for a walk with a friend and have good time. You can watch a show or listen to a concert even if you take a bit more. Ayahuasca requires your whole attention and is very serious teacher. It demands respect and pays back your respect. Besides the lessons you get while tripping, it teaches you the right attitude towards life in general by acting like this.

I had a pretty good dose tonight but I can't say I've really had a chance to go as deep or deeper than Ayahausca with mushrooms. And that means 5 g's or even more, ingested at once. I've had a pretty good amount of experience with ayahuasca so far and I do think my relationship with it has came far from the first terrifying "attack" that my first time with it felt like. Over time me and the plant got more on the same page and I look forward to seeing where I can go with it next when I'm called to it. I have my dose ready when that call comes. I think I need to try doing some heavier Ayahausca level work with higher mushroom doses so I can see what it has to offer. I think tonight was a good start but I might want to go even deeper next time.

 

[Sabnock1990]

You should check out Psilohuasca (mushrooms and Harmalas/Caapi/Rue), it's way better, at least ime, than mushrooms by themselves, and is very Aya-like, quite similar to regular Aya, but a little different. Also you can use just a few grams of mushrooms with Harmalas for a pretty deep/heavy experience, and the duration can stretch out to 9 to 12 hours (when done right, as in taking the mushrooms like 30 minutes to an hour after the Harmalas, when gut MAO-A is fully inhibited).

 

[Tomtegubbe]

I had a pretty good dose tonight but I can't say I've really had a chance to go as deep or deeper than Ayahausca with mushrooms. And that means 5 g's or even more, ingested at once. I've had a pretty good amount of experience with ayahuasca so far and I do think my relationship with it has came far from the first terrifying "attack" that my first time with it felt like. Over time me and the plant got more on the same page and I look forward to seeing where I can go with it next when I'm called to it. I have my dose ready when that call comes. I think I need to try doing some heavier Ayahausca level work with higher mushroom doses so I can see what it has to offer. I think tonight was a good start but I might want to go even deeper next time.

I'd advice you to still give time for these experiences to mature and not rush to go deeper. The hyperspace doesn't like to be pushed. When you are in receptive mood, have thought your intentions through and feel the respectful vibe you are more likely to bring something valuable back from the trip.

Psilohuasca by the way is a great idea. Haven't done that for a long time, but only have positive memories from it.

 

[dragonrider]

Yeah, psilohuasca is realy nice. And it has a longer duration as well, depending on how much caapi you take. Wich i think is a bonus, because it realy gives you the time to go deeper.

The most positive experience i've ever had with caapi, was actually with psilohuasca.

It realy can bring out the best in mushrooms.

Maybe it's not realy in line with the traditions, but it is most definately not, in any way, a lesser experience than caapi/chacruna or caapi/chaliponga experiences. It is totally on the same level, in terms of mind opening and immersion.

 

[Voidmatrix]

If I'm not mistaken, there are certain ceremonies in South America that employ both Aya and the mushroom. And sometimes things like salvia and datura..

I have yet to do Aya (I'll get there at some point), but I enjoy smoalking DMT on mushrooms. Beautiful synergy.

In one DMT journey I received a message, and towards the end, something told me to be sure to do the mushroom and that DMT and the mushroom are friends.

One love

 

[downwardsfromzero]

The combination of harmaline and harmine alone can display an impressive power and depth. Of the various natural compounds I've tried, they appear to bring the most accessible form of healing and developmental efficacy perhaps because they are less objectively 'psychedelic' and more like a waking dream or hypnogogia. It seems to me more straightforward nowadays to use something more akin to sleeping while being cognitively crystal clear and calmly confronting the essence of the issues at hand, than to commit to navigating the wild patterns and psychological illusions of the classic psychedelics - at least on a everyday, workaday, weekday basis. And I say this in the wake of a deeply moving rue experience which has set a whole lot of things straight for me.

That considered, I would still use psychedelics - including in combination with harmalas - but because of the degree to which psychedelics out-and-out open one up this always entails a far greater degree of attention to set, setting and overall ritual in contrast to the more protected space that I feel comes with harmalas. The harmalas act as a buffer against unwanted energetic influences from the wider world, is one way of looking at it. They certainly seem to buffer various kinds of sensory input in particular ways. This is something I feel makes them intrinsically more manageable.

I can only look forward to being able to add some more experiential insight on psilohuasca but that is something being given my utmost care in preparation as there are a number of very specific factors which will be addressed before proceeding. Being able to afford the duration is one of them.

 

[Voidmatrix]

The combination of harmaline and harmine alone can display an impressive power and depth. Of the various natural compounds I've tried, they appear to bring the most accessible form of healing and developmental efficacy perhaps because they are less objectively 'psychedelic' and more like a waking dream or hypnogogia. It seems to me more straightforward nowadays to use something more akin to sleeping while being cognitively crystal clear and calmly confronting the essence of the issues at hand, than to commit to navigating the wild patterns and psychological illusions of the classic psychedelics - at least on a everyday, workaday, weekday basis. And I say this in the wake of a deeply moving rue experience which has set a whole lot of things straight for me.

That considered, I would still use psychedelics - including in combination with harmalas - but because of the degree to which psychedelics out-and-out open one up this always entails a far greater degree of attention to set, setting and overall ritual in contrast to the more protected space that I feel comes with harmalas. The harmalas act as a buffer against unwanted energetic influences from the wider world, is one way of looking at it. They certainly seem to buffer various kinds of sensory input in particular ways. This is something I feel makes them intrinsically more manageable.

I can only look forward to being able to add some more experiential insight on psilohuasca but that is something being given my utmost care in preparation as there are a number of very specific factors which will be addressed before proceeding. Being able to afford the duration is one of them.

I agree with DF0 here (and hopes he shares his deeply moving experience). Rue is a paradox in being subtle but powerful. I am also one that works with rue daily (sometimes twice a day), and while I do use traditional psychedelics to assist me psychologically and spiritually, rue is a powerful adjunct, allowing for a novel kind of clarity within the realm of introspection. I often drink my rue tea at my meditation alter, and is known (to me) as a rumination

One love

 

[downwardsfromzero]

Technical outline here: Dmt breakthrough maoi mistake - First steps in Hyperspace - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

Experiential aspects (besides talking to Death) I struggle to remember already, there was so much content and it was a real, serious focus on what's been going on in my life on all the different time scales. There was both soaring euphoria and harsh truth, but the harmalas helped find the courage to face up to a lot of dark things. One meditative aspect, in a way, was the power of mindfully controlling my facial expression in order to steer the quality of the experience. When energy seemed to be stuck and self-negating, I would move from a frown to a beatific or joyful expression and the energy would shift to expansive and life-affirming while at the same time breakthrough psychoemotional insights were provided.

Spontaneous mantras were helpful as always. I have a strong inner voice and fortunately it was sufficient to deliver efficacy with an inner recitation, at the appropriate times, along the lines of the following:
"I choose contrition, I choose humility, I choose forgiveness, I choose responsibility, I choose communication, I choose love".

There were a few bits of synchronicity with my interior experience and happenings in the outside world, such as the blackbird singing in the night that kindly made alarm calls each time the visions tried to tempt me into erotic fantasy.

One of these days it will be good to be able to make use of some additional modalities like music, vocalization and scent. Spontaneous mudras while reclined in silent darkness are not to be knocked, of course, considering how much of a journey this was this time. Stepwise and systematic shall be my watchwords when it comes to expanding my skillset.

And thanks for the reminder, VM, that I can give a little more time to my altar in preparation for these experiences. There is so much constant tidying and upkeep that giving my attention to what is effectively becoming a domestic temple often seems like more work than one man can do.

Join me in my prayers for strength, focus and motivation

 

[dithyramb]

Cheers, dfz! I've had a few such experiences with rue, the latest one three months ago. Facing your mortality in the eye, and seemingly infinite painful insights into this life path... The problem with these experiences is their fleeting nature...

 

[downwardsfromzero]

Since the above experience (of which it is good to be reminded) I've been focussing on social connections rather more. [The fact that it's practically the beginning of springtime really helps; I'm something of a hibernating type.] With these social connections I can begin to overcome the strategic and logistical obstacles that have been hindering my deeper exploration in recent years.

Lately, the path has been low-dose rue and this has help with what can best be described as 'charisma' and opened up some synchronicities - but I had to take that step of putting myself out there for this to have happened. The courage that I mentioned has been an important part of this. It feels as though rue has been holding my hand here and helped eliminate some social anxiety that had risked getting, er, out of hand.

Something I've noticed is that one cannot afford to become too attached to the experience will be such-and-such a thing from one day to another. These breakthrough moments will be interspersed with - or perhaps more rightly, they are the punctuations of - much longer periods of sociospiritual 'grunt work'.

 

[dithyramb]

Definitely the day to day grunt work is fundamental to this journey.

I did not mean that I prefer every experience to be of this quality. What I meant was that that impeccable connection to Truth is meant to be overriden by the clouded and confused ego perception... It's up to us how much we take from the experience to the rest of our lives. It seems you are on a good track. Happy for you!

 

[downwardsfromzero]

Definitely the day to day grunt work is fundamental to this journey.

I did not mean that I prefer every experience to be of this quality. What I meant was that that impeccable connection to Truth is meant to be overriden by the clouded and confused ego perception... It's up to us how much we take from the experience to the rest of our lives. It seems you are on a good track. Happy for you!

In no way was I implying that that was your preference - this was merely my own qualitative observation and I should perhaps get better at clearly articulating it as such. And in this particular case, my choice of third person pronoun likely contributed to some ambiguity.

Whatever, yes - I agree that these 'system updates', if you will, are meant to disappear back 'under the hood' as that type of mental state tends towards a level of incompatibility with day-to-day life. But then I wouldn't be experiencing that level of consciousness if I weren't laid down in quiet darkness, either. This stuff seems to have been training me to use my brain in certain ways at certain times.

Thanks for your support!