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b. caapi 30x extract
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69ron
Rising Star
Get CC. It's a better deal.
CC (Caapi Copy) is 200x. That's stuff is only 30x. So CC is 6.6 times more concentrated.
Cost wise, 1 gram of 30x is $15, and you get only 0.15 grams of alkaloids. 1 gram of CC costs about $32 and you get 1 gram of alkaloids, nearly 3 times as much for nearly the same price.
You can't get anything cheaper than CC. There's only 1 place that has a comparable price that sells a 200x (pure alkaloids), and it's a little more costly than CC is.
CC (Caapi Copy) is 200x. That's stuff is only 30x. So CC is 6.6 times more concentrated.
Cost wise, 1 gram of 30x is $15, and you get only 0.15 grams of alkaloids. 1 gram of CC costs about $32 and you get 1 gram of alkaloids, nearly 3 times as much for nearly the same price.
You can't get anything cheaper than CC. There's only 1 place that has a comparable price that sells a 200x (pure alkaloids), and it's a little more costly than CC is.
EZ4U2Shoot
Rising Star
69ron said:
How much of the Caapi Copy would one use in pharmahuasca using just the CC and pure white DMT?
69ron
Rising Star
EZ4U2Shoot said:
100-200 mg, depending on individual sensitivity. Everyone is a little different. SWIM prefers 200 mg.
For SWIM 100 mg is not enough. He needs at least 150 mg but prefers 200 mg. At 150 mg, it acts as an MAOI and enables the effects of DMT orally for SWIM, but it doesn’t add much to the experience. At 200 mg it adds a lot to the experience.
SWIM would use 200 mg of CC with 20 mg of DMT. That’s a very nice experience. SWIM prefers pure THH though. CC is quite different. It has the effects of B. caapi without the nausea. THH is very unique among the harmala alkaloids. It doesn’t cause any noticeable “mind fog”. Harmine and harmaline both cause “mind fog”, a sort of marijuana like effect which SWIM doesn’t like. Harmaline has this effect most of all. CC contains THH, harmine, and harmaline.
Pharmahuasca made using CC is just like authentic ayahuasca without the purge. Pharmahuasca made using THH is not like ayahuasca or rue. It’s a very different experience. Dosage for THH, harmine, and CC are the same. The dosage for harmaline is half that of the others.
Harmaline is a good cheap MAOI. SWIM finds the “mind fog” of harmaline a bit too much for his liking. Some people prefer it though. It’s great as a sleep aid and will greatly enhance your dreams if taken 15 minutes before sleep. It has a noticeable light sedative effect, but it doesn’t negatively affect the strength of other psychedelics like most sedatives can.
EZ4U2Shoot
Rising Star
You say you do it with 20 mg of DMT? When I do pharmahuasca using a crude extract of Syrian Rue (it is kind a bit dirty and you still usually purge, but it is better than Rue Tea) I usually use about what I get out of 5 or 6 grams of seed and couple it with 200-300 mg of DMT and smoke a few hundred mg on top of that. I don't usually find anything less than 150 mg of DMT very exciting. Granted, on that much, you certainly can't walk a straight line, much less ride a bike or operate machinery (although riding a bicycle in that state is quite fun and interesting, until the pain comes the next day). I'm just wondering then, if 200 mg of one of the good extracts you've mentioned would work well on 200 mg of DMT.69ron said:
Also, can you confirm please? You said dosage for harmaline is half that of harmine, THH, and CC? Harmaline is more potent than harmine? Not the other way around? I only ask for clarification because harmaline is less expensive than harmine, gram for gram. If that is so, then I should be able to get about 20 doses of harmaline from 1 gram for about $16 where as I would only get 10 doses of harmine from 1 gram for $24. Is this accurate?
Also, one more thing. Do you know how it works in conjunction with theobromine? I know that if I add 2 to 3 tablespoons of bakers coco to my Rue extract, it usually comes close to doubling the potency of my experience. I've been considering getting some 99% pure theobromine coco bean extract and trying that in my huasca.
For a point of reference when comparing CC to a 'crude' ethanolic extract-
The experience will be completely different. As with any crude brew compared to an isolated refined compound. It should not always be about 'what is cheaper' or 'the better deal'. there is more to the equation than that.
Compare a thick batch of ayahuasca prepared by the jungle shamans to a refined alkaloidal extract created by 'modern' people. COMPLETELY DIFFERENT EXPERIENCE. The ethanolic extract of caapi would be somewhere in between these two extremes.
Also something to consider when ingesting MAOI's is the method of preparation. It is a pretty serious matter to inhibit ones' MAO's and you would not want to ingest any trace of solvents when doing so. So it is very important that during the refinement process used to create CC, that only food grade/USP/reagent grade materials were used.
BTW, Hi everybody. I'm new hear.
The experience will be completely different. As with any crude brew compared to an isolated refined compound. It should not always be about 'what is cheaper' or 'the better deal'. there is more to the equation than that.
Compare a thick batch of ayahuasca prepared by the jungle shamans to a refined alkaloidal extract created by 'modern' people. COMPLETELY DIFFERENT EXPERIENCE. The ethanolic extract of caapi would be somewhere in between these two extremes.
Also something to consider when ingesting MAOI's is the method of preparation. It is a pretty serious matter to inhibit ones' MAO's and you would not want to ingest any trace of solvents when doing so. So it is very important that during the refinement process used to create CC, that only food grade/USP/reagent grade materials were used.
BTW, Hi everybody. I'm new hear.
I agree that you'll get much more from the experience if you buy caapi and extract it yourself - even if you do a fairly refined extraction, the result will be from your interaction with the plant rather than a for profit comodification of the plant. Besides, it's fun! Freebasing harmala alks is nothing like the caustic, acid, stinky-solvent extraction of DMT.
yes fun. I agree... "Salting out" harmala alkaloids appears to be very easy indeed, but with caapi the results are quite different. this process doesn't work and only salts out one of the alkaloids. forgot which. so the remainder is still in the solution.... it is rather difficult to obtain pure freebase caapi alkaloids without the use of petroleum solvents. this of course would be undesirable due to residues and inhibited mao's. i checked out the caapi copy at flowing visions site to learn a bit more about it. they claim a proprietary procedure which uses only water for a solvent, and they are somehow able to obtain 'pure' alkaloids with trace amounts of solid product residues from 'food grade materials'.
i have thought and thought but cannot conclude a possibility for freebasing caapi alkaloids without the use of any nonpolar solvents. anybody have any thoughts on this?
also their price seems a little bit too good to be true. maybe not, but it is alot of work processing large amounts of biomass. even with 'food grade solvents'. their price would result in income of about $160 per KG of caapi. this does not seem very realistic because that is almost the usual wholesale price for this product, caapi is expensive. it does not make much sense from the perspective of a retailer to be selling tiny 200mg retail increments only to result in a net yield of the typical wholesale price per KG! It takes alot of time to process the biomass and it would seem they are hardly being paid for their work, or rather, giving their product away. Maybe not their product, but at least the energy that it took to create it.
I am not a profit orientated person but to me it all boils down to energy exchange. the money is the mechanism for energy exchange that is culturally accepted at this time, so be it. but if i spend a bunch of hours working on a project to extract from the caapi, you can be sure i will sell the extract for more than i would sell the caapi!
there are advantages to extracted caapi. it is fun to boil down a solution of biomass but you never know what your results will be. also, when comparing one extract to another and being so sure that one is more valuable or more expensive or less... here are some factors to consider.
this comparison of relative price cannot be accurate unless the same plants are used. caapi potency is extremely variable depending on many factors including the age/diameter of the vine, the type of the vine, how it was handled- harvest, dried, shelved, etc. My point is this..., A batch of "30X" from one vine will be completely different from a batch of "30X" from another vine. And thus, a batch of 30X from one vine cannot be compared to a batch of 200X from a completely different vine, which may even be from a different part of the world. So how can you compare a price and associate a relative value? the wholesale price of caapi also varies greatly depending on the age and quality and also the type of the vine.
if you want to compare one extract to another outside of controlled circumstance, meaning- extractions from the exact same vine, there is only *one* way.... I think you all know what that is .... bioassay!
Personally when seeking a shamanic experience I think it is sometimes preferable to go the 'crude' route. But not always. Bioassay of the ethanolic caapi extract compared to the aqueous extract from the exact same vine proved to yield quite a different experience. actually it is the preference of SWIM to consume the extract over the tea because the experience is slightly 'lighter' and also the dosage can be perfectly titrated. herein lies the most valuable use of such an extract- exact dosage titration once the potency of the material is understood.
Also, the extract can be consumed sublingualy which lends to a slightly different experience, and results are noticed quicker.
However, it is very enjoyable and definately part of the ritual and cultural phenomenon to just make the brew oneself.
Peace & Light
I agree... "Salting out" harmala alkaloids appears to be very easy indeed, but with caapi the results are quite different. this process doesn't work and only salts out one of the alkaloids. forgot which. so the remainder is still in the solution.... it is rather difficult to obtain pure freebase caapi alkaloids without the use of petroleum solvents. this of course would be undesirable due to residues and inhibited mao's. i checked out the caapi copy at flowing visions site to learn a bit more about it. they claim a proprietary procedure which uses only water for a solvent, and they are somehow able to obtain 'pure' alkaloids with trace amounts of solid product residues from 'food grade materials'. i have thought and thought but cannot conclude a possibility for freebasing caapi alkaloids without the use of any nonpolar solvents. anybody have any thoughts on this?
also their price seems a little bit too good to be true. maybe not, but it is alot of work processing large amounts of biomass. even with 'food grade solvents'. their price would result in income of about $160 per KG of caapi. this does not seem very realistic because that is almost the usual wholesale price for this product, caapi is expensive. it does not make much sense from the perspective of a retailer to be selling tiny 200mg retail increments only to result in a net yield of the typical wholesale price per KG! It takes alot of time to process the biomass and it would seem they are hardly being paid for their work, or rather, giving their product away. Maybe not their product, but at least the energy that it took to create it.
I am not a profit orientated person but to me it all boils down to energy exchange. the money is the mechanism for energy exchange that is culturally accepted at this time, so be it. but if i spend a bunch of hours working on a project to extract from the caapi, you can be sure i will sell the extract for more than i would sell the caapi!
there are advantages to extracted caapi. it is fun to boil down a solution of biomass but you never know what your results will be. also, when comparing one extract to another and being so sure that one is more valuable or more expensive or less... here are some factors to consider.
this comparison of relative price cannot be accurate unless the same plants are used. caapi potency is extremely variable depending on many factors including the age/diameter of the vine, the type of the vine, how it was handled- harvest, dried, shelved, etc. My point is this..., A batch of "30X" from one vine will be completely different from a batch of "30X" from another vine. And thus, a batch of 30X from one vine cannot be compared to a batch of 200X from a completely different vine, which may even be from a different part of the world. So how can you compare a price and associate a relative value? the wholesale price of caapi also varies greatly depending on the age and quality and also the type of the vine.
if you want to compare one extract to another outside of controlled circumstance, meaning- extractions from the exact same vine, there is only *one* way.... I think you all know what that is .... bioassay!
Personally when seeking a shamanic experience I think it is sometimes preferable to go the 'crude' route. But not always. Bioassay of the ethanolic caapi extract compared to the aqueous extract from the exact same vine proved to yield quite a different experience. actually it is the preference of SWIM to consume the extract over the tea because the experience is slightly 'lighter' and also the dosage can be perfectly titrated. herein lies the most valuable use of such an extract- exact dosage titration once the potency of the material is understood.
Also, the extract can be consumed sublingualy which lends to a slightly different experience, and results are noticed quicker.
However, it is very enjoyable and definately part of the ritual and cultural phenomenon to just make the brew oneself.
Peace & Light
soulman
Rising Star
Question for 69ron,
At ceremonies that use mimosa and rue i have struggled to "take off" and so began supplimenting the rue with 150-200mg of thh.
This was unpleasant, i had mind fog and i didnt know how i got there etc, quite a mind fuck.
What do you suppose was the cause of this?
At ceremonies that use mimosa and rue i have struggled to "take off" and so began supplimenting the rue with 150-200mg of thh.
This was unpleasant, i had mind fog and i didnt know how i got there etc, quite a mind fuck.
What do you suppose was the cause of this?
lightwill said:yes fun.
i have thought and thought but cannot conclude a possibility for freebasing caapi alkaloids without the use of any nonpolar solvents. anybody have any thoughts on this?
also their price seems a little bit too good to be true. maybe not, but it is alot of work processing large amounts of biomass. even with 'food grade solvents'. their price would result in income of about $160 per KG of caapi. this does not seem very realistic because that is almost the usual wholesale price for this product, caapi is expensive. it does not make much sense from the perspective of a retailer to be selling tiny 200mg retail increments only to result in a net yield of the typical wholesale price per KG! It takes alot of time to process the biomass and it would seem they are hardly being paid for their work, or rather, giving their product away. Maybe not their product, but at least the energy that it took to create it.
I am not a profit orientated person but to me it all boils down to energy exchange. the money is the mechanism for energy exchange that is culturally accepted at this time, so be it. but if i spend a bunch of hours working on a project to extract from the caapi, you can be sure i will sell the extract for more than i would sell the caapi!
there are advantages to extracted caapi. it is fun to boil down a solution of biomass but you never know what your results will be. also, when comparing one extract to another and being so sure that one is more valuable or more expensive or less... here are some factors to consider.
this comparison of relative price cannot be accurate unless the same plants are used. caapi potency is extremely variable depending on many factors including the age/diameter of the vine, the type of the vine, how it was handled- harvest, dried, shelved, etc. My point is this..., A batch of "30X" from one vine will be completely different from a batch of "30X" from another vine. And thus, a batch of 30X from one vine cannot be compared to a batch of 200X from a completely different vine, which may even be from a different part of the world. So how can you compare a price and associate a relative value? the wholesale price of caapi also varies greatly depending on the age and quality and also the type of the vine.
if you want to compare one extract to another outside of controlled circumstance, meaning- extractions from the exact same vine, there is only *one* way.... I think you all know what that is .... bioassay!
Personally when seeking a shamanic experience I think it is sometimes preferable to go the 'crude' route. But not always. Bioassay of the ethanolic caapi extract compared to the aqueous extract from the exact same vine proved to yield quite a different experience. actually it is the preference of SWIM to consume the extract over the tea because the experience is slightly 'lighter' and also the dosage can be perfectly titrated. herein lies the most valuable use of such an extract- exact dosage titration once the potency of the material is understood.
Also, the extract can be consumed sublingualy which lends to a slightly different experience, and results are noticed quicker.
However, it is very enjoyable and definately part of the ritual and cultural phenomenon to just make the brew oneself.
Peace & Light
just to correct you.. its easy to extract harmalas with food-safe materials.. I have done it and all one needs is water, vinegar and sodium carbonate (which can be made from sodium bicarbonate).. Its just making a tea, adding the base, filtering and thats it.. Of course the first run will be crude, but redissolve, refilter, reprecipitate a few times and you got the full range of clean alkaloids easily. Indeed one shouldnt salt out because, at least I've heard so but still havent had the opportunity to check, THH doesnt preciptate as a salt in salt-saturated solution (but it does as a base in high pH solution so its no prob)
and 160 bucks for 1kg of caapi may be near wholesale price in some places but if they have good contact in south america they can def get it significantly cheaper
69ron
Rising Star
soulman said:
The harmaline in the rue potentiated by the THH most likely caused this. People don't usually take THH with harmaline, it's usually THH with harmine as in the case of caapi.
THH is better on its own or with harmine. Harmaline causes a huge amount of mind fuck. THH causes the least amount. Harmine is in between the two. Keep in mind that they each potentiate each other. So harmaline will cause MORE mind fuck if combined with THH or harmine. If you remove the harmaline, you'll remove a lot of the mind fuck.
69ron
Rising Star
Personally, SWIM prefers straight THH over any other harmala alkaloid or harmala combination. SWIM finds that harmine introduces some mind fuck, harmaline introduces a ton of mind fuck, and SWIM would rather not experience that. You say that THH was “more clinical and didnt have tht nurturing feeling!!”, well that’s why SWIM likes it. It gives you more control over the experience. DMT with just THH is more LSD-like. It’s quite unlike ayahuasca. SWIM loves the combination.
I think a lot of people actually like mind fuck. Keep in mind that SWIM does NOT drink and he doesn’t smoke marijuana either. He’s doesn’t like any drugs that cause mind fuck. So for SWIM, THH is a godsend.
I think a lot of people actually like mind fuck. Keep in mind that SWIM does NOT drink and he doesn’t smoke marijuana either. He’s doesn’t like any drugs that cause mind fuck. So for SWIM, THH is a godsend.
Ron,
I know you've stated that 20mg is a good dose of oral DMT for yourself, but have you experimented higher since using THH only? I'm curious to know if the lack of mental fogging will allow better integration with a more intense experience.
I know you've stated that 20mg is a good dose of oral DMT for yourself, but have you experimented higher since using THH only? I'm curious to know if the lack of mental fogging will allow better integration with a more intense experience.