Black Caapi

[DeltaSpice]

Just looking for peoples thoughts on Black Caapi Banisteriopsis Vine...

Some years ago i had some black vine called "Thunder" . It was rite up their.. Very potent but nice at the same time..
I've since tried black vines that are potent but negative. Smoking just vine alks left me feeling rotten and boosted with DMT makes for a horrific experience..

Now i have some more black vine. This stuff too is very negative and i've yet to boost it with spice ..
Do you guys get negative thoughts feelings visions with Black Cappi.(Changa)

Thank you.

 

[Ferrum]

I have a thunder vine, caapi . I've never drank it . I've ate its leaves . No negative effects .

Black caapi I've never heard as Thunder caapi . Meaning I've never heard them one in the same .

I've heard these as black caapi . A black caapi cultivar and muricata called black aya and red aya . Black because of its vine color and an Alicia type also called black caapi . Which did nothing when I drank it at around 100 grams .

Black caapi is supposed to be witches caapi I'd heard . Brujo or bruja caapi and used for sending malicious darts at people .
But don't quote me on being any expert on that .

If I were you I'd try yellow cello caapi or white caapi . Hope this helped .

 

[Sabnock1990]

Have you ever tried the Rue? Black Caapi is said to contain Harmaline as well as Harmine and THH, some people don't like Harmaline (whether in Caapi or Rue) because they feel it's darker than other types of Caapi vines. I however, work solely with the Rue seed and extracts, and don't get what all this darkness is about, not saying Rue/Harmaline can't be strong/potent and uncomfortable at times, but it's always been about the Light and spiritual/mystical/magical for me personally, certainly nothing malicious or evil or negative or wicked.

 

[Ferrum]

Rue is good too. Good idea

 

[mooai]

I am very interested in black caapi also as I like rue a lot, and black caapi like rue is speculated to be higher in harmaline. Anyone have any comparisons between black caapi and rue? Or even just black caapi vs other caapis? Just more potent or does it always have a much different signature? I've heard black isn't that much different from other colors from what people say on here I think but not sure. Maybe different sub strains too. And are you sure it's explicitly "negative/evil"? Or "dark" and perceived as negative? Harshness/darkness is different from negativity. A spider eating its mate is maybe dark, deadly, but not evil I wouldn't say by any means, it's nature and it's beautifully terrifying, some male spiders even have the instinct to throw themselves on the females fangs to nourish her and their child, satisfied knowing his purpose is served and he has won, I don't know if I would even say that's negative.

Though ShamensStamen I'm surprised you don't find rue at all dark. What doses do you take and always with a light plant? And do you only take the manskes? Whole seeds or simple water extracts are the darkest to me. Manske loses a lot of it. For me caapi makes me think things like mother earth, nature, healing, love, colorful, humanity, teaching (in a moreso familial or friendly way). Rue makes me feel things like mysticism, darkness, secret, ritualistic, witches, divinity, alien, dark, teaching but in a more disciplining stern way. I am still struggling with this but I personally prefer the dark parts better, but I'm hesitant to throw caapi to the wayside as it feels to me to be in many ways more healing than the rue, or at least have a different approach to healing.

I take rue frequently, at least once every 2-3 days in some form for the last 3+ months, often in high doses of 5g+. The reason I prefer the rue and the dark parts better, is because to me it feels more authentic. I like the 'pain' rue provides more, I think it just fits my personality better. I just can't have those pure love and light blissful trips anymore, nor do I want them. Only when the unspeakable darkness of humanity which I am painfully aware of and try, struggle to reconcile and think of ways I can do some good... Only with that darkness integrated do I have my best experiences. Reconciling that darkness in myself and in humanity is much of the reason I seek psychedelic experiences nowadays. The way it can explain to me and show me, artistically, visually, how our pain is necessary and for our greater vision, show me the broader picture and align me with a greater more noble purpose.

I remember the day after some very high dose yellow caapi extract (no light plant) I took, I had a prominent afterglow. I was extremely happy feeling, excited, elated, and... I didn't really like it. I just wanted to wait it out, to go back to feeling my normal self. Such outward happiness is not my style, I like to remain steady, calm, focused. For my work especially (computer related, technical) I prefer to remain in an equanimous (in some ways pessimistic, it's helpful to think of what might go wrong in a program before you write it) mindset where I feel I can think the most clearly. Rue can even have a little bit of a physical hangover for me if I take too much but I prefer that to that almost 'uncomfortably' happy feeling I had. Lol. It was a high dose but still, just to illustrate. I take yellow caapi often in smaller doses.

Took a few globs of extract of yellow caapi last night for a 4g-ish rue + ~1g of chali trip and I think it added a tint although the rue kind of overpowers it. Awesome experience, but maybe more spiritually enriching than healing (although it was healing too). Definitely going to be doing that again. I had my rue cold water extract and I just chewed up a couple chali leaves, swallowed one and sucked the juices out of another and spit out remains. The usual rue presences appeared, genies, desert stuff, desert creatures, scorpion, bat, and I wasn't sure how much chali I took cause I had ate that much before but I guess I ate a potent leaf cause wow did I feel it, perfect dose. It was like it lit up that rue space so much and I saw its temptingly beautiful darkness. Much of the what I see in my frequent rue doses without light plants, but more clear and fleshed out with maybe some other stuff too. Gothic vibes, felt like I was on a desert planet full of giant spiders, scorpions, almost everything looked a bit arachnid, insect, even saw what looked like plants of a planet that also looked spider like. Everything in that space and the whole experience had this cohesive gothic deserty vibe. Definitely a lot of scary stuff, but the kind of scary stuff where the initial reaction is to recoil, but then I always want to look back captivated, finding beauty in it. Like a gothic bride. Horror movie-esque in some ways. Gothic architecture type mansions that looked like dracula might live there, spider queens, all doing this grand dance for me... Not trying to scare me, it was just their nature as a spider or bat has its nature in our world, may be scary to us but it's a beautiful part of nature nonetheless. Ton of insight, revitalized direction, solutions to problems in my life, which I enacted immediately contacted some people and set up some meetings with old friends. More beautiful than euphoric for sure. Definitely very harsh feeling at times, like burning hot sun in the desert beating down on you and not quite enough water and cold refreshing foods while you hide away under cover in your sandstone house, but I actually value that harshness a lot, I feel like that mindstate has a lot to teach, I think our world needs some grit in it to solve the problems we have right now at least. If someone can thrive in that place, they could probably easily navigate our world which is much less harsh. Do I want that dark feeling? Hmm, maybe not at first glance in a lot of ways, it's more like I feel I need it. Not negativity for negativity's sake, but as a means to an end, and so I don't really consider it true 'negativity.'

 

[endlessness]

This whole "color/type of caapi vine" issue has been debated a lot in the past.. I'll post some thoughts and then a couple of links of interest.

- There is no universal agreement on what consist a type/variety of vine. Different indigenous groups and churches have different classifications that are not recognized by others, and there may or may not be some overlap (check links below for a couple of examples)

- Officially in botany at least until this moment, there are no recognized varieties, there is only B. caapi.

- Another added complication is that vendors often make things up for marketing reasons. What guarantee is there, that vendor X's "black caapi" classification actually means something? None. In fact, we have seen several times in the past vendors selling a completely different plant that was NOT B. caapi, as "black caapi" (it was Alicia anisopetala in some cases which does not even contain harmalas and has unknown toxicity profile)

- Even if vendor X (or local shaman Y) is honest-to-god providing some plant that was identified by someone they trust as "Black caapi" (or whatever), there is no guarantee that it is the same as Vendor U or vendor Z's honest-to-god "Black caapi", or that even the same vendor or shaman's different batches of that supposed "Black caapi" will always be the same.

- While there is the possibility of some difference in ratio of harmala-related alkaloids and other trace compounds, there is no guarantee such difference will be stable for a supposed variety, nor that such differences necessarily result in different experiences all the time.

- The effects of self-suggestion is often ignored by people. As an example, if you keep reading "black caapi" is for black magic, isn't it way more likely you have negative experiences with it? Or even if not a dark experience, at least you might think its a different experience then "yellow caapi", but potentially both are exactly the same. Or maybe what people consider a qualitative difference in effects is due to a quantitative difference in amounts of same alkaloids. There are many possibilities to investigate, before taking at face value the claims made about the different varieties and effects.

Here are some relevant links:

Caapi Analysis Thread

Discussion on different supposed varieties of caapi

Here's another article on the necessity of developing new classifications for caapi.


a few other related links:

Random blog post in spanish claiming the Harakmbut recognize 22 types of ayahuasca , and that in north Peru they have 4 main types (tigre/rayo/cielo/boa) but that people don't agree with each other on what makes each type (the blog post does not source their statements)

A doctorate thesis in portuguese that says the Huni Kuin recognize 11 types. The names and description of the types are written in page 98

Another doctorate thesis in portuguese on the sustainability of ayahuasca, which includes the classifications of caapi used by Santo Daime, recognizing from 3-11 types (includes pictures and descriptions of types).

 

[Sabnock1990]

Though ShamensStamen I'm surprised you don't find rue at all dark. What doses do you take and always with a light plant? And do you only take the manskes? Whole seeds or simple water extracts are the darkest to me. Manske loses a lot of it. For me caapi makes me think things like mother earth, nature, healing, love, colorful, humanity, teaching (in a moreso familial or friendly way). Rue makes me feel things like mysticism, darkness, secret, ritualistic, witches, divinity, alien, dark, teaching but in a more disciplining stern way. I am still struggling with this but I personally prefer the dark parts better, but I'm hesitant to throw caapi to the wayside as it feels to me to be in many ways more healing than the rue, or at least have a different approach to healing.

I take rue frequently, at least once every 2-3 days in some form for the last 3+ months, often in high doses of 5g+. The reason I prefer the rue and the dark parts better, is because to me it feels more authentic. I like the 'pain' rue provides more, I think it just fits my personality better. I just can't have those pure love and light blissful trips anymore, nor do I want them. Only when the unspeakable darkness of humanity which I am painfully aware of and try, struggle to reconcile and think of ways I can do some good... Only with that darkness integrated do I have my best experiences. Reconciling that darkness in myself and in humanity is much of the reason I seek psychedelic experiences nowadays. The way it can explain to me and show me, artistically, visually, how our pain is necessary and for our greater vision, show me the broader picture and align me with a greater more noble purpose.

Yeah i don't find the Rue dark, it can be harsh/rough at times, it can be quite stern, in your face, disciplining, like a tough love type thing, it can be quite strong, sometimes uncomfortable, a friend of mine once said it made him feel like he had been poisoned lol, but for the most part it's been a very reliable and honest and authentic and caring and teaching plant.

I almost exclusively work with the actual seed, i don't make teas, i encapsulate the seed powder (though i've taken a fancy to roasting the whole seeds prior to grinding them into a powder), i've also used full spectrum freebased Rue extract, as well as Manske'd freebased purified Harmala extract, if i go the extract route i much prefer the full spectrum extract, the purified Harmala extract just feels too isolated/clean for my liking, i much prefer to have more of the plant feel/personality in the mix.

As far as dosages go, i've taken all sorts of dosages, usually i never go above 4.5 grams of Rue but i take it regularly (a lot of times daily for months on end) so the reverse tolerance builds up and the Harmala content gets stronger and stronger negating the need to raise the dosage of actual Rue, also cleans up the side-effect profile with regular consumption. And i took Rue and Mimosa/Acacia daily/near daily for 4 years to begin with, then took full spectrum Rue extract daily for 8 months straight at 180 to 200mgs a day, and then earlier this year in February i took the roasted Rue seed powder capsules daily at 3 grams, then raised it to 4.5 grams, tried 7 grams of the seed powder one night, kept taking the 4.5 grams, and then lowered it to 3.5 grams and kept taking that until earlier this month (a few weeks ago) when i stopped taking the Rue, so took it daily almost 5 whole months.

As far as visuals go, i tend to not get closed eyed visuals, or third eye imagery, even with DMT in the mix, for me it's more about the body, mind and soul/spirit.

But yeah there is something to be said about working through the darkness within oneself and the darkness of Humanity, and integrating it and all. I find Rue to be very disciplining, but highly rewarding. For me, especially with the DMT in the mix, even though there can be some darker/serious elements to it, it's very Light-filled, quite illuminating and enlightening. Definitely brought me to study the esoteric/mystical stuff whereas beforehand i never had a clue such a thing even existed lol. It's definitely a path, process and practice, as well as art, imo, so i choose Rue as my teacher plant, i'm sure Caapi is good too, but Rue has been there with me since day 1 and i've developed a relationship with it, it's my Harmala-containing plant of choice and i really have nothing bad to say about it other than the vomiting can be rough at times and the body load can be rough at times, but overall it's great.

 

[mooai]

I almost exclusively work with the actual seed, i don't make teas, i encapsulate the seed powder (though i've taken a fancy to roasting the whole seeds prior to grinding them into a powder), i've also used full spectrum freebased Rue extract, as well as Manske'd freebased purified Harmala extract, if i go the extract route i much prefer the full spectrum extract, the purified Harmala extract just feels too isolated/clean for my liking, i much prefer to have more of the plant feel/personality in the mix.

Much agreed on the full spectrum having much more personality. The difference between manske & whole seeds is striking. Much more colorful and a sense of a presence.

How long and at what temp did you toast them at? I found putting in oven at 400-450F for about an hour (or maybe 2 I didn't time it accurately) to destroy many of the actives. I think it destroyed almost everything because upon a manske I got almost no product. The stuff I got was almost tasteless. And the seeds did not have the same bitter gagging harmaline taste. I think the oils cause nausea/darkness in the experience too because the much lighter colored cold water extracts I do produce almost no nausea with much more psychedelia. I think the oils might get destroyed too maybe upon my long toast cause they didn't make me at all nauseous upon eating a lot. But you may be toasting shorter. Ever do a manske on your toasted seeds and compare vs manske on untoasted to see if you're losing any?

 

[Sabnock1990]

I haven't done an extract on the roasted seeds, though that is something i will try next time i go for making extract. I roast/toast them in the oven at about 350 degrees for about 20 minutes, sometimes a little longer, i try to use a big pan and spread out the seeds so they're not packed on top of each other because then they don't roast/toast as well, and if they're in there too long they can burn and probably do get reduced in terms of potency, but if you roast/toast them properly, they don't seem to lose any potency that i've noticed. I too do think the oils contributes to increased discomfort and such, because when i roast/toast the seeds i can tell they are drier and don't seem to contain the oils, and it's a much cleaner feeling experience for sure.

 

[DeltaSpice]

My personal experiences are: (Changa related)
I started off using Rue, for some years because it was easily obtainable and i had many amazing experiences vision that will stay with me in memory..

For some reason i decided to try yellow vine and i was confident that there would be no difference to rue changa. What a shock to be confronted with Aya and have her look into me to see who i was.

That was the death of Rue for me and i now smoke vine alks most days dmt free.

Producing the tea shows the colour type to a good extent. I have tried most types available and quantity of alks is what i look for . Yellow & Red being the best bet.

I was too hasty at labeling my current batch of black vine as negative , it is slightly negative but at least ,say 5 times more potent than the other colours. One joint, sprinkled on mullein and bare in mind that you cannot use too much or the smoke cannot pass through the alks/powder in the joint and im pretty much stoned and carpet moves slightly etc..

I also feel that having vine(her) inside me can only be beneficial to my being..

It could well be that one is male and the other female...
Cheers

 

[Ferrum]

Have you ever tried the Rue? Black Caapi is said to contain Harmaline as well as Harmine and THH, .

These compounds are in almost all caapi types in various amounts. Not just in one type in particular

 

[Sabnock1990]

Have you ever tried the Rue? Black Caapi is said to contain Harmaline as well as Harmine and THH, .

These compounds are in almost all caapi types in various amounts. Not just in one type in particular

My understanding is that Harmaline concentration in Caapi vine and resulting brews tends to be quite low, as in trace amounts or otherwise very low amounts, particularly compared to Harmine and THH. Black Caapi is said to have much higher concentrations of Harmaline, last i checked. Also add in the fact that most people seem to find Rue to be a lot rougher, which i agree it is, but i love it anyways, Caapi is much gentler compared to Rue, and definitely lacks Harmaline ime, a lot of people seem to prefer Caapi because of this reason.

 

[Ferrum]

Plant % beta-Carbolines Ratio (syrian rue=1)
Syrian Rue 2.0 - 4.0% 1
Banisteriopsis caapi 0.1% 20
Passion flower 0.05 - 0.1% 40

harmaline is the major intoxication beta carboline in caapis .......as far as I know ........check out tikals assays on harmine , Harman and harmaline . If harmaline was not present in caapis in significant amounts then some of the resulting intoxication would not be felt i would imagine , I'm not 100 % . in vine only brews which I drink a lot of , I've always assumed it as due to harmaline. There is decent amounts of harmaline in caapi as far as I'm aware .


So approx 3-6 grams of rue to 60-180 grams of caapi .

Yes the beta -carbolines are lower in caapi compared to rue.....however .....I've never found a SUPER caapi online or grow that was just crazy strong compared to normal caapi s

I've been growing and collecting types of caapi and other family vines for almost 20 years and over the years the marketing for colored caapi claiming to be sooooooo much stronger has been hype if you want my opinion . black caapi? What even is that ?

What cultivar of caapi is Black caapi ? No one knows .....if you're referring to Alicia spp. Then it's pretty much devoid of all beta carbs . It's called black caapi ? Also muricata is called black . Also there is banisteriopsi caapi cultivar black.....which is God knows what marketed as black caapi.....which black ayahuasca ?

Yellows can be weak , but I've found the leaves of caapi to be stronger than the vine sometimes .....sometimes I just make leaf brews .

So what I'm saying is that black caapi is a bit of a marketing thing where people are saying yes buy our black caapi ....it's super strong ....buy our lsd caapi it's the strongest .....no buy our hyperdrive sliced reality caapi it's the best ......black caapi .....who knows what it is . Most caapis are going to be fairly similar in compound arrays

If you want potency then drink rue , caapi s all have a good mix and yes some are devoid of particular compounds but you aren't going to know unless that the company has tested them and is constantly harvesting them from the same clone at the same conditions at the same place at the same time of year .

Caapi is pretty good . Yellow is good , muricata is stronger in my experience and there is thunder which I have but haven't tested or drank yet . It is presumed stronger but I don't know yet . Most all my caapis are active around plus 20 grams . As far as how much more black caapis harmaline concentration is.......who knows .....no one can clearly define what black caapi is or what cultivar it is as far as I know and like I said I've been collecting and cloning these vines for about 20 years .....i

If you do find a crazy strong living caapi vine .....called black ....called purple ....called John Doe or whatever ....pm me I'd love a cutting :d

Thank endlessness for the links .....those are the most Imformative on the caapi debate

 

[Sabnock1990]

You can still get intoxication with Harmine, it's just cleaner compared to Harmaline. According to the Caapi analysis thread i've seen, whatever Black Caapi it is they tested had higher amounts of Harmaline, whereas other Caapi varieties usually had little to no Harmaline, but high amounts of Harmine and good amounts of THH. I've taken pure Harmine on it's own, and i've drank Tigre Caapi vine a few times, and while they were much cleaner compared to Rue, they were still effective and i could definitely feel the intoxicating effect of higher dosages of Harmine content. Harmine is usually cleaner/clearer feeling and not as sedating or rough compared to Harmaline. I thought it was common knowledge that Caapi generally lacked Harmaline content, i used to say how Caapi contained both Harmine and Harmaline with the addition of THH whereas Rue is only Harmine and Harmaline minus the THH, and everyone kept correcting me saying that Caapi usually doesn't contain much Harmaline, and according to the analysis that is correct.

I'm pretty sure if one took 4 to 6 grams of Rue, it would be way more intoxicating than 180 grams of Caapi, Harmaline packs a hell of a punch that Harmine doesn't seem to, even though Harmine can be intoxicating on it's own, Harmaline has a few other properties that makes it different from Harmine.

 

[Ferrum]

Shulgin found little to no visual effects from harmine .....I believe ....with tests up to 400mg ...

With a whole lot of quality reports of it being a belligerent effecting compound .I'll see if I can post the link


Plus those test in the thread were on those tested .....not countless others for other research groups .....the mckennas and others....of course ....the nexus has some damn good testing :thumb_up:


Ok here is his personal assay on harmine .....which he states visuals might have occurred at around 900mg!!!!!!!!!! WOW, that's pretty high bar to have MIGHT be visual .

He also states what a nasty compound it is subjectively .

Erowid Online Books : "TIHKAL" - #14 HARMINE

Entry #14 HARMINE from TiHKAL by Alexander & Ann Shulgin.

www.erowid.org

Verses visuals at around 100mg here under harmaline


Erowid Online Books : "TIHKAL" - #13 HARMALINE

On his accounts harmaline is more visual at around 150mg verses harmine


If banisteriopsis caapi .....

didn't contain harmaline .......where are the visuals in VINE ONLY brews coming from ? I'm betting harmaline

But in the case of maoi s a harmine compound seems well indeed the inhibitor for nndmt breakdown , with his quote here on harmine

"As with harmaline, a number of drug combinations have been studied using harmine as the potential deaminase inhibitor. This is, after all, much closer to the basic structure of ayahuasca, where the plant Banisteriopsis caapi is the native inhibitory component, and it contains much more harmine than harmaline. In measured experiments, the use of harmine in the 140 to 190 milligram range, administered with 35 to 40 milligrams DMT, produced unmistakable effects lasting from one to three hours. Trials with smaller amounts, with 120 to 140 milligrams of harmine and 30 milligrams of DMT produced no signs of central activity at all. Harmine apparently is an effective, although modest, promoter of oral activity of DMT. At least this occurs at levels where it itself is substantially without action, so here it may truly be a facilitator rather than a participant."


In a minute I'll post a link done by the meckennas on the amounts of harmaline they found in various banisteriopsis caapis from different South American countries as far back as the 70s.


"When Holmstedt worked them up some 30 years ago, he reported that the alkaloid content was 0.4%. This was virtually identical to a newly collected, botanically verified specimen of Banisteriopsis caapi which he analyzed at the same time and found to contain 0.5% alkaloids. The latter material contained, as described by many authors, the main alkaloids harmine, harmaline and tetrahydroharmine. By contrast, the alkaloid content of the Spruce material consisted exclusively of harmine. It is open to question whether the samples collected by Spruce in 1853 originally contained only harmine or, perhaps more likely, that harmaline and tetrahydroharmine have with time been transformed into the chemically more stable aromatic b-carboline harmine."


shulgins quote on harmaline in banisteriopsis


I'm still looking for the erowid paper on harmaline in caapi and I'll post it shortly as I've seen it and know it's there

" harmaline at levels of 0.05 to 0.38% [averaging 0.19%] (but said to be absent from some other samples) "

That was from the meckennas.

Attached below is the link to the erowid page discussing harman , harmine , harmine and the in banisteriopisi caapi



Ok here it is by trout with harmaline levels existing.

Erowid Online Books : "Ayahuasca: alkaloids, plants, and analogs" by Keeper of the Trout.


The most interesting thing I find about the article is that percentage of alkaloids are higher in the leaves on average . Which is why I tend to harvest more leaf than vine and can vouch personally for the leaf brews being effective just more tannic
Seemingly


So meckenna 1984 states harmaline in caapi samples representing 9-20 percent of total alkaloids in samples

 

[Sabnock1990]

If Harmaline is indeed found in active levels in Caapi that would be awesome. I'm very familiar with the signature effects of Harmaline and so far i haven't felt any in the Caapi i've tried, both vine and leaf tea, the vine was Tigre variety and the leaf was Cielo variety. Aside from the few times i've had Caapi, i've only tried pure THH a few times but that was combined with Rue, but it makes me curious if THH has any visual effects, or if THH and Harmine combined would have visual effects. Idk about vine only brews, but it's been my experience that while i get some open eyed visual effects from Rue alone, it's relatively mild compared to with DMT in the mix, even at heavy dosages of Rue or Rue/Harmala extract, on it's own i don't get too much in the way of visuals, some tracers and some mild visual effects but nothing like i get with DMT in the mix, with the addition of DMT one can take a moderate dosage of Rue/Harmalas and the DMT brings out some of the Rue/Harmalas effects including visuals, and the purgative effects, whereas with Rue/Harmalas alone without DMT a higher dosage is needed to bring out those effects, so with Caapi and DMT the DMT could be bringing out the Harmine's or Harmine/THH's effects where one wouldn't get those effects without DMT unless dosing higher.

Though it is worth keeping in mind that if some Caapi does contain a decent amount of Harmaline, the synergy between it and the Harmine and THH could boost the overall effects even if Harmaline's dosage is relatively low like maybe 50 to 100mgs, i would think.

 

[Ferrum]

i don't get too much in the way of visuals, some tracers and some mild visual effects but nothing like i get with DMT in the mix, with the addition of DMT one can take a moderate dosage of Rue/Harmalas and the DMT brings out some of the Rue/Harmalas effects including visuals, and the purgative effects, whereas with Rue/Harmalas alone without DMT a higher dosage is needed to bring out those effects, so with Caapi and DMT the DMT could be bringing out the Harmine's or Harmine/THH's effects where one wouldn't get those effects without DMT unless dosing higher. .

I don't think this is the case . I get lots of visuals from rue and caapi by themselves when drunk separately without nndmt additions . And since 2-7 percent of Syrian rue seeds contain alkaloids and a percentage of that is harmaline I'd wager harmaline is responsible for the visual side and Harmine is more of a Maoi Addition .

I've had full blown visions in rue and caapi only brews typically over 7 grams with rue but as low as 4 grams of Syrian rue Seeds and all in grayscale and typically fast set "movies" of native women , people , dancing , faces , jungles etc.

The same I get with caapi only brews....again in grayscale .

I doubt that dmt is bringing out harmine s effects as much as harmine is keeping nndmt from being destroyed by internal enzymatic processes and that is producing the visual s when the two are together simply because we all know here how visual nndmt is ...I'd say about most here would contest to that .

Again since harmaline has been assayed as a extremely visual compound and it exists in large quantities in rue and can be present in caapi in amounts enough to produce effects .....I'd wager harmaline is the visual culprit and harmine is a backseat aid in the effects of visions and more of an aid to Maoi support .

. I'm Basing this on shulgins assays and others of it by itself , and those results of harmaline being highly visual, and visual at lower amounts , than that of harmine alone .

 

[Sabnock1990]

Interesting. Yeah i mean i definitely get some visual activity from Rue/Harmalas, but i take it so regularly that the reverse tolerance builds up and things clean up a good bit so the visuals from Rue/Harmalas are more noticeable when i take it only every now and then. Harmaline could well be the visual aspect, idk, i don't get much in the way of visuals from Psychedelics in general, even oral DMT or smoked Changa, i tend to get more in the way of closed and open eyed visuals from Psilocin personally, which is weird considering DMT is supposedly a very visual compound.

Usually i don't go over 4.5 grams of Rue, because i just keep taking the same dosage and with the reverse tolerance the Harmala content gets stronger and stronger each time. One time recently i took 7 grams of roasted Rue seed powder encapsulated after having taken the Rue daily for a few months at 3.5 to 4.5 grams, and even with the 7 grams, probably because of the reverse tolerance, things were strongggggg, but still no visuals.

"doubt that dmt is bringing out harmine s effects as much as harmine is keeping nndmt from being destroyed by internal enzymatic processes and that is producing the visual s when the two are together simply because we all know here how visual nndmt is ...I'd say about most here would contest to that."

Ime, it works both ways, the DMT brings out more of the effects of the Harmalas, and the Harmalas bring out more of the effects of the DMT. I've tried Moclobemide with oral DMT quite a few times, taken up to 600mgs for a single dose followed 30 minutes to an hour later, usually dose the DMT an hour afterwards when MAO-A inhibition seems to be at it's maximum, same for Harmalas for me, and when using Moclobemide the DMT definitely gets orally activated, and some interesting effects of DMT are present that i don't get from DMT when combined with Harmalas because the Harmalas flavor the DMT experience due to it's other characteristics/effects aside from MAO-A inhibition, and so it was pretty much oral DMT (Mimosa, Acacia) and MAO-A inhibition, totally lacked the other effects that i associate with the Harmala side of things.

When using Harmalas though, if i take say 3 to 4.5 grams of Rue with DMT in the mix, the DMT brings out aspects of the Harmalas that i don't get with the equivalent dosage of Rue by itself, and based on my experience using Moclobemide with oral DMT, there are some effects of DMT that the Harmalas bring out but Moclobemide doesn't, but some effects of DMT using Moclobemide that gets brought out without the Harmala influence. So the two combined really brings out the magic in each other. Tobacco is another plant that seems to bring out some of the Harmalas effects that i don't get without the Tobacco in the mix. Many other plants and compounds have interesting synergy with the Harmalas and DMT as well.