• Members of the previous forum can retrieve their temporary password here, (login and check your PM).

book of wisdom

Migrated topic.
Kaos.underwave I beleive there are many incorrect states. As an example take the human body, it is an amazingly intricate system with billions of finely balanced and orchestrated chemical, electrical and biological states and if any one of these enters into an 'incorrect state' you get various negative outcomes such as cancers, various diseases and other health problems. This is talking on a microcosmic view of a single human body but as you can see, incorrect states do exist. Mind and matter are intrinsically linked and are actually the same thing so the mind can also enter into 'incorrect states' too which inturn will effect physical reality to go bad hence the enviromental and other human problems we face today. Particle, I do agree with you that the core of reality is love too however I think that this term has been misunderstood. Going back to my human body example, there are actually many rules, regualtions and many other intricate things inside your body that keep you alive. If any of these rules, regualtions or mechanisms were to be changed or damaged even slightly it would be detrimental to you. Henceforth the same example can be said of the larger universe, even though at the core the universe is love, it still has many benevolent rules, regulations and complex systems and mechanisms to make it run correctly. So as you can see, right and wrong, incorrect and correct states do exist and spiritual reality can be summed up as 'love' but it is actually a vastly complex place that will be probably forever a mystery.
 
.. ummm, an urge to comment overcomes me ... I think of the word "Homeostasis" .. that's what nature strives for, in the middle of apparent chaos, comes perfect creation and life. She doesn't call anything 'incorrect' ... she just surfs in between all the chaos, balancing perfection, achieveing homeostasis while creating and loving EACH one of her selves, however bent or mutant each version may be... Dogma and everybody's 'isms' are like blinders, filters and reductions of the true reality they try to point us at ... don't think that you ever escape that filter when using this conscious thought and language. But since we all thrive on langauge while awake, fodder for the ego, all the ignorance in the world thrives too ... Language is ego-spray-paint, or 'ego-wipes', that we go around tagging each other with, or 'wiping' each other down with, missing the reality beyond the dualisms... Blackglo - after reading your logic, I just need to say remember we're all caught up in a dualistic cage of words and 'isms' - don't you see it in every thought you expressed...? Duality is in every sensory input and every thought and word we have.! No one escapes it, but so many people get so far-drawn in by it, they forget what it's done to us. So I offer the (dualistically bound!)) word 'Homeostasis' to counter your dualistic logic of there being an 'incorrect' vs correct state - technically nature never achieves a perfectly balanced state, she is always moving towards and balancing around 'perfect', trying to achieve homeostatsis.... Nature is never frozen in a corrrect 'stasis' ... she's always a little imperfect, trying a new 'move'. So from what's happened to me, I say that once the duality of the language used in consciousness and found in ANY dogma is transcended, you won't have any 'incorrect' states anymore... You have something else that is proud of everything, every molecule and creature. After that one ha sto be much more accepting and immediately loving of every poor incarnated, dulaistically and sensorily bound creature, big and small ... There are no 'chosen ones' ... even in the Darwinian sense of the 'fittest' and most fecund organisms, every variation is 'allowed' and even 'needed'. .. but now I'm blathering ... .. . (and I want pants like those sumo-samurai stripes and polka dot pantaloons, for the next time i trip... ! ) The word "Homeostasis" is what nature does well. It all fits together, perfectly - life needs death, male needs female, and vice versa. Every permuaion and recombination is allowed to give it a whirl, mastering creation with each attempt in an ever-changing environment.
 
I agree to blackclo in most ways here. I would never say homosexuality is wrong but I could say it's an incorrect state. But I don't really care. We all have some incorrect states in our personality I think. No one is perfect. But what's the difference between how a man loves his wife or how a man loves his children? Well how I see it he does have sexual desire for his wife, or at least he used to do hopefully but if he had a sexual desire for his children wouldn't you say that was in some way incorrect? Well at least I think that is probably the most incorrect state there is. And for one sex to have sexual desires for the same sex is also incorrect programming how I see it. I'm not saying it's wrong or evil. Just the outcome is not what it is supposed to be. In nature that should be a new individual. That's the purpose of sexual desire!
 
Your point is accurate of course, however it might be a built in defense mechanism of biology to protect itself from overpopulation and part of the population goes gay as a result. Looking at the state of this world however this thesis can be dismissed upfront I guess. I recently had the epiphany that this whole process of extended and growing self awarness that we are in the midst of (with the ego as necessary vehicle) must not necessarily contine on the basis of random outcome in the form of individual lives. Do we really need 6 billion people equipped with high capacity brains or could ONE sound working brain do the job instead? We guys on this forum here are also nothing but search dogs looking for the truth. Since we all go back to one origin why split the element so many times (meaning 6 B and growing). This refers to the saying 'nobody is perfect'. Here is where the mess starts. Introduce ONE perfect brain and everyting is changed. My theory is that a perfect brain does not have to start out perfect (which would be a nuisence and as stupid as the old catholic myth that their 'pure' was born from a virgin - since fucking is beyond preachers reach officially). Then again, if you have to run a monestary for instance the only way to get a male crowd in a state of 'non pussy orientation' is to eliminate the potential reflex, meaning don't have women on board. I am sure the same was the case on all the long distance ships centuries ago. There must be some 'perfect brains' in operation as we speak somewhere around the globe. It is ridiculous to look back in a dogmatic way at Jesus, Mohammed and Budda while there are perfect brains around RIGHT NOW. (Dogma is the direct outcome of pairing Ego with a spark of spiritual awareness). The ultimate goal is to become one oneself, no need to be exposed to dogma and other ballast. My hunch: Someone will crack the code and break into Time and that will change everything. It might be the meaning of 2012. Terrence McKenna once spoke about this possibility and his Timewave Zero supports the thesis. [img:8409f68fdb]http://www.perfectfit.at/NR/rdonlyr.../PerfectFit_Napf_hund290.jpg[/img:8409f68fdb]
 
havn't posted much here. I realize this is kinda a touchy subject to jump into. So i want to try to be respectful as possible towards other beliefs. But I have, like you guys, often thought about these questions. The strongest point I always find myself coming back to is the loss of reproduction. As humans it is our nature to reproduce, so if we go against this, is it not true that we are also going against nature & our natural ways.
 
gotsdagroove said:
havn't posted much here. I realize this is kinda a touchy subject to jump into. So i want to try to be respectful as possible towards other beliefs. But I have, like you guys, often thought about these questions. The strongest point I always find myself coming back to is the loss of reproduction. As humans it is our nature to reproduce, so if we go against this, is it not true that we are also going against nature & our natural ways.
Click to expand...

No.
 
I just discovered this site. At first I thought it was awesome. Great artwork, great subject. Then I clicked on 'Wisdom'. I scrolled down, and read just one paragragh, including this one sentence:

"Do you think that those who do bad things, like committing heinous crimes, or even those who engage in homosexual acts, want to do things that way and are born to do that?"

This is not wisdom. It is intolerance and arrogance.

I'm straight, by the way, as some of the homophobes on here are perhaps wondering why I care. Postgraduate educated, read up on philosophy and religion.

As to the argument about what is natural and what is unnatural (used to justify why homosexuality is 'wrong')... we are part of nature, so everything we do is natural. Love, hate, science, war, building cities, building atom bombs, building spaceships, hallucinatory visions, rape, murder, incest, paedophilia, bestiality, religious beliefs, cannibalism. It is impossible to separate our actions from the natural world, and whether someone is gay or straight has nothing to do with how 'right' or 'wrong' they are. Theo only thing that is important is that one law is followed: 'An it harm none, do your will'. This decides what is right or wrong. Gay people aren't hurting anyone. Those who are upset by the fact that someone is gay are only hurt by their own intolerance / fundamentalist dogma. As for this bizarre argument that it is 'natural' to procreate... is it 'natural' for the planet to be so overpopulated? How can we stop ourselves all starving to death in an overpopulated world? We need MORE people to STOP procreating- by choice, or as a result of their sexuality. It could be argued that the natural balance is upset, and those who do not procreate are acting to reduce the 'unnaturalness' of the world (in the sense of the coming unsustainability of our numbers). Secondly, in evolution those who do NOT procreate are performing as much of an evolutionary function as those who do... their genes end, while the others' genes live on. We are all part of nature, and going against your nature (when not to do so harms none but yourself) is the most 'unnatural' thing possible, and a waste of life.

To find such a wonderful site such as this, and to read such ignorance labelled as 'wisdom'... it's shameful. Shameful.

I hope one day, you'll learn to be more tolerant. You'll find it will have a beneficial effect on your life.
 
The paradox here, of course, is that I am intolerant of intolerance! 'An it harm none, do your will' only works if people stand up against those who preach against this liberation (from their pulpits, from their parliaments...)
 
Woah there ohayoco, I believe that text was put up by a formative and important, but as far as I'm aware, inactive founder member of the Nexus. I don't believe it represents the opinions of 98% of the membership here.
 
sorry ohayoco...you are obviously troubled about something you perceived...CALM DOWN!! you ask us to be more tolerant..but you cant tolerate one sentence...
 
ohayoco said:
Last thought. The Wisdom section should be scrapped, or the site boycotted...
Click to expand...

Should we all boycott it just because you don't like it? What if I like the wisdom part?

If you don't like it and disagree then just go somewhere else. There's no one forcing you to come here!
 
I agree with DMTripper.

I think that the book of wisdom is a laughing stock, I just go and read some sections when I want a good laugh or a quick mindfuck. Taken seriously, I can write 10 Books of Anti-Wisdom trying to counter-argument the theses of this Book.

But in the end of the day I am not at all bothered with it. Some people like the book and some people don't; some people like dmt and some people don't, and the story goes on with pretty much everything around us.

Endlessness' suggestion to add a disclaimer as a foreword to it (suggested in another topic) would be a much much better and peaceful solution. Prohibitions and censorship never really lead (past tense) to any good.
 
ohayoco wrote:

"As to the argument about what is natural and what is unnatural (used to justify why homosexuality is 'wrong')... we are part of nature, so everything we do is natural. Love, hate, science, war, building cities, building atom bombs, building spaceships, hallucinatory visions, rape, murder, incest, paedophilia, bestiality, religious beliefs, cannibalism"

If you look carefully you will find that incest, murder, paedophilia, bestiality, cannibalism and yes even homosexuality are not the natural and true state of a human being but are the product of a inharmonious and disturbed mental condition.

A person, a baby is born pure and if you look closely you will see that it is in line with the cosmos or the divine Law, it only has love in it, yes children can be naughty but they are pure kind and innocent, very close to the nature of the cosmos or law of harmony. This is the true state of a person underneath societies knowledge and aquired notions about the world.

A person created out of this Cosmic Law is only a spark, a little cell in the begining and through the guidance of such precision and unimaginable complexity a person is created. What is guiding this complexity to the nth degree?

The truth is the world/cosmos has a law and harmony guiding it. Beautiful musical compostions, divine works of art,a flower, The compostion of a human being all follow this Law. Deviating from this law which is currently happening upon this world causes alot of pain and destrucution, wars, pollution, deforestation and many many other bad things.


ohayoco wrote:

"Theo only thing that is important is that one law is followed: 'An it harm none, do your will'

"Do What Thou Wilt An it harm none" is saying do whatever you want. However you may do things under this law and still hurt people in the process. Say a little boy aged 2 became adopted and had two fathers and saw two men kissing every day, even if those men think that they are not hurting anyone they actually are. They are hurting that little boy's views of morality. A person needs a strong moral code to guide him, just as the universe needs a law or harmony to guide it.

Without a divine law there is only chaos. A person is not just a bunch of chaotic atoms bouncing around, it is a highly ochestrated being of such dazzling complexity that it is truly mind boggling. If any of those cells or dna molecules thought "Do what thou will" and decided to do it's own thing a disease infests the body, something akin to cancer etc as it has deviated from it's path.
 
blackclo said:
ohayoco wrote:

"As to the argument about what is natural and what is unnatural (used to justify why homosexuality is 'wrong')... we are part of nature, so everything we do is natural. Love, hate, science, war, building cities, building atom bombs, building spaceships, hallucinatory visions, rape, murder, incest, paedophilia, bestiality, religious beliefs, cannibalism"

If you look carefully you will find that incest, murder, paedophilia, bestiality, cannibalism and yes even homosexuality are not the natural and true state of a human being but are the product of a inharmonious and disturbed mental condition.

A person, a baby is born pure and if you look closely you will see that it is in line with the cosmos or the divine Law, it only has love in it, yes children can be naughty but they are pure kind and innocent, very close to the nature of the cosmos or law of harmony. This is the true state of a person underneath societies knowledge and aquired notions about the world.

A person created out of this Cosmic Law is only a spark, a little cell in the begining and through the guidance of such precision and unimaginable complexity a person is created. What is guiding this complexity to the nth degree?

The truth is the world/cosmos has a law and harmony guiding it. Beautiful musical compostions, divine works of art,a flower, The compostion of a human being all follow this Law. Deviating from this law which is currently happening upon this world causes alot of pain and destrucution, wars, pollution, deforestation and many many other bad things.


ohayoco wrote:

"Theo only thing that is important is that one law is followed: 'An it harm none, do your will'

"Do What Thou Wilt An it harm none" is saying do whatever you want. However you may do things under this law and still hurt people in the process. Say a little boy aged 2 became adopted and had two fathers and saw two men kissing every day, even if those men think that they are not hurting anyone they actually are. They are hurting that little boy's views of morality. A person needs a strong moral code to guide him, just as the universe needs a law or harmony to guide it.

Without a divine law there is only chaos. A person is not just a bunch of chaotic atoms bouncing around, it is a highly ochestrated being of such dazzling complexity that it is truly mind boggling. If any of those cells or dna molecules thought "Do what thou will" and decided to do it's own thing a disease infests the body, something akin to cancer etc as it has deviated from it's path.
Click to expand...

well then how do you explain homosexuality and even prostitution (such as with the bonobos) in the animal kingdom? is nature not ´natural´ either?

and how do you explain whales throwing baby seal up in the air for the fun of it, without simply eating it? and all the suffering from the baby seal?

you say things are not ´natural´ but this is purely your own concept, not a universal essential and objective ´naturality´.

dont idealize nature, it´s not all ´nice and happy´.. There is a lot of suffering and excesses too, but these are human concepts.

when you say things, be careful making sure you express it as your own opinion, because the way you (and the book of wisdom) say it make it seem as if you consider it to be an objective truth. This is where the problem arises, the arrogance from supposed objectivity. If its expressed as a pure opinion, then so be it, whatever, think what you want. But as it is, it only generates a desire of rebutal and anger from those that dont agree.. So what use is it? It´s just ´preaching to the converted´ at most.
 
Infundibulum said:
Off the topic, but endlessness, I see that you really like David Attenborough's documentaries!:d
Click to expand...

I didnt know him, just did a search and sounds very interesting :)

I had heard about some of the documentaries it seems he is behind, and people giving very good reviews, but never checked them out.. maybe now I will, thanks :D
 
In nature it's often seen that some trait that already exists, becomes a carrier in the evolution of a species, for other things. There are many examples of this; Hairs of a tiger, meant for regulating temperature have become a sort of camouflage, feathers of some birdsspecies have become an indication for fittnes, like with peacocks, and there are just so many more.
Sexuality in most highly evolved social species like homonoïds (chimpansees, bonobo's, gorrila's, orangoetangs and humans) has become not only a way for reproduction, but also a force in the social binding of a group. In all these species sexuality plays a key role in mainaining the social structure, wich is vital for the survival of all the individuals, forming the group.
Homosexual activity is a natural and even nescessary part of this, for instance in resolving conflicts or to tighten alliances within the group.
The condemnation of homosexuality has, in my view paradoxically, lead to many homosexuals behaving in exactly the way wich is described by many religions as sinfull. People often behave exactly according to the social stigma detached to them.
When you say that homosexuality is unnatural and that it is an unhealthy, impropper or lesser form of love, or even that homosexual relationships can never be real, loving relationships, then many homosexuals will be raised by this stigma and will come to behave exactly like this.
In my view there is nothing greater or more beautyfull then love in all it's forms and manifestations. If live has a meaning, then to me it is to love, to be loving and to give love to others as much as you can. I would say this is even of much greater value then reproduction, because what value can a human life have, if it would be depleted of any form of love?
Any condemnation of love is wrong and to be intolerant towards intolerance is not a contradiction. To demand tolerance for your own intolerance is, however. Tolerance for intolerance has always lead to the spreading of intolerance and eventually to violence, so if to be tolerant is to apreciate the value of every human life, then the spreading of any form of intolerance is intolerable.
 
Blackclo wrote:

""Do What Thou Wilt An it harm none" is saying do whatever you want. However you may do things under this law and still hurt people in the process. Say a little boy aged 2 became adopted and had two fathers and saw two men kissing every day, even if those men think that they are not hurting anyone they actually are. They are hurting that little boy's views of morality."

(It would've been too confusing to quote the lot)

See, there you go again. Hurting the little boy's view of morality?! What you are saying here is that homosexuality is immoral. It isn't. If you want to believe that it is, then fine, but it's a very controversial view, and expressing it in the 'wisdom' section makes the impression that your views are endorsed by the site... because your views are the only views in the 'wisdom' section. This is a wonderful site, and such authoritarian views seem completely at odds with the libertarian nature of this site.

You are aware, Blackclo, that mainstream society thinks that YOU are immoral for your use of DMT? How does that make you feel? And are you aware that mainstream society is more accepting of homosexuality that your DMT use? I'm astounded that someone who uses psychedelics could still be intolerant, could still not have sympathy for those who are frowned upon by others who they harm in no way.

You misunderstand what "An it harm none, do your will" means. It means do what you like if it doesn't hurt anyone. The little boy in this example is not being hurt! If anything, his view of morality is being challenged at worst... and if he thinks that homosexuality is wrong, then his parents/society have taught him to be intolerant.

Thanks Endlessness. I agree that Blackclo has a rose tinted view of nature. Juvenile male dolphins kidnap and gang rape females for weeks on end. It's even been on primetime nature programs. That's nature. Love, hate, life and death. Any argument based on what is natural is defunct.

That's all from me, I really came here just to talk about DMT and admire the artwork. I really hope the 'wisdom' section will get edited, because it sends out a very bad message and marginalises the approximate 2/3 of people who are tolerant of homosexuality and are offended by statements to the contrary, particularly when apparently endorsed by an organisation they otherwise admire.

(Example source for statistic: http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200507/s1423053.htm)
 
Back
Top Bottom