Bulk Rue: how to handle such a mess (draft)

[mew]

this document is aimed at providing tips and tricks when dealing with rue extractions.
as we all know a few grams to an oz isnt that bad because the amount of time overall isnt as expansive as dealing with a kilo or 5...

1. making crude harmala solutions that will later be used to refine
-cwe vinegar (1 day)
-strain seeds
-freeze seeds (1 day)
-decant cwe, one can use the original vinegar jug and poke a small hole in the side about halfway down, letting the top portion without sediment collect, in a basin of sorts, then another hole below. the idea is to go as far down without having excess particles in the solution. this can only be done after sediment has settled, so it wont be the fastest thing, but may be simplest if you have the time.
-throw the sediment amount (dont bother filtering yet) into a large enough cooking vessel then add your frozen seeds (they should be lysed via water expansion) and add new vinegar for a cook (at your discretion, remove pulp and let the new solution decant)
-repeat the decanting trick
* untested idea *
take your twice extracted unground seeds and add your bass directly, let the bass do the work instead of ridiculous grinding sessions of nastiness


when filtering your solutions start with mesh, then mesh with a cloth, then go to cotton in a funnel, then go to a coffee filter, once it runs easily through a coffee filter a second time, reduce to half the amount and remove the new solids with the same sequence of filtering (you wont need mesh this time)

once you get to the cotton balls if you made a make shift funnel out of a bottle (top of a 2 liter sliced off and stuffed with cotton balls) it may not drain as well as you hoped after a while. either switch out your filter for a new one or use your mouth to make a seal around the rim and slowly blow adding pressure (like an inverse vacuum filter; a pressure filter)

coffee filters just take a while but get the big ones for restraunts and place 1 in a mesh screen/colunder (it works btter than a funnel because of the air flow) replace the coffe filter when the draining becomes slow by pouring the unfiltered amount back into your unfiltered vessel and replace the filter and try again, its arduous but its quicker than just waiting



all ideas welcome im in the middle of a kilo project and these have helped a bunch

 

[MelCat]

I had to read it a couple of times but I can see how doing a cwe first might help reduce the amount of cook time. Enoon's cold water caapi tek seemed to prove that extended cold water extractions are a feasible solution. The only thing is they take way longer than a day.

Freezing the seeds after the first boil is a novel idea to me. Not sure how much it would help but it's worth a shot I guess.

I don't really agree with adding the base directly to the unground seeds. They are hard enough to work with without adding powerful bases into the mix when there are safer ways.

I don't remember the thread but it seems that yield is affected by not grinding the seeds. I use a Magic Bullet blender and it works great. I'm sure a coffee grinder would work pretty well too. But that does increase the amount of sludge you have to deal with.

My only recommendation to ease the initial steps is to do a crude m/ethanol extraction, evap that and clean up the goo you get. That would cut out 90% of the straining and crud you have to deal with. I would recommend something along the lines of Endlessness's Extracting DMT with Ethanol thread. That thread is for dmt but it should work with harmalas as well.

Either way, thank you for your contribution and thinking about ways to make rue extractions easier. They are a pain in the keister but so worth it in the end.

 

[mew]

a benefit to a quick no effort cwe is to make the seeds softer and potentially dissolve some barrier letting alkaloids be reached without sludge effect, or so i thought

either way, now that the seeds are soft and weak i can maybe use a blender instead to grind them effectively without risk to my blender, with which a third vinegar cook will done

out of curiosity is there any benefit to using d limo with rue?

 

[biopsylo]

i have had great results with simply boiling whole seeds in h20 + vinegar

never did a side by side test with whole vs. ground seeds...

there is no need for solvents, just salt, vinegar and sodium carbonate.

 

[mew]

im leaving my vinegar cwe separate from my frozen boiled vinegar, and im combing the last 2 rue smoothie h2o boils to see what all came out on the first two comparatively to pulverized seed boils

 

[SHroomtroll]

i have had great results with simply boiling whole seeds in h20 + vinegar

never did a side by side test with whole vs. ground seeds...

there is no need for solvents, just salt, vinegar and sodium carbonate.

This is what ive done now, 150-200g of whole rue cooked 5x1h filtered through a cloth a few times and then based.

no salting since i rather do it gibrans way and also try full spectrum rue.

It look like a huge pile of alks, i will report a yield later.

 

[biopsylo]

[/quote]


This is what ive done now, 150-200g of whole rue cooked 5x1h filtered through a cloth a few times and then based.

no salting since i rather do it gibrans way and also try full spectrum rue.

It look like a huge pile of alks, i will report a yield later.[/quote]


it is my understanding that salting crashes out unwanted compounds (unwanted for some)--the names of which i dont remember atm.

basically the compounds that can cause nausea.

 

[endlessness]

I think harmalas can also cause some nausea by themselves but yeah for some people seems vasicine/vasicinone/deoxyvasicine ( Vasicinone, Vasicine and Deoxyvasicine - Collaborative Research Project - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus ) can have some side effects... But at the same time there are some claims of potential medical benefits from them being relaxant and bronchodilator. One thing is for sure, it shouldnt be taken by pregnant women because its abortifacient.

Back to the topic, as I mentioned in the chat, some tips for bulk rue extractions:

- Filter thoroughly before precipitating
- Use lye to precipitate alkaloids, because then you have all your harmaline also precipitate (With sodium carb you may lose a bit of harmaline), and also because lye seems to precipitate cleaner alkaloids and less gunk. If you dont want to risk having lye in your final product, do only the last basing with sodium carb.
- Coffee filter in a metal strainer is better than coffee filter in a funnel (more area for dripping), when alkaloids are precipitated.
- Decant as much as possible, to avoid some of the filtering
- When precipitating the salt, use just the right amount of salt (100g per 1l solution), and let it cool slowly, because this way the alkaloids take a couple of hours to precipitate but they precpitate as cleaner needles that are easier to filter
- Invest in a buchner/vacuum source/filtering flask if possible for the future.

 

[The Day Tripper]

I think cwe's would be more of a pain as you would have to use alot more water due to harmala salts low solubility in cold water compared to hot. Why not try putting your seeds in a old sheet, and make a big tea bag, brew it 2x w/ vinegar for 20 min ea or so. Freeze the teabag after squeezing it out, then brew again 2x then discard. Combine all the liquids, crude filter (cotton fiber, etc) then let it sit and decant in the fridge for two days.

Pour off the clean stuff, keep the sludge, and add more distilled water vinegar, cook it in the macrowave, then let it cool @ room temp and decant. Keep the top liquid and discard the goop.

Idea being that harmala alkaloids are much more soluble in warm/hot water compared to their relatively shitty solubility in cold water (manske). The room temp gunk wash should keep the extra precipitated alkaloids and remove the junk.

Don't grind the seeds at all, swelling/freezing should be enough to get the alkaoids out.

Then reduce the liquid to a manageable amount, filter well, and base. Proceed with manske on redissolved freebase in vinegar, or keep as is after washing with ph neutral water. You could also rebase it out another few times to clean it up w/out leaving behind the vascine and other alkaoids as manskes do.

The next time i extract rue, I'm going for the big dirty with an a/b on a lb of seeds. Hopefully I'll be able to document and share the process if i can remember to do so.

After brewing, filtering, and reducing the liquid, I'll base/redissolve in acidic water the alkaloids out a few times until its precipitating out of clear uncolored water, wash with distilled water to remove excess base, then take the freebase and add it to heated hcl/distilled water.

Then filter, and evap that to get fairly pure full spectrum harmala hcl, without excess manske salt, and with the alkaloids a manske would leave behind or waste. I can manske my full spectrum hcls later if i want vascine/etc free harmala hcls.

Just have to remember that harmala salt solutions always need to be hot when filtered, or your going to get some alkaloid precipitation due to reduced solubility, and lose some yield in the gunk. This is also true for harmala fumarate. I converted a few grams of freebase i had to fumarates a while back, and after the water cooled on the pyrex dish a bunch of crystals crashed out. I was curious, so i nuked it for 30 sec and they all went back into solution once the water was warmer.


But as far as filtering issues, just don't grind your seeds. Just brew/freeze/brew like cactus, use a fabric tea bag, and you'll avoid the gunk for the most part.

 

[mew]

i reduced my 3 gallons down to about 1/3 of a gallon and am letting decant over night, could i put it in the freezer and then leave it for x amount of time to help settle solids or would that make the solution insoluable for the harmalas?

 

[The Day Tripper]

i reduced my 3 gallons down to about 1/3 of a gallon and am letting decant over night, could i put it in the freezer and then leave it for x amount of time to help settle solids or would that make the solution insoluble for the harmalas?

I couldn't really say. My gut tells me yes, as caapi alkaloids extracted with vinegar will fall out of solution when it gets cold or frozen. As long as you do a warm/hot water wash on the gunk to make sure you got all the alkaloids out after decanting the cold water it should be fine. I find that alot of crap other than alkaloids in caapi thats soluble in the water can be dealt with by freezing and thawing the brew. For me at least it make chunks of stuff insoluble even when it was simmering on the stove. So those chunks of crap couldn't be harmalas.

Perhaps try this with your 1/3 gallon of liquid, freezing it that is, then thaw and let it warm up and settle. See if it gets any clearer. The only thing you have to remember is if your pulling cold alkaloid liquid off of gunk, theres going to be alkaoids left in the gunk. But it prob is easier to decant off the cleaner cold liquid, then add a MUCH smaller volume of hot liquid to the gunk and let that settle in a hot water bath. The more it settles the less of a pain in the ass filtering is.

IE, pour 90% of the liquid through the filter begin careful to leave behind the sludge, then add another 10% water, heat it up to 150F +, then let it settle if you can first, or just pour it though your filter. Thats how i do it with my vac apparatus to minimize the time and # of filter papers used.

My rule is to never filter/decant a harmala solution unless its hot. It requires more work, but if that means freezing and filtering multiple times with differing fineness of filters, its worth what you don't lose in yield.

 

[endlessness]

I have done a side by side once with whole vs grinded rue, and I got a significantly lower yield with whole seeds, so I always grind it now. I dont remember the details but I remember this conclusion.

Funny enough infundibulum did the same and he got a similar yield, I think he used a coffee machine to make it?

Harmala in salt form should definitely not crash out of water at room temperature or even fridge temperature (im not sure about freezer temperatures.. I recommend filtering once its not hot anymore because you will clean more than if you filter only when its hot.

You can always save the gunk just in case, until you finish extracting, if you have a low yield you can try to add warm water to the gunk and filter and extract from it....

 

[biopsylo]

I think harmalas can also cause some nausea by themselves but yeah for some people seems vasicine/vasicinone/deoxyvasicine ( Vasicinone, Vasicine and Deoxyvasicine - Collaborative Research Project - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus ) can have some side effects... But at the same time there are some claims of potential medical benefits from them being relaxant and bronchodilator. One thing is for sure, it shouldnt be taken by pregnant women because its abortifacient.

Back to the topic, as I mentioned in the chat, some tips for bulk rue extractions:

- Filter thoroughly before precipitating
- Use lye to precipitate alkaloids, because then you have all your harmaline also precipitate (With sodium carb you may lose a bit of harmaline), and also because lye seems to precipitate cleaner alkaloids and less gunk. If you dont want to risk having lye in your final product, do only the last basing with sodium carb.
- Coffee filter in a metal strainer is better than coffee filter in a funnel (more area for dripping), when alkaloids are precipitated.
- Decant as much as possible, to avoid some of the filtering
- When precipitating the salt, use just the right amount of salt (100g per 1l solution), and let it cool slowly, because this way the alkaloids take a couple of hours to precipitate but they precpitate as cleaner needles that are easier to filter
- Invest in a buchner/vacuum source/filtering flask if possible for the future.

you know now that you mention it, the one time i ate a rue harmalas for pharma, i had good visuals, but it got uncomfortable a couple hours in. i felt nausea, but could not purge. kept feeling like i had to go to the bathroom, but couldn't either. so it was pretty bad discomfort for a couple hours. for this reason, i have avoided rue all together. with caapi i get a good purge, easily.

Endlessness, i have asthmatic symptoms sometimes. i am interested in rue for this. i saw your thread, and find it interesting, and wonder if there is any more info on this topic?

 

[MelCat]

I think harmalas can also cause some nausea by themselves but yeah for some people seems vasicine/vasicinone/deoxyvasicine ( Vasicinone, Vasicine and Deoxyvasicine - Collaborative Research Project - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus ) can have some side effects... But at the same time there are some claims of potential medical benefits from them being relaxant and bronchodilator. One thing is for sure, it shouldnt be taken by pregnant women because its abortifacient.

Back to the topic, as I mentioned in the chat, some tips for bulk rue extractions:

- Filter thoroughly before precipitating
- Use lye to precipitate alkaloids, because then you have all your harmaline also precipitate (With sodium carb you may lose a bit of harmaline), and also because lye seems to precipitate cleaner alkaloids and less gunk. If you dont want to risk having lye in your final product, do only the last basing with sodium carb.
- Coffee filter in a metal strainer is better than coffee filter in a funnel (more area for dripping), when alkaloids are precipitated.
- Decant as much as possible, to avoid some of the filtering
- When precipitating the salt, use just the right amount of salt (100g per 1l solution), and let it cool slowly, because this way the alkaloids take a couple of hours to precipitate but they precpitate as cleaner needles that are easier to filter
- Invest in a buchner/vacuum source/filtering flask if possible for the future.

you know now that you mention it, the one time i ate a rue harmalas for pharma, i had good visuals, but it got uncomfortable a couple hours in. i felt nausea, but could not purge. kept feeling like i had to go to the bathroom, but couldn't either. so it was pretty bad discomfort for a couple hours. for this reason, i have avoided rue all together. with caapi i get a good purge, easily.

Endlessness, i have asthmatic symptoms sometimes. i am interested in rue for this. i saw your thread, and find it interesting, and wonder if there is any more info on this topic?

I think that raw rue is just one of those things your body has to acclimate itself for. Each time I take raw rue, it always gets a little easier. There is still a considerable body load even after taking it for awhile so it never gets completely better. I don't get the same hangover type feeling from pure rue alkaloids that I do from raw ground rue seeds so all the extra alks in there are taking some sort of toll on the body.

As far as the respiratory aspects of it...

I've been a pretty heavy smoker for years and nothing cleans the pipes like a good dose of pharma using raw rue. I'll usually cough until I purge but I always feel like I've got a new set of lungs afterward. It definitely helps release all of the lung butter that's been hanging around.

If your asthma prone, you might want to keep your inhaler on-hand just in case. I'm sure it doesn't affect everyone like it does me, but if it does, you'll find it a worthwhile undertaking to help clear up any breathing issues.

 

[biopsylo]

thanks for sharing our experience with rue, Melodic. im wondering if the alk(s) responsible for healing lungs could be isolated and taken separately, to avoid body discomfort (and unwanted?) trip to hyperspace:d

 

[The Day Tripper]

I have done a side by side once with whole vs grinded rue, and I got a significantly lower yield with whole seeds, so I always grind it now. I dont remember the details but I remember this conclusion.

Funny enough infundibulum did the same and he got a similar yield, I think he used a coffee machine to make it?

Harmala in salt form should definitely not crash out of water at room temperature or even fridge temperature (im not sure about freezer temperatures.. I recommend filtering once its not hot anymore because you will clean more than if you filter only when its hot.

You can always save the gunk just in case, until you finish extracting, if you have a low yield you can try to add warm water to the gunk and filter and extract from it....

A question and a comment if you don't mind,

Did you freeze your seeds between brewing when you did the side b/ side comparison of ground/whole seeds?

And as far as harmala solubility, when i was converting some freebase to fumarates, i added freebase rue extract to a calculated amount of fumaric acid and hot distilled water. It was fairly saturated, and it had to be heated fairly well, and stirred for a while for everything to dissolve. When i began pipetteing the water into a pyrex dish to evaporate, as soon as the solution hit the glass, it began to crystallize due to rapid cooling. It wasn't fumaric acid xtyals, it looked like manske hcl's. There was very little excess fumaric acid as well, so i doubt it was anything other than harmala fumarate.

Getting hcl solutions cold in the fridge vs. some other configurations should show if they precipitate just to do cooling or the nacl in the water, or to what extent the nacl helps. Ideally a sample of hcl in distilled water, a few of the same amount/concentration with various %'s of salt added, and a harmala fumarate, and acetate version of that too if you want to get real fancy.

Anyone have any links or info as to the various harmala salts solubility in water at certain temps? If anything you could cold precipitate, w/out salt, reduce, precipitate again, reduce, and keep going until theres very little left. Kinda like naptha in a freeze precipitation.

But maybe if you do a heavily acidified brew, and everything gets converted to acetates vs. possibly tannates, etc, then this cooling would not be an issue with some acids. I just know it happens with pure fumarates in hot distilled water, and caapi sediment that i suspect contains harmala tannate salts that precipitate/settle when refrigerated. This all depends on concentrations of alkaloids in the water, what acid, what temp though. Prob a little more complex than i understand it as.

 

[Crystalito]

Fearing a bit of becoming tiring , i would also like to publicly suggest the use of pectinases to break down the sludge/mucilage. It worked with peganum mucilage before, so if one is willing to go in extensive lengths of filtering upon filtering and decanting upon decanting i cant see why an easily found enzyme couldnt be added to make a difficult extraction a tad more easier.