bunch of questions about peganum harmala usage

[B1ack_Ph03niX]

Hello friends
I was very eager to consume Peganum harmala seeds but couldn't answer a few questions about it.
Some sites have written about the adverse effects Peganum harmala puts on the liver and kidneys
And why is it that we extract pure harmaline from the seeds of this plant? Will this have a devastating effect on the body?
(I know, of course, that some of these detrimental effects are due to non-compliance with the diet.)
And finally somebody can explain to me the experience of micro-dosing and its effects and properties.

Thanks for all the help you have given me so far:grin:

 

[Sabnock1990]

I took Rue seed itself daily/near daily for 4 years, no adverse effects that i've noticed, liver and kidneys fine, took dosages up to 4 grams of seed powder encapsulated, took it regularly, let the reverse tolerance build up so the dosage got stronger and stronger, never noticed any adverse effects or physical toxicity. As far as microdosing, i'm not sure, always taken at least 2 to 2.5 grams of Rue. I've also taken 180 to 200mgs of Rue extract and purified Harmala extract daily for 8 months straight, no issues there either.

The reason we extract from Rue seed is because it makes it more tolerable on the stomach, and we can smoke the extract, it's also easier to dose, it also leaves out a couple alkaloids that while not toxic, they are contraindicated for pregnant women as they supposedly can cause an abortion, but other than that, the Rue/Harmalas are non-toxic. Even if you were to overdose on the Rue/Harmalas or even Caapi, you'd vomit it all back up before reaching seriously toxic levels.

Also, no need to diet or avoid any foods like Tyramine-containing foods, that's only an issue with irreversible and non-selective MAO-A and MAO-B inhibiting MAOI's, not with reversible inhibitors of MAO-A aka RIMA's.

 

[Eaglepath]

Also, no need to diet or avoid any foods like Tyramine-containing foods, that's only an issue with irreversible and non-selective MAO-A and MAO-B inhibiting MAOI's, not with reversible inhibitors of MAO-A aka RIMA's.

Due to still pretty limiting research and experience in general regarding this matter, maybe its not the best thing to send out a generelizing message. It is still people that are very sensitive to combination of for example Ayahuasca and tyramine rich food. Some are not.

 

[Jagube]

Due to still pretty limiting research and experience in general regarding this matter, maybe its not the best thing to send out a generelizing message. It is still people that are very sensitive to combination of for example Ayahuasca and tyramine rich food. Some are not.

Seconded.

Even without any MAO inhibition, some people experience reactions after eating cheese, because they're more sensitive to tyramine or their natural MAO levels are low. Adding RIMA's would temporarily reduce those even further.

From the Wikipedia article on Tyramine:

A large dietary intake of tyramine (or a dietary intake of tyramine while taking MAO inhibitors) can cause the tyramine pressor response, which is defined as an increase in systolic blood pressure of 30 mmHg or more. The increased release of norepinephrine (noradrenaline) from neuronal cytosol or storage vesicles is thought to cause the vasoconstriction and increased heart rate and blood pressure of the pressor response. In severe cases, adrenergic crisis can occur.[medical citation needed] Although the mechanism is unclear, tyramine ingestion also triggers migraine attacks in sensitive individuals.

 

[Sabnock1990]

The science is pretty clear on reversible MAO-A inhibition and Tyramine, just look up Moclobemide, no Tyramine reactions noted, and Harmalas only inhibit MAO-A as well. Plenty of people consume Harmalas, without following dietary recommendations, and everything is fine. Those who "think" they've had some sort of reaction due to having a headache, forget that Harmalas cause vasodilation, and inhibit Acetylcholinesterase, both of which can cause headaches. In fact, i've drank beer on top of Harmalas and had a horrible headache, due to the vasodilation which is pretty obvious.

So yes, we can send out a general message that there's no dietary interactions, people have been aware of this for years now yet some people still don't seem to get the message. If you wish, you can be cautious, but it's unnecessary. So, i guess have fun avoiding foods you don't need to lol.

Also add in the fact that Tyramine is metabolized by both MAO-A and MAO-B, so while the Harmalas (or Moclobemide) inhibits MAO-A (which due to the inhibition being reversible and selective, gut MAO-A is only inhibited for a maximum of 2 hours), MAO-B is free to metabolize Tyramine. Also it's been said Tyramine can displace reversible MAO-A inhibition if need be, to allow MAO-A to metabolize it like usual. But, as i said, the gut's MAO-A inhibition is transitory and temporary, lasting at most 2 hours, probably more like an hour, which is evidenced by DMT not being orally activated past a certain time frame.

 

[Sabnock1990]

Trust me on this guys, the research is pretty easily obtainable, all you have to do is look, and try out some personal experimentation. The best way to tell there's no dietary interactions, is to consume the Harmalas regularly for a period of time, building up the reverse tolerance, which does away with the side-effects like nausea/vomiting/diarrhea, clears up the body load, things feel cleaner, more tolerable/manageable, the motor function impairment is reduced, etc, then you can eat even right after taking a whopping mega huge dose of Harmalas, and have no nausea/vomiting, no Tyramine interactions, not even a headache.

If people were serious about studying this stuff rather than just making silly assumptions, we'd get further around here. I look at the science, the facts and of course personal experience, but i don't experience a headache and automatically assume it's Tyramine, because there are other explanations that fit better. But no, people are so afraid, with absolutely no good reason to be.

Tyramine is ONLY an issue with irreversible MAOI's, particularly those that inhibit BOTH MAO-A and MAO-B, it's not an issue with reversible and selective MAO-A inhibitors. There's plenty of people and groups who do not follow dietary restrictions/advice, and have reported no problems, and those who have reported problems, likely are blaming Tyramine when it's not the Tyramine, people like to jump to conclusions too much without putting much thought or experimentation into it.

 

[Sabnock1990]

Now, i'm not saying there aren't some sensitive individuals out there, but i highly doubt the majority of people are going to have any issue with Tyramine. If someone suspects they're sensitive, simply be cautious, and don't eat 2 hours before or 2 hours after consuming Harmalas, after 2 hours, gut MAO-A returns to normal and Tyramine WILL BE metabolized as usual. It's not a big deal, at all.

 

[B1ack_Ph03niX]

I took Rue seed itself daily/near daily for 4 years, no adverse effects that i've noticed, liver and kidneys fine, took dosages up to 4 grams of seed powder encapsulated, took it regularly, let the reverse tolerance build up so the dosage got stronger and stronger, never noticed any adverse effects or physical toxicity. As far as microdosing, i'm not sure, always taken at least 2 to 2.5 grams of Rue. I've also taken 180 to 200mgs of Rue extract and purified Harmala extract daily for 8 months straight, no issues there either.

The reason we extract from Rue seed is because it makes it more tolerable on the stomach, and we can smoke the extract, it's also easier to dose, it also leaves out a couple alkaloids that while not toxic, they are contraindicated for pregnant women as they supposedly can cause an abortion, but other than that, the Rue/Harmalas are non-toxic. Even if you were to overdose on the Rue/Harmalas or even Caapi, you'd vomit it all back up before reaching seriously toxic levels.

Also, no need to diet or avoid any foods like Tyramine-containing foods, that's only an issue with irreversible and non-selective MAO-A and MAO-B inhibiting MAOI's, not with reversible inhibitors of MAO-A aka RIMA's.

Thanks for all the information you provided me ShamensStamen

 

[Sabnock1990]

You're welcome, just trying to spread the knowledge/info and what all i've learned throughout my experimentation.

 

[Jees]

My 2cents about the diet thingy:

I know how I feel when I consume a serious batch of tyramine rich foods, just sober. Imagine a French cheese diner.

I don't like the effect after such a meal. Not sick (!) but not a fine feeling at all. It's not the same but about in the direction of too much caffeine, a sure unsettled feeling. I can feel it ebbing away and restore to baseline after half a day or so. Again: all without drugs! And definitely the cheese doings.
Maybe I'm sensitive, maybe other people are bad in monitoring their feelings, maybe both?
Mind that in trip feelings get easily magnified.


About digesting rue, seed or extracts, don't buy 'danger for your health', I concur with ShamensStamen, perhaps only in the odd isolated case.
Yet...
if my 'tuning' is affected by only a small fraction, say 5 or 10%, in a direction that I don't like, it's worth for me avoiding it like part of {set and setting}.

An example: suppose the neighbours are having an argument while you are in a trip and you hear that in a dim distance. It's not dangerous for you, it doesn't hurt, but it potentially affects your tuning.

Same with 'going in' when you are stuffed with all-diet-safe food. It has never ever hurt anyone to go in with a burdened digestion system, but it's just not a cool feeling to go in like that.

Personally I care for set and setting (food included as said) mostly to un-burden the come up + peak as much as I can because there all is most intense and difficult enough already. During come down however with harmalas still not zeroed, I have less problems eating a piece of pizza.
In preparation of a session I am much more concerned about caring of my bodily feelings and their precursors in a pragmatic way. More attention to that than about i.e. executing protecting rituals from whatever. But that's just me, one gotta find out for yourself what works best.

Happy trials.

 

[metta-morpheus]

That picture has about 5 cheeses that I make at my work. (I work at a cheese plant that makes French style cheeses).

I can smell my work just from looking at the picture lol

 

[Sabnock1990]

I'd eat that cheese, even within the first 2 hours of the Rue, but that's me lol.

 

[downwardsfromzero]

I tend to concur with Jees on this one.

Cheese is a complex mixture of many substances, the mixture depending on the exact cheese of course. Blue cheeses ripened by Penicillium roquefortii tend to contain a "neurotoxic" indole alkaloid, roquefortine, for example. And some cheese oligopeptides are endorphin analogues. [reference pending]

Sometimes eating too much cheese leaves me quite jittery, and eating blue cheese before bedtime really will cause me to have bizarre dreams (more notably bizarre than normal, that is - with a certain 'cheese' feel to them).

So go with your feelings on this one and listen to what your body says. There's more to it than just the tyramine.

 

[Sabnock1990]

Maybe, but it's Tyramine that is of concern here when it comes to MAOI's. Idk if other compounds found in cheeses would interact with MAOI's or not, but you can bet your booty that reversible MAO-A inhibition is pretty darn safe and only inhibits gut MAO-A for a maximum of 1 to 2 hours, so if you're so concerned about cheese/foods, just don't eat anything 2 hours before or after consuming Harmalas, no big deal imo, certainly no need to fast/diet for a day or few days or weeks or so and no need to avoid anything, just take the Harmalas on an empty stomach, wait a couple hours (or until hour 6 to 8 ), and then you can eat. I've always eaten my dinner in the 6th hour of the Rue/Harmalas coming down from an Aya experience, never noticed any issues at all. I also take a few medicines/supplements with Rue/Harmalas and in the 6th hour, including a blood pressure med called Tizanidine which is potentiated by the Harmala's CYP1A2 inhibition, but even though it's potentiated it's quite safe. People really over exaggerate the supposed risks of Harmalas, i don't find them particularly risky at all, but as downwardsfromzero said, listen to your body, but don't overthink it, just go with what feels right to you and if you feel a little experimental, try some things out, but don't jump to conclusions is all i gotta say. Study the plants and yourself, and how things affect you personally, but don't be afraid, Harmalas and reversible MAO-A inhibition is pretty darn safe, just don't mix the wrong drugs with it and you're certain to be absolutely fine, i assure you. But, do what you want, most people have accepted the fact that there's no dietary issues when it comes to Harmalas, while some confuse some of the side-effects of Harmalas with that of dietary interactions, just be smart and put things to the test, or else you won't know for sure i guess.

 

[Jees]

There see no disagreement in this thread.
You focus on the specific relationship between maoi's and tyramine.
I suppose Nick Sand would agree with you on that one, still he would do a lot of things of which you would say is absolutely unnecessary to do.
That "jittery" DWFZ spoke of, I don't want 1% of that in my take of suit, if I simply could chose so.

So in the end I might still respect the diet incongruence rule maybe for other reasons than the maoi-tyramine thingy, some other molecules rolling a ball in my pins.

 

[downwardsfromzero]

The jitteriness is quite possibly from tyramine-mediated noradrenaline (norepinephrine) release.

Opioids are contraindicated with harmalas, so an opioid effect from cheese could also be considered a contraindication.

 

[Sabnock1990]

I would highly recommend/suggest, regardless, to test things out as much as you can, with just the Rue/Harmalas (or Moclobemide, or Caapi), without any DMT in the mix, could also maybe mix in Lemon Balm tea or some other herbal tea with it if one wanted to, but do that a few good times, test out one's response to dietary things, see if there's any noticeable response. Also, keep in mind the Harmaline has some other properties that Harmine doesn't have, like COMT inhibition, and some other things, and could be a bit more Noradrenergic than sole MAO-A inhibition, but i'm not sure. Just keep in mind that just because one may have some side-effect or issue, it does not at all mean it's dietary-related, it could just be and likely is, some side-effect of Harmalas. Especially if you build up the Harmala reverse tolerance, and do away with the side-effects, you can then eat literally right after a hefty dosage of Harmalas/Rue and there's no nausea/vomiting, no headache, no issues at all that i can tell for me personally.