Caapi beta-Carboline Variability

[gibran2]

I’ve lately become much more interested in caapi: preparation of a traditional brew, extraction of alkaloids, and (soon) comparison of different types of caapi. A little bit of research has shown that the alkaloid content of caapi is highly variable.

---- This source, Three Beta-Carboline Containing Plants (Gracie and Zarkov), reports 0.1% alkaloids.

---- Wikipedia reports alkaloid content ranging from 0.11-0.83%.

---- My own extractions from black caapi have yielded about 1.5-2.2% alkaloids.

If we assume a typical alkaloid dose (for ayahuasca) is about 250mg, this means the amount of vine that must be consumed can range from a low of 11g to a high of 250g!!! Does caapi alkaloid content actually vary that much? If so, how does one determine an effective yet not excessive dose?

 

[ms_manic_minxx]

this means the amount of vine that must be consumed can range from a low of 11g to a high of 250g!!!

All I can say to that is... YES! Unfortunately.

There are subtle nuances you can accustom yourself to with some cooking practice--much seems to be revealed by the smell when cooking. The strongest vines I have ever cooked have always smelled bitter, like bitter almonds, just while cooking before reduction. Sweeter, buttery, cinnamon-like vines feel smoother on the body. So, alkaloid ratios probably impact the smell of the vine while cooking, but this is very intuitive and not as immediately scientific.

It has also been my experience that the more I drink, the more sensitive I become, but paradoxically, the dose that I can handle becomes larger, so the line for what "excessive" is can also get blurry.

Ideally, a dose several times what is required for the bare minimum of MAO inhibition brings about the visionary/guiding/healing presence of the vine. With the vine I prefer, DMT is active at 20g of vine for me (possibly lower), but my sweet spot is around 120g. 160g is a bit more challenging, but rewarding.

I used to drunkenly stumble around and crawl to the washroom at 50g... now I can take more than twice that and walk a straight line (possibly even win a game of hopscotch ). And sometimes the exact same dose will hit me in wildly different ways two different days back to back. So what is a personally effective dose--besides extremely variable, anyway?

The bottom line, for all variables considered, type of vine, one's own body, and all celestial influences of the particular day is: listen to your body. Drinking slowly and feeling the medicine settle into your body will tell you everything you need to know. Do you feel warm? Tingly? Dizzy? Euphoric? Do you have tracers? Are you drifting into a trance? Does your stomach growl? Your body knows, and it is the most direct experience of what is actually going on... While numbers might be a guide, the real answer happens inside you, so tune in.

Drinking slowly reveals a lot... I have had certain vines where it was physically IMPOSSIBLE to get down more than 50g, and that was plenty. However, other vines are very sweet and inviting, and getting down double the dose is a breeze. Smell and taste will tell a lot about the bodyload...

Or, you know, you could extract a bunch of vines and weigh the final product, I suppose.

 

[olympus mon]

Does caapi alkaloid content actually vary that much? If so, how does one determine an effective yet not excessive dose?

not that this is at all technical help but i find it helpful to buy a kilo at a time and always do a strong caapi only evening to gauge where this vine stock is at potency wise.
just as your readings have shown you its not just color and region but also supplier, harvest and proper drying and curing. the numbers can vary quite a bit from many different reasons.

my thinking is you can only precisely know about your personal current vine stock as to the correct grams of vine and this from trial and error. the general information about the various vines are helpful but dont seem to be a sure-fire way of knowing how much vine is going to give you 250mg harmala's or desired amount.

again im not sure if this is answering your inquiry but ive had the same thoughts and this is what im doing to gain the most learning and positive experiences.

 

[gibran2]

Thanks for the responses. As usual, answers lead to more questions:

How Much Is Too Much?

It’s obvious that it’s possible to underdose on caapi – if too little is taken then there will be insufficient MAO inhibition leading to little or no effects from DMT. I’ve found that a low-dose caapi tea has its own unique benefits, so I wouldn’t always call it an underdose.

Then there’s a point where full inhibition is reached, but not full caapi effect.

There’s another point beyond full inhibition where the psychedelic aspects of caapi begin to manifest – I assume this is the target when consuming ayahuasca?

Within reason, is it possible to take too much caapi? How do you know if you’ve taken too much?


Does an Alkaloid-Only Experience Differ Significantly
From a Traditional Brew Experience?

I suppose I could answer this question myself, but so far I’ve tried a traditional brew only once (very mild nausea, but felt physically ill) and tried extracted alkaloids with low-dose DMT (long, but pleasantly mild).

Are there any non-alkaloid substances in a traditional brew that contribute to the experience, but would be removed by extraction? I know this is very subjective territory, so I don’t need a definitive answer – opinions will suffice.

I guess an ayahuasca purist would suggest that any alteration of the brew will alter effects, but if extraction removes only nausea-producing tannins, etc., then wouldn’t an extracted alkaloid experience and a traditional brew experience be very similar?

 

[jamie]

I can have full inhibition at like 15-25g of vine almost always..though I prefer to drink at least 25 grams and often more like 50g..even if I drink 5 grams I will feel it slightly for a brief time, but probly not enough to inhibit mao..

 

[ms_manic_minxx]

In my opinion, there is really no such thing as too much Caapi. A larger dose may (or may not!) intensify effects, including nausea, visual distortions, length of journey. There is nothing that happens at a higher dose of Caapi that doesn't happen with a moderate one, you just feel it more.

Sometimes, a nice and strong vine will make me question the purpose of adding any DMT--it can be intensely visual, bring the carrier wave, etc.

But there are no physical dangers with loads of Caapi (barring an interaction, like with SSRIs)... it's just MORE.