caapi questions/changa clarification UPDATE: results are in..and so are more questions

[fibfab3301]

Hey yall happy monday! hope everyone had a nice weekend! I am am posting here again for more clarification.

Recently I have been reading nearly all of the Changa stickied threads so that i may create my own blend of REAL changa as opposed to just enhanced leaf (I usually just use cannabis). In reading the threads I see a lot of people saying one thing and a lot of people saying the opposite. I understand everyone is different and the only way to truly find out is to do it yourself (which i plan on doing) BUT before i do so and get things fully under way i just wanted to ask some questions and get some clarification.

So first things first.. I plan on starting with just Caapi vine and leaves. I will be doing 3 different methods.. 1). just finely chopped/shredded vine 2). a 10x caapi leaf infusion. and 3). an extraction of the caapi vine.

SO my first question is: WHAT KIND OF VINE AND HOW BIG?

Red? Yellow? Black? Ive heard much talk of yellow and black. but can anyone specify the differences or which one is more often preferred? ive also read that the vine needs to at least the width of a finger.. is this true? (i would think it to be so)

Ive also been reading alot that smoking the vine will not do anything and others swear that it will.. if it does work which i hope and believe it does) about how much stronger does the addition/presence of the vine and MAOI make the experience and how much longer does it extend the time of the experience? While i appreciated reading the Aya vs. Changa thread I have never drank ayahuasca so I can not fully understand (i guess thats the appropriate word) the comparison given.. How different is it from just normal freebase or infused cannabis?

Secondly, I plan on infusing my leaf/plant mixture by way of a solvent..WHAT SOLVENT WORKS BEST?

acetone? alcohol? any others?

THIRD QUESTION REGARDS SPICE ADDED.. Do you use your nice crystals (washed/recrystalized or no) or do you use goo? ACRB or MHRB (i remember reading that using MHRB would be like "kissing your sister"....i didnt really get that haha maybe cause i don't have a sister? hah) anyone care to expand on this... which form of your spice do you guys prefer to add?

LAST QUESTION..I've seen many people talking about adding salvia to mixes...this seems very wild to me! I am correct to assume that the salvia that is talked about being added is not extracted/enhanced by any means? I haven't smoked salvia in quite some time but the last times i did were very out of this world/out of control..I have been interested in re introducing myself and this seems like it may be a very nice way..or very bad.. anyone personal accounts are greatly appreciated.

Thank you for reading and responding. Cant wait to get things going (after more research of course!)

 

[furhenden]

Never used vine myself, so I can't help ya there.

I have used "10x caapi leaf" as my base primarily so far, but at this point I have always added additional freebased harmalas from syrian rue as well, usually in a 3:3:1 (L: D:H) ratio, I probably should try a batch of just 10x caapi + spice.

I don't think the color of the vine matters much, but I don't have direct experience.

Regarding how the experience differs from regular FB dmt, (my experiences are all what I would call sub breakthrough fwiw) it is a pretty big difference IME. The time frame is fairly similar, but slightly longer, with the main difference being that it comes up slowly over a minute or two instead of all at once. It lingers a little longer, as does the afterglow, which will be a little more sedated feeling from the harmalas IME. All in all it feels way way more controlled to me, it feels much less foreign, alien, intense, and more meditative, comforting, mellow. The whole experience is slowed down significantly when it comes to the rate of speed of the visuals. Time frame for me in between taking a puff is usually about 15-20 mins, that is about the main duration of a puff(or series of puffs) IME.

Best solvent is 95% ethanol (everclear/grain alcohol) heat it up for best results.

I have used both waxy red/orange goo, and large nice slightly yellow crystals, all came from ACRB, all works well.

I think the batch I made with goo felt more warm and loving / healing maybe, hard to say...

I have not added salvia yet, but plan on trying some plain leaf added in a batch at some point in the future.

 

[fibfab3301]

Thank you for your reply and suggestions/help.. is the added harmalas necessary on the 10x caapi leaves or is that just personal preference?

 

[Chan]

Your enthusiasm is great to see, Fibfab!

But I wouldn't recommend smoking caapi vine. The colors are supposed to indicate the color of visions you experience, so yellow and blue (cielo) are often recommended for beginners, but by weight, the vine is still a weak source of harmalas (they are substances within it, not something else). You might drink anywhere from 30-100 grams of vine, brewed, so smoking 0.5 gram is not going to deliver much in the way of harmalas...

And it's much worse if you're vaping, because harmalas don't usually vape very well (temp is usually too low).

I don't think you need to run such a big trial, yet.

Personally, I prefer IPA as a solvent, as it draws less moisture than acetone, but if you live somewhere hot and dry, then acetone is probably excellent.

Goo/crystals are equally fine, just make sure they're clean of any lye/contaminants.

Personally, I wouldn't dream of adding Salvia to a smoking blend. She is something else. Spice is too. They have their own, different ways of making you see things. If the combo was good, this place would be full of it! But if it's just to get f'd up, then I expect other places go crazy for it instead...

Sounds like you made a nice ACRB batch? I'd suggest drinking some caapi, and smoking/vaping some of that 10 minutes later...

Caapi is the key, not the DMT, IME...

:twisted:

 

[fibfab3301]

Your enthusiasm is great to see, Fibfab!

But I wouldn't recommend smoking caapi vine. The colors are supposed to indicate the color of visions you experience, so yellow and blue (cielo) are often recommended for beginners, but by weight, the vine is still a weak source of harmalas (they are substances within it, not something else). You might drink anywhere from 30-100 grams of vine, brewed, so smoking 0.5 gram is not going to deliver much in the way of harmalas...

And it's much worse if you're vaping, because harmalas don't usually vape very well (temp is usually too low).

I don't think you need to run such a big trial, yet.

Personally, I prefer IPA as a solvent, as it draws less moisture than acetone, but if you live somewhere hot and dry, then acetone is probably excellent.

Goo/crystals are equally fine, just make sure they're clean of any lye/contaminants.

Personally, I wouldn't dream of adding Salvia to a smoking blend. She is something else. Spice is too. They have their own, different ways of making you see things. If the combo was good, this place would be full of it! But if it's just to get f'd up, then I expect other places go crazy for it instead...

Sounds like you made a nice ACRB batch? I'd suggest drinking some caapi, and smoking/vaping some of that 10 minutes later...

Caapi is the key, not the DMT, IME...

:twisted:

Thank you very much for you input Chan! I a, quite enthusiastic and excited and why shouldn't one be hah but yes of course no need to anything big just Gina try small scale at first maybe one method a month(..if I even have the time). But good things come to those who wait! Right?

And yes swim and his best friend had very good success with a batch carb got very white crystals and a nice but of goo (some of which was infused into cannabis the rest hardened and will probably be dissolved soon) a very successful batch of marble was just completed as well but has yet to bee put to the test (or rather put me to the test)

Can you Point me in the direction of brewing the vine..or can you lend some info/advice? Is it as simple as boiling slowly for an hour or so..any additive suggestions for taste?

As for the salvia that is not something to just "get fucked up on" though you undoubted can hah and not in a good way! I know she's powerful..she is quite mysterious...I will one day meet her again but probaberly not any time soon..

Thanks again for the advice!

 

[Chan]

You're welcome!

Start here and root around/UTSE. It's not complicated, but there are lots of different opinions. Get the caapi as finely shredded/powdered as you can, is the main thing. IME, it tastes best warm. So long as it's not super-concentrated, shouldn't taste too bad, but be aware that purging tends to disproportionately affect beginners. I reckon that's to do with getting rid of whatever crap your system may have accumulated to date, but that's just speculation on my part.

The other route, is to extract the harmalas from the vine (UTSE) which will give you a smoalkable concentrate. It's fairly easy as extractions go. Much less chance of purging, but you need to get the dosage right... Have a look around, see what appeals.

Many people would caution against using (fresh) cannabis in these blends, as it can dull or even darken the overall experience. Exhausted material (eg. already vaped) is OK, but there are still better things to use, mullein being one of the best, as it has a really "spongy" absorbent texture and high surface area, with next to no psychoactivity of it's own..

Finally, there are always other opinions...

 

[furhenden]

Thank you for your reply and suggestions/help.. is the added harmalas necessary on the 10x caapi leaves or is that just personal preference?

I don't think it is necessary, but it is the only way I have done it, so I can't vouch for the actual effectiveness of the "10x caapi leaf" on its own.

After my most recent batch, which was on just plain wild harvested mullein leaf, I don't think I will go back to caapi leaf.

 

[fibfab3301]

thanks again you guys!

interesting note about the fresh cannabis Chan.. i will definitely take that to heart (i can kinda of see that now that you mention it) i certainly plan obtaining some mullein, as ive seen it mentioned all through out the threads many many times.

one more (noobish) question: harmalas, harmaline, and THH? whats the difference and which one do i "really" want/need? I was reading the THH- holy grail thread but if anyone can further explain its glory i would appreciate it. but what ever does the trick is fine by me no need to get too fancy

thanks again folks!

 

[Chan]

Don't mention it.

Caapi's what you need, for now, as it contains all 3 of those harmala compounds (and traces of several more): perfectly blended by Mother Nature for your comfort and enjoyment :thumb_up:

 

[fibfab3301]

Don't mention it.

Caapi's what you need, for now, as it contains all 3 of those harmala compounds (and traces of several more): perfectly blended by Mother Nature for your comfort and enjoyment :thumb_up:

Mama always knows best!

 

[fibfab3301]

okay so heres the plan (thus far).

I have purchased "makena red" vine.

i will be doing gibran2's "easy caapi vine alkaloid extraction" to determine the % of alkaloid content.

From there with the information gained, and as to gain a better/truer understanding of the vine itself, I will then (find time to) brew/prepare an appropriate sized dose (2 actually..one to ingest and the other to then extract to see how much im actually ingesting via the brew... I believe that is what i have been reading a lot of people doing to get a clearer idea of how much they are actually getting..if i am wrong on this please let me know as some of the talk in the different brewing threads is a little confusing to me)

the aforementioned confusion also leads me to a few more questions hopefully some of you can easily clarify for me.. In reading the vine only Aya brews i see many people talking about brewing for 3 hours 3 times and then reducing down.. I then see people talking about boiling and letting sit for a day or even two... any preference anyone?

From there, the next trial I will undergo will be a 10x caapi leaf extract/enhancement. (with and without the addition of extracted caapi alkaloids).

Once I have a nice understanding of the caapi alkaloids and the vine itself i will begin to make my changa

if anyone else has any advice/criticism/suggestions they are all greatly welcomed and appreciated! (the more you (i) know!)

 

[ijahdan]

Ive also been slowly experimenting with changa, enhanced leaf, extracted harmalas and caapi only brews over the past year or two.

I found oral harmalas/caapi to be much more powerful and obviously longer lasting than smoked or sublingual. More visionary. More purge inducing too, although I had one experience with 100g yellow vine and just a small amount of admixture (25g chacruna) where I didnt purge at all. Kept being told by a kind of 'inner voice' that it's 'all about the vine'...

Smoking wise, I started off making enhanced mint leaf, which worked, but burned too hot and fast and probably burned up some of the goodness. Tried mullein but didnt really like the taste. Blue lotus was nice. Eventually tried caapi leaf and was surprised by how nice it was to smoke. I used plain caapi leaf in a 1:1 ratio and it worked well, although I didnt notice any harmala effect.

Next I did a methanol soak on 10g caapi leaf for a month and evapped onto 1g to give a 10x leaf. This was very sticky but smoked well. Again, didnt get much harmala action when smoked solo, so when I used it for changa I added about 300mg of extracted harmalas as well as 1g dmt. Unfortunately this ended up way too sticky. It was hard to light and tasted harsh. For this reason I will stick to just plain leaf, harmalas and dmt in the future, or even just enhanced plain leaf with harmalas taken by another route.

Sublingual harmalas work very well and last somewhere between smoked and oral. There are some threads about this already. I now prefer sublingual harmalas followed by smoking enhanced leaf, instead of changa. It can also be good to have enhanced leaf for taking to festivals etc, where people who might wish to partake have also been ingesting other substances which dont go well with the harmalas in changa...

Brewing wise, Ive found that to make a good caapi brew takes a lot of time and fuel. 3×3 boils seems to be the standard method, so it makes sense to brew a large amount at a time and then store excess in the freezer for later drinking/extraction sessions.

Non acidified caapi brews have imo a much better taste and cause less nausea, but addition of acid, ie vinegar, does seem to pull more alkaloids, so what I do now is boil the whole lot without acid (3 times), reserve what I want for drinking, (say half of it) then boil the vine again with vinegar added to extract the last bit and use this, along with the non acidified half I have left to do a harmala extraction on. Gibrans is easy and works well.

Dont be surprised if you get a very low percentage from the vine. 1% is the most Ive ever had. This makes sublingual use more economical than oral as you only need about a tenth of the amount.

Anyway, thats about all I can say from my own experience. Its been fun experimenting. Hope you enjoy yourself too.

 

[fibfab3301]

Ive also been slowly experimenting with changa, enhanced leaf, extracted harmalas and caapi only brews over the past year or two.


Brewing wise, Ive found that to make a good caapi brew takes a lot of time and fuel. 3×3 boils seems to be the standard method, so it makes sense to brew a large amount at a time and then store excess in the freezer for later drinking/extraction sessions.

Non acidified caapi brews have imo a much better taste and cause less nausea, but addition of acid, ie vinegar, does seem to pull more alkaloids, so what I do now is boil the whole lot without acid (3 times), reserve what I want for drinking, (say half of it) then boil the vine again with vinegar added to extract the last bit and use this, along with the non acidified half I have left to do a harmala extraction on. Gibrans is easy and works well.

Dont be surprised if you get a very low percentage from the vine. 1% is the most Ive ever had. This makes sublingual use more economical than oral as you only need about a tenth of the amount.

Anyway, thats about all I can say from my own experience. Its been fun experimenting. Hope you enjoy yourself too.

Thank you very much for your reply and input ijahadan! I am very excited! i got my list and of procedures to perform and the vine and leaves should be arriving today! I like your suggestion about acidifying at the end i will surely give that a try.. Just a few questions on your boiling/brewing technique.. how much water is added? (lets say your boiling 100g vine) is it just enough to cover or do we want more? after the three boils what volume is this reduced down to?

the jury still seems to be out on this 10x caapi leaf but i feel i am reading more positive reviews than negative so I'm going to give it a shot!

Thanks again! cant wait to get started! ill be starting my 10x caapi leaf today by way of dorges tek with 90grams leaf and 10 grams vine infused onto 10grams of caapi leaf. and on saturday i will be performing gibran2s easy caapi alkaloid extraction.

Ill report back with my findings if anyone is interested!

 

[ijahdan]

I use about twice as much water as caapi by volume. Thats with shredded vine. Then filter each boil through muslin or old tee shirt into another pot for reducing. 100g I would reduce to about a glassful. There will be lots of sediment forming at this concentration but you shouldnt filter or decant this as it contains lots of harmalas too. It's really just bits of brew solidifying.

 

[fibfab3301]

Thanks for in the input again ijahdan!

so i got some results for those who are interested! (which has again led me to a few more questions)

Just more or less finished my first "easy caapi alkaloid extraction" (via gibran2 tek) using 64 grams of "Makena Red" vine (each vine cutting is about 1" in diameter) instead of using fumaric acid i used approx 25ml 5% distilled white vinegar. my first pull has evaporated and i have collected the goodies, and the second pull that as left to sit over night has just been poured off in the tray to evaporate.

So far my yield was much much smaller than what ive been reading in different threads (certainly lower than gibran2s black vine) right now the first pull yielded a small 0.217g (i was expecting more when seeing it all collected in the jar but it turns out this little guys are extremely light! a picture of the yield will be attached at the end of the post..but before that some questions must be addressed

are the extracted alkaloids usually very light in weight?
ive been reading about people taking between 50-300mg of extracted harmalas (granted, im not exactly sure wether this is sublingually or encapsulated or in a tea) but if this is to be the case sublingually this seems like an extremely large amount of substance to hold under ones tongue... or even freebase/put on top of some enhanced leaf for that matter...could an error my the process lead to such small/light end result?

I feel that the bark may not have been shredded and possibly acidified enough in the begging boiling stages...could vinegar (or low acidification) lead to a lower yield?

also i found that i needed about 6g of lye as opposed to the 5 grams in the solution to precipitate the alkaloids...is this due to low acidity?

or it could just be a low content vine
I still have some 200+ grams of vine which i plan to work with ASAP..this time i will try to get my hands on some fumaric acid and see if that makes a difference! thanks again to everyone whos been chiming in and helping me out! and thanks to everyone else looking and to all those who posted the teks before my time happy sunday yall!

any input is always accepted !


many thanks again


______________________________________________________

newest update: 0.302g was retrieved from the 2nd pull that settle over night.. i am very happily and pleasantly surprised! this puts the total yield thus far at 0.519g and i still have smaller pie tray with a smaller amount still evaporating.

 

[some one]

SO my first question is: WHAT KIND OF VINE AND HOW BIG?

Red? Yellow? Black? Ive heard much talk of yellow and black. but can anyone specify the differences or which one is more often preferred? ive also read that the vine needs to at least the width of a finger.. is this true? (i would think it to be so)

Ive also been reading alot that smoking the vine will not do anything and others swear that it will.. if it does work which i hope and believe it does) about how much stronger does the addition/presence of the vine and MAOI make the experience and how much longer does it extend the time of the experience? While i appreciated reading the Aya vs. Changa thread I have never drank ayahuasca so I can not fully understand (i guess thats the appropriate word) the comparison given.. How different is it from just normal freebase or infused cannabis?

Secondly, I plan on infusing my leaf/plant mixture by way of a solvent..WHAT SOLVENT WORKS BEST?

acetone? alcohol? any others?

Should be answered here: The Essential DMT Guide - DMT Discussion - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

 

[ijahdan]

Firstly Ive got to say 'NO VENDOR TALK ALLOWED!' Im pretty sure this applies to caapi copy and caapi vine for that matter, even though harmalas are legal in many countries.

Extracting your own is cheaper and more interesting anyway, and youve already done that successfully.

Ive found that patience is the key to Gibrans tek. The alks take ages to settle. I just wait 24 hours for each precipitation and after each wash of the final product. Only a few minutes actual work each day. It is important to wash the product 4 times to remove excess NaOH and bring the pH down.

I was also surprised how light the powder was. Looked like a lot more in the jar.

50mg sublingual works well. You can split it into two tonguefuls, 10 minutes apart. Orally, 200-250 seems to be what most people go for.

 

[fibfab3301]

Firstly Ive got to say 'NO VENDOR TALK ALLOWED!' Im pretty sure this applies to caapi copy and caapi vine for that matter, even though harmalas are legal in many countries.

Extracting your own is cheaper and more interesting anyway, and youve already done that successfully.

Ive found that patience is the key to Gibrans tek. The alks take ages to settle. I just wait 24 hours for each precipitation and after each wash of the final product. Only a few minutes actual work each day. It is important to wash the product 4 times to remove excess NaOH and bring the pH down.

I was also surprised how light the powder was. Looked like a lot more in the jar.

50mg sublingual works well. You can split it into two tonguefuls, 10 minutes apart. Orally, 200-250 seems to be what most people go for.

Thank you for the heads up ijahdan.. sorry for that..post edited to fit rule

Yes i believe i washed it at least 5 times being that i had what seemed to be a bit more lye than the recipe called for.

is the trace amounts of lye a worry if it is to be dissolve and infused onto leaves (will this remove any traces of lye..should there be any left) can smoking any residual lye be harmful (im sure the answer to be yes?) or is it more of a concern if you plan on taking the extract orally (as to avoid burning your insides)

@some one.. thank you for that.. i was reading that a few days ago.. most of the question in the first part of the thread have been figured out now i just had a few questions regarding my extract... everything seems to be on course so far! thanks again for everyones help and patience

 

[ijahdan]

Should be fine after 5 washes. You could always test the pH (around 8 I think is ok). Lye isnt really poisonous, just very strongly alkaline, and its vapourisation point is much higher than changa.