Caapi vs Syrian Rue. How and Why are they different? Are they really different at all?

[Apoc]

HELLO! I was hoping someone could answer why there is a difference between taking syrian rue vs caapi. The reason I ask is because people seem to claim that caapi is far superior to syrian rue. I've read some people say that you get looping thoughts with rue. Caapi is like gentle and pretty. But I don't understand why this is the case, and here's why......

Don't both rue and caapi contain the same active chemcals? Harmine and harmaline. Which contains more harmaline? OK, then people say caapi contains a different maoi called THH, and this for some reason translates to a better trip. My question is this... why does it matter which maoi you take? I thought the only reason an maoi is taken is so that it will prevent dmt from getting broken down in your system before the dmt reaches your brain. Thus, it's not the maoi that has anything to do with your trip, it's the dmt, and the maoi merely prevents dmt from being destroyed before it takes effect. Therefore, maoi is like a linebacker that prevents the offense (mao) from getting to your dmt (the football). But it's the football that goes to the endzone (your brain). It's the football that has the effect on the brain, not the linebacker. Therefore, it doesn't matter what maoi you take, as long as it prevents dmt from getting destroyed. Harmaline might be a big linebacker, and thh a small linebacker, but as long as they stop the offence, it doesn't matter because the dmt is going to do its job on the brain either way. That's what I thought anyway.

So, why does it matter if the maoi you take is harmaline, harmine, thh, or prescription? How does the maoi translate in to an experiene of a different trip? Thanks.

 

[Ginkgo]

The harmala-alkaloids do not only acts as MAOIs, they are also hallucinogenic entheogens at their own. The effect you get from Ayahuasca/Pharmahuasca is a combination effect of DMT and the harmala-alkaloids.

You are right that most people find THH to have the best effects of all the harmala-alkaloids. Syrian rue lacks this compound, and it is also highly variable in the ratios of the other compounds. Further it does contain some sort of toxins that may give nausea and other physical discomfort.

If you extract the alkaloids from syrian rue properly, you will not experience such discomfort. But because it doesn't have THH it will not feel much like true Ayahuasca. The THH is vital to the Ayahuasca experience, it provides a much smoother and more grounded feeling (thus a more grounded experience).

I hope this cleared some things up.

 

[jamie]

Caapi or rue alone ca give full on immersive visions, the idea that they are used only to activate DMT is a myth..Ive drank brews that were very powerful and had only caapi and no DMT at all, complete with detailed visions.

Caapi contain mostly harmine and THH, with littel harmaline, rue contains more harmaline and also harmine, and usually no THH..rue is also more toxic.

Both are woderful teachers, but with very diff voices.

 

[Apoc]

The harmala-alkaloids do not only acts as MAOIs, they are also hallucinogenic entheogens at their own. The effect you get from Ayahuasca/Pharmahuasca is a combination effect of DMT and the harmala-alkaloids.

K...... does anyone know exactly how the combination of maoi's affects the dmt? People say that the harmaloids are psychoactive on their own. Maybe, but if I take 3g of syrian rue on its own, I don't experience any physical or psychological effects at all. But if I take 3g syrian rue with 50g dmt, there is awesomeness. Are people saying that the affect of the harmaloids themselves affect trip? Or the harmaloids affect the dmt, which in turn affect the trip?

Cause if the case is that the harmaloids themselves affect the trip, again, I point out that 3g syrian rue on its own has no effect at all. Well, I guess I'll just have to find out for myself, but I'm curious if the specific maois somehow bind with dmt to create a different chemical that has some different effect on the brain.

 

[69ron]

People with experience will tell you YES, it does affect the trip in a pretty big way. Even if you activate the DMT with amounts of caapi or rue that are on their own seemingly inactive, they still produce a different experience. THH is a weak SSRI and a weak MAOI. Rue contains no SSRI's as far as I'm aware. Harmaline is more of a sedative than THH or harmine. It's also more stoning, or more marijuana-like. It's almost the opposite of THH.

Because caapi contains a weak SSRI, that alone is going to make the experience different.

There are also other compounds present in these other than the three we mentioned. They also affect it. Whole rue is quite unlike a mix of harmine and harmaline, it contains a lot of other actives which quite a bit of people don't seem to like much.

 

[q21q21]

SWIM can say for sure that whether you take caapi, rue or pure harmine, harmaline or THH the experience will be much different.

While he hasn't experienced all of them with DMT he has experienced all of them alone and they are very different.

While at a lower dose of any of them can make them seem pretty similar, when the dose gets higher and when they are combined with DMT the differences become obvious albeit not always definable.

A few examples:
SWIM has taken rue alkaloids and rue brew about a dozen or more times and NEVER got any visuals or tracers at all.
He took 150mg of mostly jungle DMT and 160mg rue alkaloids and had the strongest and loopiest trip of his life.

SWIM has taken caapi brew alone twice and with shrooms once, he has taken it with DMT but a sub-visionary dose.
Alone he had colorful though not too strong CEVs and slight tracers.
With the shrooms it increased CEVs and OEVs on 2.0g to much more than on 4.25g of similar strength.

THH even at mild doses produces enhanced colors, slight tracers and slight stimulation (very nice in changa!)
SWIM has only experienced THH with a sub-visionary dose of DMT.

Harmine is very intersting. It is a large component of caapi and rue.
200mg of harmine (extracted from rue) alone produced STRONG mental effects, slight OEVS and pretty strong CEVs.
SWIM has yet to try harmine with DMT

Harmaline is 2x more powerful than the others and quite sedating.
Harmaline seems to create large changes in the dream state as does rue. (caapi nor harmine does for SWIM)
SWIM hasn't experimented too much with pure harmine.


Hope that helps!

 

[rOm]

K...... does anyone know exactly how the combination of maoi's affects the dmt? People say that the harmaloids are psychoactive on their own. Maybe, but if I take 3g of syrian rue on its own, I don't experience any physical or psychological effects at all. But if I take 3g syrian rue with 50g dmt, there is awesomeness. Are people saying that the affect of the harmaloids themselves affect trip? Or the harmaloids affect the dmt, which in turn affect the trip?

Cause if the case is that the harmaloids themselves affect the trip, again, I point out that 3g syrian rue on its own has no effect at all. Well, I guess I'll just have to find out for myself, but I'm curious if the specific maois somehow bind with dmt to create a different chemical that has some different effect on the brain.

It is more a synergy between the plants than just caapi allowing Dmt to express it self. If you read what fractal just wrote, he explains you that auahuasca is the vine brew. Viridis, chacruna, chaliponga are admixtures which synergizes with Caapi, but Caapi is already an hallucinogen on its own.
There are plenty of people taht like to drink Caapi only brew. It is proàbably less visual tahn with admixtures but it is a very valuable drink which is a strong medecine.
We can call ayahuasca a Caapi only brew.

 

[Apoc]

Very interesting. Is caapi the only plant that has thh? Can extractions be done for thh? As far as I know, thh is legal everywhere, so this might be a really good one to possess.

 

[rOm]

Caapi is the only plant I know of that contain THH. Extractions can be made but we don't have any working at the moment as far as I know.
You can buy THH from one supplier (check out THH in hte supplier section) or buy caapi and brew it. There is a very informative sticky on ayahuasca section and check out also the THP (the herbal percolation extraction) which explain how to make easily warm water extraction of caapi.

 

[Apoc]

Thanks for that! Anyone have thoughts on why the different colors of caapi are supposedly different? Does white merely have less harmine than black? Or is there something else going on with the colors?

 

[joebono]

This is a great question, fnog9, something that I have been thinking about as well.

I have taken syrian rue, Caapi Copy, THH, brewed caapi, caapi extract, and purified syrian rue harmalas. I guess the difficulty in gauging each one's characteristics is the fact that each oral DMT trip is so damn different from the previous one. Another problem with such subjective conjecture is that my oral trips have evolved so much over the past year and a half. What I experience now compared to my first few trips almost seem like I am on a different drug. The qualities, content, and character of my current DMT experience simply bear no relation previous trips. I can't really blame it on the harmalas because two trips with the same dose of caapi can be totally brand new experiences.

With that being said, I do have some opinions when trying to take a broad perspective on the issue. Keep in mind, I may just be bullshitting myself. In general I have felt that my best trips were working with brewed caapi or caapi extract. They seemed more colorful, dreamy, and euphoric. My rue trips can be a bit harsher and THH was coldly analytical and I don't like it. Your best option is to try a few of them and see for yourself. It's damn fun exploring how to tweak the DMT experience to see what else this nutty molecule can throw at you.

 

[lyserge]

Wow, great advice here from all. I know very little about the chemistry of these plants, especially compared with the other members, but have found that the brews on their own give a good idea of the character of Rue and Caapi. In sufficient quantities, both brews will yield visionary experiences and both brews will make you puke. I've found that Rue feels more toxic, and the puke from it does not seem very cleansing; it's quite harsh and sickening. On the other hand Caapi seems to be more of a purgative; in fact many native users in S. America use Caapi/ayahuasca primarily as purgatives (to clean out toxins built up from eating meat) and only secondarily as vision-producing plants. Caapi on its own seems to me quite soft and luxurious, like being guided by your gentle grandmother through lush meadows under the shining sun. Rue on its own seems to me much harsher, like being guided through a dark jungle by a ferocious but wise jaguar. When combined with vaporized DMT, these materials seem to lend their own unique qualities to the interface. My experience concurs with what you've stated, fnog9; I'd be interested to hear of your experience with the two.

I've also tried both Caapi and Rue with different varieties of psilocybin mushrooms. With both DMT and psilocybin/psilocin/other components of the mushrooms, the Caapi and Rue seem to act primarily as guiding hands and potentiators of the tryptamines in question. Such combinations seem to yield the same experience (though potentiated) viewed through different lenses, if you will.

 

[acolon_5]

Huge difference

1) you cannot take visionairy doses of rue without having extreme body load, and a host of other unpleasant effects. Unless you extract the harmine and harmaline via Manske extaction you are getting some other very nasty alkaloids in you.

2) Caapi doesn't seem to have a limit like rue does, sure you can overdo it, many have, and it's unpleasant when you do overdo it. However, you can have full visions with JUST Caapi. I've not heard of that with rue (as more than 4-5g of rue starts feeling toxic and nasty...4-5g isn't enough for visions).


And in Ayahuasca is makes a world of difference. THH is part of it I think, but I have a feeling there are other actives in Ayahuasca that have not yet been discovered. Maybe they are not alkaloids, but are active chemicals that synergize with the MAOI's in Caapi. I don't know and am only hypothesising.

To me, Caapi is far superior to rue (and rue extracts). Rue feels very masculine while Caapi has a feminine spirit. Surprisingly I'm not really into the new age stuff, but there is something about Caapi that is special.

 

[Apoc]

So, acolon, you would say that caapi is better than harmine extract with thh extract?

 

[69ron]

fnog9, keep in mind that some people actually prefer rue over caapi. While a lot of people do like caapi, it’s still a personal thing. SWIM doesn’t like the purge of whole caapi. He doesn’t like harmaline much either. He prefers THH, and doesn’t care much for the various other extracts or mixes of extracts. Some people don’t like THH. It all depends on what a particular person likes. They are all different. A mix of harmaline + harmine is not the same as any other mix, and is not the same as rue. A mix of caapi alkaloids is not completely the same as whole caapi or harmine + THH. All of the caapi extracts out there that SWIM has tried have slightly different effects. All batches of caapi also vary. Same is true for rue.

Anyway, my point is, personal preference is highly variable. While most people seem to prefer caapi, there are those who prefer rue.

SWIM doesn’t like the purge effect of whole caapi at all. For him, whole caapi feels quite toxic. If all he had was caapi and rue to choose from, he would use rue. Rue feels less toxic to SWIM than caapi, which is contrary to what others are saying here.

Also, SWIM greatly prefers chacruna or chaliponga over mimosa. He finds whole mimosa to feel very toxic and avoids it. In other words, SWIM would find a mix of rue + chacruna to be far less toxic feeling that caapi + mimosa.

Each person is different. Don’t rely on one person’s point of view on which combination of these things is “best”. There is no such thing as one that is “best”.

 

[RhythmSpring]

Sorry to bump an old thread, but people are saying that Syrian rue doesn't contain any THH, but doesn't simmering it for a while convert some of the harmaline into THH?

 

[syberdelic]

Sorry to bump an old thread, but people are saying that Syrian rue doesn't contain any THH, but doesn't simmering it for a while convert some of the harmaline into THH?

Theoretically, there is some truth to this but I'm not sure it has been proven yet. When I have more time, I still want to test this.

 

[Jees]

...Theoretically, there is some truth to this...

What theory are you referring at please? Thank you.
The only thing I know of is this (and a bunch of further speculations in various threads that actually stem from this source). Just wondering maybe you have other/better indications?

 

[Jees]

Anyway Syberdelic, please go trough the search + posts rule
THH ascorbic acid
some efforts have been done before, especially Mindlusion.
I'd sure welcome your attempts but they should at least have some kind of verification method applied to it, to see a yes or no, both answers are a valuable lesson.
:thumb_up:

 

[dreamer042]

When caapi brew is tested it generally has much higher amounts of THH than when caapi vine itself is tested. It would appear that THH is being created via the reduction of harmine/harmaline in the process of prolonged boiling.

moar info: Conversion of Harmine->Harmaline->THH by simple boiling (and storage?) - DMT Discussion - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

Theoretically if you boil rue for 10 hours the way you do caapi, it should contain moar THH than caapi. The evidence for this has not yet been gathered, but it's an easy enough test to do with a TLC kit. I suspect there is enough interest we could get an energy control test on it as well if someone takes the time to prepare and submit a sample.