Caffeine in the raw form

[TheSt0rm]

I have a theory or rather a belief that truly raw forms of caffeine have virtually none of the negative effects of the heat processed forms of caffeine. But the problem is it's hard to find it in it's truly raw state unless you cultivate the plants yourself.

E.g. Coffee needs to be toasted. It's a seed so, and all seeds to consume raw it's preferable to at least germinate them first before consuming. All seed forms of caffeine should be. So that leaves the holly plant sources of caffeine to be the easiest form of caffeine to consume in their raw state.

I have tried truly raw yerba mate which was just dried at about 100.4 degrees F, no flash pastuerization. Then cut like traditional chimarrao from brazil and had multiple infusions.

I had a bit of regular yerba mate followed by the raw kind later on to see the effects of it. there was much of a difference. The raw yerba mate had no acidity at all, and it was not really as much of a burnout for my adrenals. In fact, I think a lot of the beneficial nutrients being in their highly absorbable natural/raw and organic state lead to the better absorption and utilization of the nutrients. Not only that, since it has active enzymes I believe they digest better not only those same nutrients but also the xanthines present in yerba mate. So, the xanthines, in a non-acidic form, plus the enzymes, plus the organic raw forms of the other nutritional compounds and it makes it a well balanced form of caffeine with virtually no side effects. And possibly less of a tolerance is built up from it as well.

I've suffered quite a bit of depletion from it like adrenal burnout, etc. and this really proved to be different. The next day I was not feeling as bad as other days, less tired, more energetic. I didn't feel like i was still trying to get rid of the waste xanthines.

So all in all I believe the raw forms of caffeine are superior to the non-raw forms.

 

[VoidTraveler]

Do you have any scientific evidence to back up your beliefs or this is belief based on purely your on experiences?

 

[jamie]

this does not make any sense. Caffine is caffine..there is not other form.

I can guarantee that raw cacao rich in xanthines definatly can make some people feel sketchy at a certain dose.

Heating a coffee bean to roast it does not change the form of the caffine at all. It might change other components of the beans, but not the caffine itself..otherwise it would not be caffine.

Trust me I have tried many of these xanthine containing plants raw, as I was a raw foodest for a couple years..I did not notice that the caffine did not burn me out any less.

If you suffer with adrenal insufficiency(which is a metabolic energy disorder) you might want to just cut out all of the caffine altogether. Raw yerba mate wont make any difference..if it does it is due to the caffine not actaully being too soluble in the cooler water. Again caffine is caffine and is addictive and can burn you out. There is no such thing as a "raw" form.

 

[TheSt0rm]

True caffiene is caffeine. But I'm not talking about Only caffeine. More specifically I'm talking about those sources of caffeine, the plants. So i think that with some plants that can be eaten raw, it's more beneficial to. You dont want to isolate caffeine or even a "raw form" of caffeine. Because that "raw form" is actually the entire plant as a 'whole substance.' What I meant tho are that these plants if you consume them in the raw state they will have benefits coming from the other compounds which can counteract negative effects of isolated "caffeine". yerba mate is one of those sources of caffeine in which the whole product is better than taking caffeine from coffee or pure extracts of caffeine. What vitamins and minerals come in roasted coffee? Not that much really, tea has some nutrients as well.

As far as I see these teas are usually prepared by heat for various reasons of course, being that sometimes you need to boil the water, sometimes you are simply accustomed to the tradition of cooking. But you can make cold infusions of shade raw, dried and/or aged yerba mate. Just like with guayusa, or even the cassina/vomitoria.

 

[jamie]

sure, I just dont buy it. Lots of raw foodests are into green (raw) coffee beans. Never seemed different to me other than the taste.

People say the same thing all the time about how great their raw cacao is..yet there is no such thing as raw cacao sold in stores. I know because I had a business selling the stuff that I had to source from a supplier in south america that could prove it was raw..99% of the "raw cacao" out there is not raw at all when you actaully look into how it is processed yet people continue to rave about the difference they feel. More likely is that they are consuming the whole bean, which while not raw is still a whole food rather than milk chocolate.

You should be getting enough minerals in your diet to compensate anyway..there is no way you should need what minerals might be in a cup of coffee to deal with the caffine..a balanced diet should already provide that.

Similar to how you cant find raw cashews in the store unless they are specifically labled "cold cracked" which is extremely hard to find. You can find "raw cashews" but those are not really raw yet people eat them and then go on about how great it was due to them being raw.

 

[benzyme]

caffeine is caffeine is caffeine.
heat isn't going to change the conformation of the molecule, there are are no stereocenters
nor cis-trans conformations. all things being equal (i.e. no other alkaloids present), there's no difference between raw caffeine vs. extracted caffeine, which brewed coffee is.. however, coffee has a lot of tannic acid.

 

[TheSt0rm]

sure, I just dont buy it. Lots of raw foodests are into green (raw) coffee beans. Never seemed different to me other than the taste.

People say the same thing all the time about how great their raw cacao is..yet there is no such thing as raw cacao sold in stores. I know because I had a business selling the stuff that I had to source from a supplier in south america that could prove it was raw..99% of the "raw cacao" out there is not raw at all when you actaully look into how it is processed yet people continue to rave about the difference they feel. More likely is that they are consuming the whole bean, which while not raw is still a whole food rather than milk chocolate.

You should be getting enough minerals in your diet to compensate anyway..there is no way you should need what minerals might be in a cup of coffee to deal with the caffine..a balanced diet should already provide that.

Similar to how you cant find raw cashews in the store unless they are specifically labled "cold cracked" which is extremely hard to find. You can find "raw cashews" but those are not really raw yet people eat them and then go on about how great it was due to them being raw.

Actually I've never heard of truly raw coffee being used, even the green coffee supplements are not cold extracts of coffee, just "green" coffee. I think most if not all still do go through a heat process.

SAme as cacao, I know there is hardly any true "raw" cacao. I bought a cacao fruit and I saw the beans as purple. I sprouted them for some time.. should have sprouted it longer but I didn't have time to let it wait much longer, and I ate it. It was still with lots of tannic acid. But the feeling of the cacao high was much different. There are supposedly sold raw yet still (low temp) fermented (not purple) cacao but they're not also sprouted.

It's very hard to find truly raw sources of caffeine. At least in the states. The source of caffeine best seems to come from holly and tea plants but I'm not sure if the tea can be made raw like the holly.

It is so rare I can doubt anyone that has replied has really used raw forms of caffeine to really compare what it's like to heat processed forms of caffeine.

 

[TheSt0rm]

sure, I just dont buy it. Lots of raw foodests are into green (raw) coffee beans. Never seemed different to me other than the taste.

People say the same thing all the time about how great their raw cacao is..yet there is no such thing as raw cacao sold in stores. I know because I had a business selling the stuff that I had to source from a supplier in south america that could prove it was raw..99% of the "raw cacao" out there is not raw at all when you actaully look into how it is processed yet people continue to rave about the difference they feel. More likely is that they are consuming the whole bean, which while not raw is still a whole food rather than milk chocolate.

You should be getting enough minerals in your diet to compensate anyway..there is no way you should need what minerals might be in a cup of coffee to deal with the caffine..a balanced diet should already provide that.

Similar to how you cant find raw cashews in the store unless they are specifically labled "cold cracked" which is extremely hard to find. You can find "raw cashews" but those are not really raw yet people eat them and then go on about how great it was due to them being raw.

Actually I've never heard of truly raw coffee being used, even the green coffee supplements are not cold extracts of coffee, just "green" coffee. I think most if not all still do go through a heat process.

SAme as cacao, I know there is hardly any true "raw" cacao. I bought a cacao fruit and I saw the beans as purple. I sprouted them for some time.. should have sprouted it longer but I didn't have time to let it wait much longer, and I ate it. It was still with lots of tannic acid. But the feeling of the cacao high was much different. There are supposedly sold raw yet still (low temp) fermented (not purple) cacao but they're not also sprouted.

It's very hard to find truly raw sources of caffeine. At least in the states. The source of caffeine best seems to come from holly and tea plants but I'm not sure if the tea can be made raw like the holly.

It is so rare I can doubt anyone that has replied has really used raw forms of caffeine to really compare what it's like to heat processed forms of caffeine.

they each (raw vs not raw) have their own effect, desirable or undesirable. i just kno it's better to have the occasional warmed/prepared product for a specific (maybe for medicinal) effect but not all the time.

 

[TheSt0rm]

sure, I just dont buy it. Lots of raw foodests are into green (raw) coffee beans. Never seemed different to me other than the taste.

People say the same thing all the time about how great their raw cacao is..yet there is no such thing as raw cacao sold in stores. I know because I had a business selling the stuff that I had to source from a supplier in south america that could prove it was raw..99% of the "raw cacao" out there is not raw at all when you actaully look into how it is processed yet people continue to rave about the difference they feel. More likely is that they are consuming the whole bean, which while not raw is still a whole food rather than milk chocolate.

You should be getting enough minerals in your diet to compensate anyway..there is no way you should need what minerals might be in a cup of coffee to deal with the caffine..a balanced diet should already provide that.

Similar to how you cant find raw cashews in the store unless they are specifically labled "cold cracked" which is extremely hard to find. You can find "raw cashews" but those are not really raw yet people eat them and then go on about how great it was due to them being raw.

Actually I've never heard of truly raw coffee being used, even the green coffee supplements are not cold extracts of coffee, just "green" coffee. I think most if not all still do go through a heat process.

SAme as cacao, I know there is hardly any true "raw" cacao. I bought a cacao fruit and I saw the beans as purple. I sprouted them for some time.. should have sprouted it longer but I didn't have time to let it wait much longer, and I ate it. It was still with lots of tannic acid. But the feeling of the cacao high was much different. There are supposedly sold raw yet still (low temp) fermented (not purple) cacao but they're not also sprouted.

It's very hard to find truly raw sources of caffeine. At least in the states. The source of caffeine best seems to come from holly and tea plants but I'm not sure if the tea can be made raw like the holly.

It is so rare I can doubt anyone that has replied has really used raw forms of caffeine to really compare what it's like to heat processed forms of caffeine.

I already said its not all just about the caffeine but a whole live plant organism.

 

[jamie]

"It is so rare I can doubt anyone that has replied has really used raw forms of caffeine to really compare what it's like to heat processed forms of caffeine."

I have..Like I said I had a business selling raw chocolate that was made the the only beans on the market that are certified and proven raw. They are purple and the company does not process with any heat at all like other people to sell "raw cacao". I had kilos of the stuff and still have at least 6 pounds of the beans here.

IME the main difference I experience is between this cacao and the powdered "camino" cacao..other "raw" cacao from whole foods that is heated and def not purple still gives similar effects to the stuff I have here..but the camino and similar powders that have the oils from the beans removed feels different to me and makes me feel sketchier..I dunno why this is..maybe its that the oils help it digest in the body and without them they bother the digestive tract more..I cant really say but this has been my experience with the stuff.

I have often taken enough of these raw cacao beans to trip. I know someone who has worked with the "chocolate shaman" named Keith (just google him) in south america and at shamanic doses like that it def is entheogenic but I dont hallucinate..

Now I tried to dose like that the camino stuff once and I got so sick and dizzy that I could not enjoy the experience and purged as if I had drunk ayahuasca only more unpleasant..so I definatly avoid any of these powders that have been seperated from the oils..whole beans are better in that way. This is just my experience though.

 

[jamie]

The main reason behind sprouting raw nuts and seeds, which is better in my opinion and experience than not doing so, is that raw nuts and seeds when unsprouted contain compounds that basically work against enzymes..they are like anti-nutrients. This would not apply to something like, say yerba mate..

One of the main things raw food has going for it is that it contains bio-photons..this is something that truely raw food contains..bio-photons have a role in cellular communications etc..this aspect is lost as soon as you dry anything though..so even dry yerba mate that was never exposed to heat is not truely raw or a whole living food.

The enzyme thing is also not really that legit..many of these enzymes that people go on about in raw food are deactivated in the stomche via hcl acid..this is why it is best to chew your food..the bulk of your enzymes for digestion are in your saliva already.

 

[TheSt0rm]

The main reason behind sprouting raw nuts and seeds, which is better in my opinion and experience than not doing so, is that raw nuts and seeds when unsprouted contain compounds that basically work against enzymes..they are like anti-nutrients. This would not apply to something like, say yerba mate..

One of the main things raw food has going for it is that it contains bio-photons..this is something that truely raw food contains..bio-photons have a role in cellular communications etc..this aspect is lost as soon as you dry anything though..so even dry yerba mate that was never exposed to heat is not truely raw or a whole living food.

The enzyme thing is also not really that legit..many of these enzymes that people go on about in raw food are deactivated in the stomche via hcl acid..this is why it is best to chew your food..the bulk of your enzymes for digestion are in your saliva already.

You're right, the enzyme theory is just a theory. I do know that the raw forms of yerba mate and guayusa are much less acidic for me and that I feel. I think the effect is more balanced and somewhat calmer I believe due to preserving more nutrients. AS for the enzyme theory.. I thought, if it had enzymes for the breakdown of it's own xanthines, that it would help in dealing with addiction.