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Changa: A smoking blend containing Ayahuasca and other herbs
- Thread starter chocobeastie
- Start date
Observant
Nothing Stops The Void
I read this thread ( Changa: A smoking blend containing Ayahuasca and other herbs - Changa - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus )
I he doesnt admit he is this Psytrance Changa Baron Person who sold his stuff at this Shop , at least I wont believe he is the man who invented changa. Havent you been at Boom'08 endlessness?
The man who invented Changa is really quite popular within the tribes i am around, i came across him in different countries .
Of course i dont know how much he sold , but pretty much everybody who went to boom has his little changa story to tell.
I he doesnt admit he is this Psytrance Changa Baron Person who sold his stuff at this Shop , at least I wont believe he is the man who invented changa. Havent you been at Boom'08 endlessness?
The man who invented Changa is really quite popular within the tribes i am around, i came across him in different countries .
Of course i dont know how much he sold , but pretty much everybody who went to boom has his little changa story to tell.
Giving Aya to friends on MDMA is dangerous and stupid.
If you want to experiment on yourself be my guest (although you have been strongly advised not to).
What part of potentially deadly don't you get?
PEOPLE PLEASE DO NOT INGEST MAOI's OF ANY KIND WITH MDMA, PSUEDOEPHEDRINE, OR AMPHETAMINES (NOT A COMPLETE LIST OF NONO'S!)
Just because a person didn't die that time doesn't mean it is safe.
If you want to experiment on yourself be my guest (although you have been strongly advised not to).
What part of potentially deadly don't you get?
PEOPLE PLEASE DO NOT INGEST MAOI's OF ANY KIND WITH MDMA, PSUEDOEPHEDRINE, OR AMPHETAMINES (NOT A COMPLETE LIST OF NONO'S!)
Just because a person didn't die that time doesn't mean it is safe.
Hey endless in the name of science... Instead of personal bias why don't you start a thread where people do Ansley of pepsi challenge if you will between using an alcohol based extract of vine or caapi leaf and an extract as your suggesting. That way people can share experiences with each other and make up their minds. Or some one can make some tests fOr actual alkaloid content...
Its not personal bias, I have tried dissolving harmalas in ethanol, IPA and acetone and they are not good solvents for it. Infundibulum tests seem to show this too, and that methanol would be better, but still not very good. Maybe with a certain percentage of water they would be better solvents and still not pull so many impurities? Who knows, indeed some more tests would be beneficial.
By the way, do notice Im not saying nobody should do the soak, but Im saying if you do, why not at least once do an A/B afterwards in the supposedly spent material to see if more crashes out? Find for yourself, no need to trust my words. If nothing crashes out, there you go, you see that its effective enough, so come and share with us the results. Also testing with different ratios of the solvent and water and yields would be a great idea. There is already a thread that could be appropriate for the results, here:
Or make a thread specifically for this if you want. Right now Im not in the right situation to do these tests but would love to read the results
By the way, do notice Im not saying nobody should do the soak, but Im saying if you do, why not at least once do an A/B afterwards in the supposedly spent material to see if more crashes out? Find for yourself, no need to trust my words. If nothing crashes out, there you go, you see that its effective enough, so come and share with us the results. Also testing with different ratios of the solvent and water and yields would be a great idea. There is already a thread that could be appropriate for the results, here:
Or make a thread specifically for this if you want. Right now Im not in the right situation to do these tests but would love to read the results
What is the best solvent to dissolve freebase harmalas in? There has to be something that they love to chill in...
is it an unesecary step though is my question. You harmalas didn't dissolve in those solvents I get that... Makes perfect sense. BUT does that also men that it does that mean that they don't extract them from the plant matter adequately. I cannot think Of a single plant that cannot be tinctured. Because that's allmof is is a tincture.
is it an unesecary step though is my question. You harmalas didn't dissolve in those solvents I get that... Makes perfect sense. BUT does that also men that it does that mean that they don't extract them from the plant matter adequately. I cannot think Of a single plant that cannot be tinctured. Because that's allmof is is a tincture.
chocobeastie
Rising Star
A lot of all this is such narky squibbles. I'm just setting the record staight here for all, simply because I feel I have a respsonsibility to. It all comes at no particular advantage to me.
I was going to say that dorge has already posted his tek for 10x caapi extract, and that this critique did not apply to him when he posted it. It works.
It is simple.
It is not merely, harmine or harmalas in "salt form" - but as is - au naturale! It makes sense to leave the alkaloids as they are in nature. If you want to make them freebase, fine, go ahead. But I haven't seen solid reports or mentions that this may be truly worthwhile. And as stated, I have not seen why the addition of more harmine alkaloids is completely necessary in the first place!
Sure, using a vapourgenie may well be the most effective way to smoke Changa for you. I prefer it in a joint myself… which is the most "wasteful" way to smoke, but also the most social and convenient.
Vapourisation is of course the most superior way to smoke marijuana for example, but how many people actually use them around the world in comparison to the amount of people who smoke marijuana? very, very few.
As for combining MDMA with moclobomide. Very obviously, I am not recommending anyone take these combinations (there are no advantages or any type of more positive experience in doing so btw), only that by giving *more extreme* examples of possible danger, we can see that perhaps potential toxicity with MDMA may be an overstated issue when it comes to smoking MAOI's.
Having said that, I probably should not positively endorse that particular combination seeing observant had that experience and will edit all this in time .
My basic conclusion is that:
"MAOI toxicity is generally overrated as a "danger" within the west, and is more likely to be something each individual has to ascertain for themselves."
I know a man who eaten all the wrong foods on Ayahuasca deliberately many times, and have no negative effects whatsover. When drinking Ayahuasca, the two foods we have seen people have problems with are red wine and blue vine cheese, and that was only with harmalines and not harmine.
I have yet to hear of anyone doing this combination or reporting negative side effects from their use with Changa, whether this exists or what other possible contraindications there are with certain drugs or compounds or foods is anyone's guess. But from what I have seen, is that Changa is pretty safe! This is the basic message - one which I didn't want bogged down in precautionary supersticion and fear.
As for Observant's experience (which is the first I have heard of this type), I mean, this is one reason why I cannot wholeheartedly recommend any addition of harmala's and it is also one of the reasons why Ayahuasca leaf was first used, rather than vine, as leaf is typically (although not always) contains a lower harmine content. And then again, I don't know the content of his experience. one mans "seizures" is another man's bliss. Involuntary shaking of this type can represent profound forms of let go and release - not always, but it is something to take into consideration.
As for the double blind tests. I am not a scientist and don't give much credibility to the scientitific method as a way of knowing .
I can say, these are my observations and those of pretty much all of my peers. If someone who is a scientist, and wants to peruse that method of inquiry, feel free to! I don't feel any obligation whatsoever to validate my observations via a particular scientific method, and I will leave that to people who feel that "science" is the most valid way we can know things. I have a friend who would not be convinced otherwise - but really, I can't bring myself to get a boner for this type of thing!
I was going to say that dorge has already posted his tek for 10x caapi extract, and that this critique did not apply to him when he posted it. It works.
It is simple.
It is not merely, harmine or harmalas in "salt form" - but as is - au naturale! It makes sense to leave the alkaloids as they are in nature. If you want to make them freebase, fine, go ahead. But I haven't seen solid reports or mentions that this may be truly worthwhile. And as stated, I have not seen why the addition of more harmine alkaloids is completely necessary in the first place!
Sure, using a vapourgenie may well be the most effective way to smoke Changa for you. I prefer it in a joint myself… which is the most "wasteful" way to smoke, but also the most social and convenient.
Vapourisation is of course the most superior way to smoke marijuana for example, but how many people actually use them around the world in comparison to the amount of people who smoke marijuana? very, very few.
As for combining MDMA with moclobomide. Very obviously, I am not recommending anyone take these combinations (there are no advantages or any type of more positive experience in doing so btw), only that by giving *more extreme* examples of possible danger, we can see that perhaps potential toxicity with MDMA may be an overstated issue when it comes to smoking MAOI's.
Having said that, I probably should not positively endorse that particular combination seeing observant had that experience and will edit all this in time .
My basic conclusion is that:
"MAOI toxicity is generally overrated as a "danger" within the west, and is more likely to be something each individual has to ascertain for themselves."
I know a man who eaten all the wrong foods on Ayahuasca deliberately many times, and have no negative effects whatsover. When drinking Ayahuasca, the two foods we have seen people have problems with are red wine and blue vine cheese, and that was only with harmalines and not harmine.
I have yet to hear of anyone doing this combination or reporting negative side effects from their use with Changa, whether this exists or what other possible contraindications there are with certain drugs or compounds or foods is anyone's guess. But from what I have seen, is that Changa is pretty safe! This is the basic message - one which I didn't want bogged down in precautionary supersticion and fear.
As for Observant's experience (which is the first I have heard of this type), I mean, this is one reason why I cannot wholeheartedly recommend any addition of harmala's and it is also one of the reasons why Ayahuasca leaf was first used, rather than vine, as leaf is typically (although not always) contains a lower harmine content. And then again, I don't know the content of his experience. one mans "seizures" is another man's bliss. Involuntary shaking of this type can represent profound forms of let go and release - not always, but it is something to take into consideration.
As for the double blind tests. I am not a scientist and don't give much credibility to the scientitific method as a way of knowing .
I can say, these are my observations and those of pretty much all of my peers. If someone who is a scientist, and wants to peruse that method of inquiry, feel free to! I don't feel any obligation whatsoever to validate my observations via a particular scientific method, and I will leave that to people who feel that "science" is the most valid way we can know things. I have a friend who would not be convinced otherwise - but really, I can't bring myself to get a boner for this type of thing!
chocobeastie said:
Au naturale = salt form because those plants are acidic, thats just chemistry there. Regarding "solid reports", its not about waiting for someone to show you the answer, I am just asking for people to be autonomous and decide for themselves, and at least once test out an A/B post-soaking and see if there are more harmalas to crash out. I dont see how you could disagree with that, considering im not offending anyone's methods but want people to not blindly follow teks and to collectively explore what is the best way and then share with others the results...
chocobeastie said:
Fine by me, im not saying everybody should do it one way or another, I can only say what is the best for me, but what I am saying is that if you are recommending to others one way, you might as well make them also aware of the other possibilities and that they can eventually choose themselves.
chocobeastie said:
and perhaps potential toxicity isnt overstated. I dont think its right to use friends or others on the internet as lab rats considering what we know pharmacologically about these substances. Time to edit is now, considering people can have serious problems following your words. I added a warning in your first post, feel free to remove it once you have completely edited your recommendations.
chocobeastie said:
What do you mean by MAOI toxicity? Your words are not precise enough. MAOI as in harmalas/RIMAs or as in any MAOI? MAOI toxicity as in by themselves? As in combination with food? As in combination with SSRI/Amphetamines?
The fact that people have died combining RIMAs and SSRIs/Amphetamines shows me pretty clearly that it isnt overrated danger, specially considering it was people who could have been like anybody here, just looking to have good fun.
As I already stated further back (and as is in our FAQ), the only danger I agree is over-stated is the combination of harmalas/RIMAs and food, but there is a very specific pharmacological explanation for this, because tyramine is eliminated by MAO-B and not MAO-A, which is what is inhibited by harmalas/moclobemide.
chocobeastie said:
Thanks to the scientific method ayahuasca is legalized in Brazil. Just one simple example (out of many I could use, including the existence of this very forum) how it is a great way of knowing and that directly results in benefits to the community.
Not saying you should do the double blind test, though, you do what you want. I just doubted that you could tell appart synthetic dmt from extracted, considering they are both pure, because you were the one that made such affirmation and it doesnt make sense to me. I think if you dont want to test, maybe better not make that affirmation (speculation) in the first place then, but thats just my opinion
Lastly, its not about science being more valid in an absolute sense, its all complementary.
I actually learned the 10x caapi leaf extract from choco here years ago on another forum.
And endless as i mentioned before if you want to prove that it's more functional to do an a/b extract get a post going to provide some evidence from people doing qualitative bioassays from both methods. You could probably just take some leaf infused by adding some of flowing visions stuff to it and compare.
Also just infusing caapi leaf alone with out and ethanolmbased 10x extract promotes a definite increase in duration and effect as well as the ability to continue smoking over a prolonged period of time with a tolerance build up. Which cannot be accomplished as has been proven by just enhancing any ol smoking blend with spice. The alkaliods in the caapi leaf are unchanged in an ehanol extract and are the same as they are in just smoking unconcentrated leaf. So what does that tell us?!
Yes chemistry is awesome but some times it feels like people make things way toom omplicated here...
Also I think I would agree with him on the notion that dmt extracted from different plants may vey well provide a different experience, it may not be rational, and possibly it's just knowing that makes the difference, but I think that if there is one things that entheogens has taught me is that the rational doesn't always cut it...
And endless as i mentioned before if you want to prove that it's more functional to do an a/b extract get a post going to provide some evidence from people doing qualitative bioassays from both methods. You could probably just take some leaf infused by adding some of flowing visions stuff to it and compare.
Also just infusing caapi leaf alone with out and ethanolmbased 10x extract promotes a definite increase in duration and effect as well as the ability to continue smoking over a prolonged period of time with a tolerance build up. Which cannot be accomplished as has been proven by just enhancing any ol smoking blend with spice. The alkaliods in the caapi leaf are unchanged in an ehanol extract and are the same as they are in just smoking unconcentrated leaf. So what does that tell us?!
Yes chemistry is awesome but some times it feels like people make things way toom omplicated here...
Also I think I would agree with him on the notion that dmt extracted from different plants may vey well provide a different experience, it may not be rational, and possibly it's just knowing that makes the difference, but I think that if there is one things that entheogens has taught me is that the rational doesn't always cut it...
Why do you think im trying to prove something? Are you not reading what im saying? Im neither saying you arent extracting anything with your soaks, im just saying that possibly its not the most effective way or getting all the alks and im suggesting that if you or others care, there is a simple test to check it. Its not meant to be an offense to your method or anything.
You dont have to go through all this complication of doing comparative bioassays, just do an a/b on your supposedly spent leafs/vine after the soak and see if anything more crashes out. Or dont, I dont care, Im just putting this out there for those that want to test. The feedback is supposed to be constructive and helpful, not offensive
You dont have to go through all this complication of doing comparative bioassays, just do an a/b on your supposedly spent leafs/vine after the soak and see if anything more crashes out. Or dont, I dont care, Im just putting this out there for those that want to test. The feedback is supposed to be constructive and helpful, not offensive
I know that endless I'm not offended! Inappologizenf I sounded so . It's just we keep going over this and I'm not hearing any one doing it yet. I know I don't have time to do the dishes let alone much else. I think you make an interesting point and yes if some one wished to try that I say go for it and let's see the results. It could be a really good idea.
I think some times for me I come from a herbalist back ground and it feels at times we can really over comPlicate things. I have a keep it simple attitude about most things.
I admit though. If some one does an a/b after an ethanol extract and they get a sizable amount of alks your onto somthing!
I think some times for me I come from a herbalist back ground and it feels at times we can really over comPlicate things. I have a keep it simple attitude about most things.
I admit though. If some one does an a/b after an ethanol extract and they get a sizable amount of alks your onto somthing!
teotenakeltje
Rising Star
as a matter of fact i just made a 10x caapi leaf extract, and i tried an A/B following this tek:
Easy_Caapi_Vine_Alkaloid_Extraction_Guide
I couldn't see anything crashing out after adding the lye. An ammonia smell was noticed though... I decided to add a little more lye then necessary, but this didn't help to actually SEE something crashing out.
I decided to put it away till next day.
Next day i noticed some sort of sediment...but NOT much at all. I tried to filter through a coffee filter, but after several filters tearing a part i lost my nerv and threw everything in the sink :roll:
I used 40 grams of leaf btw, and let it soak for 3 weeks.
I guess this experiment was rather useless cause it ended in the sink...but since i didn't see anything crashing out, i guess the alkaloid content was negligable.
I tried the caapi leaf with some mint and spice in low dose...i was very tensed cause of my last trip, but it was a nice smoke, very mellow but a good way to re establish my relationship with the spice.
Easy_Caapi_Vine_Alkaloid_Extraction_Guide
I couldn't see anything crashing out after adding the lye. An ammonia smell was noticed though... I decided to add a little more lye then necessary, but this didn't help to actually SEE something crashing out.
I decided to put it away till next day.
Next day i noticed some sort of sediment...but NOT much at all. I tried to filter through a coffee filter, but after several filters tearing a part i lost my nerv and threw everything in the sink :roll:
I used 40 grams of leaf btw, and let it soak for 3 weeks.
I guess this experiment was rather useless cause it ended in the sink...but since i didn't see anything crashing out, i guess the alkaloid content was negligable.
I tried the caapi leaf with some mint and spice in low dose...i was very tensed cause of my last trip, but it was a nice smoke, very mellow but a good way to re establish my relationship with the spice.
Dorge said:
I understand you and I feel if you have found your own way of working with plants, please by all means following it, I definitely do not want to sound like im trying to convince you otherwise!
Personally though I feel an A/B using vinegar and sodium carbonate is as easy as it gets, definitely much easier than that vegetable quiche I was trying to make yesterday
teotenakeltje said:
Thanks for trying it out! Too bad about the filtering fail and all, in the end it sounds like pretty unconclusive results.
One thing I noticed with working with precipitations and alkaloid formation is that often one thing looks like a lot or like a little, but that one doesnt really knwo until one got it on top of a scale. The sediment could have been just impurities from the plant, or it could have been alkaloids (harmalas in an a/b dont form crystals like what you might expect from dmt, they can just be a sediment), or it could have been both. In any case thanks again for trying it out
SHroomtroll
Rising Star
Here´s a link to my Extraction of "spent" caapi vine...
I got more out from doing gibrans tek on caapi vines that had been soaked in acetone for over a month than i got from the acetone soak.
That is some good proof that A/B is far superior for caapi vine extractions.
I guess my next experiment i will do the same on caapi leaves.
Harmala tek on "spent" caapi - FAQ - All your basic questions and answers - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus
I got more out from doing gibrans tek on caapi vines that had been soaked in acetone for over a month than i got from the acetone soak.
That is some good proof that A/B is far superior for caapi vine extractions.
I guess my next experiment i will do the same on caapi leaves.
There must be an ideal amount of water content in alcohol that would pull most alkaloids and not much impurity. Also temperature will be a variable to test. Betwen changing temperature and changing amount of water content, there must be an optimum point somewhere, of effective harmala and little impurity being disolved.