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Changa on Wikipedia

Migrated topic.
I don't think anyone is "constantly focusing on him", it's just when the topic of the origins of changa and/or his name come up, he comes up as well, as it's logical given his claims. I don't see him ever brought up outside this context, much less a "relentless pursuit" of the guy. Even from his perspective, it should make sense that when discussing the creation and naming of changa, the "inventor" would be named.

Also, I don't think it comes from any puritanical attitude. IMO it comes from a dislike of people that attempt to profit from knowledge they got for free, often trying to to promote and aggrandize their image in the process, with little to no credit to anyone but their own brilliant genius. That makes sense, as the Nexus is a place where that knowledge is shared for free with anyone that wants it. It's even worse if that profiteering and self promotion is done through lies.

It's also odd to me to make a post telling others to stop posting about him, thereby posting about him in the process and contributing to keep the conversation going. I don't have anything against that, it's just that if the goal is for people to post less about the topic, it's not going to be advanced that way.

Will he stop bringing up himself in connection to changa?
 
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Since this topic keeps resurfacing in different threads, it might be worth addressing it more systematically. One practical step would be to collectively review whether the relevant Wikipedia page, in multiple languages, can be adjusted, or at least properly nuanced.

At present, the page largely reflects a narrative shaped by a single individual, and several of us feel that this account is not entirely accurate and is open to well-founded criticism. A commitment to truth is fundamental to what we are trying to do here, and that makes this worth taking seriously.

If others agree, I would be happy to be involved. We could take some time to clarify the context, not to deny his role, but to explain that many people were working on these ideas, and that his main contribution may have been popularising them and bringing them to a wider audience.

How one evaluates that role, positively or critically, is up to the reader. The key point is that the background is presented clearly and accurately. That would be my proposal.
 
Varallo said:
Since this topic keeps resurfacing in different threads, it might be worth addressing it more systematically. One practical step would be to collectively review whether the relevant Wikipedia page, in multiple languages, can be adjusted, or at least properly nuanced.

At present, the page largely reflects a narrative shaped by a single individual, and several of us feel that this account is not entirely accurate and is open to well-founded criticism. A commitment to truth is fundamental to what we are trying to do here, and that makes this worth taking seriously.

If others agree, I would be happy to be involved. We could take some time to clarify the context, not to deny his role, but to explain that many people were working on these ideas, and that his main contribution may have been popularising them and bringing them to a wider audience.

How one evaluates that role, positively or critically, is up to the reader. The key point is that the background is presented clearly and accurately. That would be my proposal.
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Or just let it be and focus on things that actually matter.
 
This discussion is not an attack on Julian Palmer, nor is it a dismissal of his books or his broader contributions. The focus is on evaluating specific claims. Where there is documented evidence showing that certain mixtures like changa or practices predate his work and were already in use within the community at the time, it is reasonable, and necessary, to acknowledge that evidence. This is a matter of historical accuracy, not personal criticism.

The purpose of this discussion is inquiry and research. That necessarily involves assessing sources, comparing claims against available evidence, and revising conclusions when the record does not support them. Seeking the truth is not antagonistic, it is the core obligation of serious discussion. When inaccuracies persist or are defended in the face of contrary evidence, they obstruct that goal.

EmeraldAtomiser said:
No, you're ok, thanks.
If you guys keep up with attacking Julian, I'm going to keep voicing my opinion.
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Constructive participation is welcome. If there is credible evidence that supports Palmer’s claims, presenting it would meaningfully contribute to the discussion and strengthen his case. However, attempts to derail the conversation through silly remarks or irrelevant objections do not advance understanding and will not be accommodated by me.

This is not about “bashing” an individual. It is about ensuring that the historical narrative of a significant and influential aspect of our shared hobby is grounded in verifiable facts rather than unsupported assertions. That standard applies to everyone, regardless of reputation.
 
Okay I’ve cleaned up a bit,

As I see it there’s two main issues with the current Wikipedia article.

First, there is a claim that Changa, or more generally, combinations of harmalas and DMT in herbal mixes were invented by Julian Palmer. I believe we have evidence suggesting this is not accurate. Prior to Palmer’s work, there was already substantial experimentation with harmala–DMT mixtures, and these combinations were not unprecedented. It would be helpful to collect and present reliable sources that document this earlier experimentation, to clarify that the practice itself was not a singular invention.

From memory in all the treads so far: don’t pin me down on this. Plus would be nice if we can find the exact place and quote.
  • Turner
  • Gracie & Zarkov
  • Graham St John, is now a source in the wiki that might clarify the story. (I have not read it precisely enough, but see attached file)


Second, there is the claim that Julian Palmer named and popularized Changa. At the moment, I don’t think we have clear, strong evidence either confirming or disproving this. Much of what exists appears to be anecdotal. Because of that, it may not be possible, or even necessary at this stage, to challenge or change this part of the article.

Discion on the topic is here:

Quetchua and/or Shipibo snuff called 'changa'

Caapi was consumed before sniffing a yopo snuff, but I haven't found any source confirming that the snuffs themselves contained caapi. They only mention it as an unconfirmed possibility (see above), and I think it's likely that over time that has been distorted into "they for sure did". Do you...
forum.dmt-nexus.me forum.dmt-nexus.me

Given this, I suggest focusing first on the invention claim. Rather than framing the issue as “Julian Palmer did not invent this,” it may be more constructive and accurate to clarify that there was already widespread experimentation with these mixtures before his involvement. This would provide important historical context and allow readers to form their own conclusions about attribution and naming, without overstating or personalizing the correction.

I don’t have much direct experience editing Wikipedia, but my understanding is that we could open a discussion (for example, on the article’s talk page) and present the available evidence and sources. From there, editors can evaluate how best to reflect this broader historical context in line with Wikipedia’s standards.

I would be very happy if we could add something like this:

Earlier experimentation with smoked β-carbolines and DMT has been documented in the 1980s and 1990s, indicating that the underlying pharmacological concept predates the name.

Anyway I think it would be great to see if we could use some joint effort to get this going.

Relevant other threads:

The Truth Changa: A smoking blend containing Ayahuasca and other herbs

:twisted: :love:::shock: ilearnt a new word today SOLIPSISTIC! I honestly have never heard that word before.:shock: :shock: Solipsism Solipsism is the philosophical idea that only one's own mind is sure to exist. As an epistemological position, solipsism holds that knowledge of anything...
forum.dmt-nexus.me forum.dmt-nexus.me

Quetchua and/or Shipibo snuff called 'changa'

Hello, I was reading a post about changa and Julian Palmer, the self-proclaimed inventor, and someone mentioned Nen: “...there is also a Quechua and/or Shipibo snuff called changa, which is powdered caapi leaf with other (probably DMT-containing) plants… so that would probably be the origin of...
forum.dmt-nexus.me forum.dmt-nexus.me
 

Attachments

  • St-John-Graham-Aussiewaska.-A-Cultural-History-of-Changa-and-Ayahuasca-Analogues-in-Australia-...pdf
    1.3 MB · Views: 1
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For reference:

In St-John Graham (source claiming Julian was the inventor, from page 152

“Since the discovery of the freebase vaporizing method in the early 1960s, subsequently regulated dosages in smoking blends using synthetic varieties of DMT with a variety of herbs, including cannabis and parsley, in practices that surfaced in Australia by the early 1970s. But the acacia-sourced DMT plus harmalas combination enhanced the experience markedly. Flying countless sorties into the ineffable, beta-testing techniques of extraction”

Is specific, but also is clear about that the method of smoking DMT infused herbs was already practiced.

“Prior to the original changa mixes of mid-2003, regional experimentalists were smoking what they called “luxury joints” – acacia-sourced DMT sprinkled in cannabis joints or mixed with popular herbs like passionflower and damiana, accessible in dried form from herb shops and at festivals.”

In the same chapter, this claim. Which is also very clearly stating the fact that there where mixes that included harmalas, (passionflower) pre Palmers claim.
 
EmeraldAtomiser said:
Maybe it's time to just let it go. It really isn't important. Life is more pleasant with comfy undies.
If he was some junkie with nothing to offer, maybe I could understand this relentless pursuit of him, but he's not, he's a valuable source of knowledge, and I think you do him a disservice by constantly focusing on this.
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Not trying to stir the pot, but you seem to be missing the point. As @The Traveler already specified, it's about accuracy of data. No one has said he has nothing else to offer and so it's only disservice, potentially, to his credibility.

Sorry if that's too "puritanical," though, I'd call it rigorous...

One love
 
EmeraldAtomiser said:
Maybe it's time to just let it go. It really isn't important. Life is more pleasant with comfy undies.
If he was some junkie with nothing to offer, maybe I could understand this relentless pursuit of him, but he's not, he's a valuable source of knowledge, and I think you do him a disservice by constantly focusing on this.
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There still seems to be some confusion, and I can totally understand your view on this, since this has been debated ad nauseum.

Hopefully this will give you better insights into my absolute standpoint on this matter:
  • I will be VERY happy when is it proven that Julian Palmer did not come up with the 'Changa' name
  • I will be VERY happy when it is proven that Julian Palmer did come up with the 'Changa' name
I want to know absolute truths without any doubt, so we can maintain our high quality of information that we share as the DMT-Nexus platform.

Me pointing out certain mental traits and motivations that might influence Palmer's actions, are meant to make sure people know that we currently have some well funded doubts about the words coming from Palmer, and with this that people should take that it into account when they read Palmer's books and interviews or attent any of his activities, it is part of that exact quality of information and data that we freely like to share as the DMT-Nexus.


Kind regards,

The Traveler
 
blig-blug said:
Makes sense, we do own the means of DMT production, after all!
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Indeed! The next step is to institute collective DMT extraction labs, and to move people into communal, chill-out room style apartments. Shpongle will play through the loudspeakers at four-hour intervals throughout the day, signaling the obligatory time to smoalk, with those who refuse meeting the wrath of the almighty Toad.

@northape what do you think?
 
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docs.preterhuman.net

Three Beta-Carboline Containing Plants

docs.preterhuman.net docs.preterhuman.net

A lovely read on early experiments, 1985 supposedly, I don’t have the original material but this is for now what I could find. Would be interesting if anyone has an archive, also especially the last paragraph as it calls for more experimentation smoking mixes.

“Additional work should be done with the smoked mixtures to investigate the "9 minute barrier" and to provide more qualitative mixtures for some future
beta-carboline/Tryptamine cookbook.”
 
Varallo said:
docs.preterhuman.net

Three Beta-Carboline Containing Plants

docs.preterhuman.net docs.preterhuman.net

A lovely read on early experiments, 1985 supposedly, I don’t have the original material but this is for now what I could find. Would be interesting if anyone has an archive, also especially the last paragraph as it calls for more experimentation smoking mixes.

“Additional work should be done with the smoked mixtures to investigate the "9 minute barrier" and to provide more qualitative mixtures for some future
beta-carboline/Tryptamine cookbook.”
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That is from Gracie and Zarkov's 'Notes From the Underground' discussed previously in this thread.
 
I think he at most named the smoking mix changa.. a lot of Australians who were around at the time seem to agree on that part. However the term changa has been used before for snuffs in the amazon..who knows for how long.. so he likely heard the name prior in his travels. And smoking DMT with harmalas clearly predates Julian. He's consistently shifted the goal posts it seems.. first it was he came up with infusing DMT with harmalas into herbal blend. Then when it was evidenced that people had already done this it became that he came up with smoking DMT infused into specifically caapi leaf/vine. Then it was that he came up with the name.. then it was that he came up with all the popular admixture plants (that last one I believe may be correct to some degree)..

As far as I can tell his greatest contribution is having brought a commercial mindset to DMT in Australia and causing widespread/largescale harm to Acacia obtusifolia.. which in many areas still struggles to recover. There is one national park where it pretty much doesn't grow anymore. Still a pretty interesting guy though.
 
visionecura91 said:
Full text of "Bulletin" Here "changa" is mentioned as synonim for "chanca" but there is no meaning specified.
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Nice 👍 I think it’s a reference to a group tribes in the highlands of the Andes and although they have some psychedelic traditions in their history it’s the lowlands of the Amazon that provided caapi, the necessary element of Ayahuasca.

So far I have not been able to find any information on the word in the context of psychedelics.
 
I am pretty sure Changa was developed in the Soviets and was heavily promoted for use by children 😜

Lyrics:
Chunga-Changa, blue sky!
Chunga-Changa, summer all year round!
Chunga-Changa, we live happily!
Chunga-Changa, we sing a song!

Wonder Island, Wonder Island
It is easy and simple to live on it
It is easy and simple to live on it
Chunga-Changa

Our happiness is constant!
Chew coconuts! Eat bananas!
Chew coconuts! Eat bananas!
Chunga-Changa

Chunga-Changa, there is no better place!
Chunga-Changa, we know no troubles!
Chunga-Changa, whoever has lived here for an hour
Chunga-Changa, will not leave us

Wonder Island, Wonder Island
It is easy and simple to live on it
It is easy and simple to live on it
Chunga-Changa

Our happiness is constant!
Chew coconuts! Eat bananas!
Chew coconuts! Eat bananas!
Chunga-Changa

Wonder Island, Wonder Island
It is easy and simple to live on it
It is easy and simple to live on it
Chunga-Changa

Our happiness is constant!
Chew coconuts! Eat bananas!
Chew coconuts! Eat bananas!
Chunga-Changa
Chunga-Changa
 
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