CIELO - How to separate Mescaline Citrate from Other Alkaloids?

[highlightprotein]

Edit: This thread has now turned into my journal for my first extraction using CIELO. The posts regarding this start here.

The CIELO tek calls for salting with citric acid.

How can we separate mescaline citrate from the other alkaloids?

When using vinegar you can wash with MEK. When using HCL you can wash with acetone and IPA.

 

[highlightprotein]

I took 150mg from the 7th pull of my Bridgsii after fasting for 16 hours.

However I don't think I really felt anything. There was potentially some effects like being quicker to laugh or being more interested in the music, but I think it could be placebo.

I think I'll do 200mg next time?

 

[Loveall]

I took 150mg from the 7th pull of my Bridgsii after fasting for 16 hours.

However I don't think I really felt anything. There was potentially some effects like being quicker to laugh or being more interested in the music, but I think it could be placebo.

I think I'll do 200mg next time?

It is your choice, just keep in mind that each time you dose the first 100-150mg are an investment to get the effects started so to speak.

 

[_Trip_]

[
How do we calculate yield given that the mescaline citrate is less potent than the HCl?

Assuming my Bridgsii goo is active, I had a yield of 2.8% if I recall correctly from that one, so a big difference from this 0.46%. But perhaps that goo is not pure mescaline.

Preliminary results showed Mescaline citrate is 62% as strong as HCL so .48% mescaline citrate would equal .29% HCL. We're still waiting on confirmation if this figure is 100% correct. There's been many now who have bio-assay both and agree this is about right but there's no lab confirmation on this.

For a bunch of us, psychedelics are a gateway drug to gardening

I had to laugh this is so true.

Highlightprotein, honestly in terms of my current cacti collection 90% of it has been given to me for free. You can end up with a large collection in a very short time. Every time you see a big pedro, bridgesii or peruvianus in someones front yard or towering over their house in the backyard, politely knock on their door and ask for a cutting. Worse case they can only say no and best case you'll get a pup or a big cutting to grow from. 99% of the time people are more than happy part with some. I had one lady that had a 40 year old pedro, it was huge, too big for her yard. She kept trying to get me to take more. I walked away with way over 20 foot of cacti.
It was too much I had to give it away to other collectors I knew. Most people in my area aren't a fan of cacti and are happy to give it away.
And by doing this you'll meet people and make a nice little social network of other collectors that will happily trade or give you free bits and pieces they come across. Cacti collectors are usually awesome people.

 

[shroombee]

How do we calculate yield given that the mescaline citrate is less potent than the HCl? Do we simply do 0.18g / 39g == 0.46% or do we have to account for the mescaline citrate vs HCl?

When you quote yield, use the straight calculation like 0.18g / 39g = 0.46% and clearly state the yield is mescaline citrate.

I took 150mg from the 7th pull of my Bridgsii after fasting for 16 hours.

However I don't think I really felt anything. There was potentially some effects like being quicker to laugh or being more interested in the music, but I think it could be placebo.

I think I'll do 200mg next time?

When dosing to a standard such as mescaline HCl, you would do the conversion at that time to determine how much to take. So your 150 mg dose of mescaline citrate is approximately equivalent to 150 mg x 62% = 93 mg mescaline HCl, which might not even be a threshold dose according to Erowid (threshold being 100 mg mescaline HCl).

Being quicker to laugh (and a general light and easy-going mood) is typical when I'm coming down after the peak of a mescaline trip, so perhaps you got the equivalent of a microdose.

Since you hardly got any effects on 150 mg, I feel you would be safe between 225-300 mg for your next conservative trial, which is equivalent to 140-186 mg mescaline HCl. Still a "light" dose according to Erowid. And your extract is unlikely to be pure mescaline citrate so that will also reduce the effects. Mescaline is also a very gentle and forgiving teacher (until you get into the heavy dosing range).

 

[highlightprotein]

Sounds good, I think I'll try for 225mg. This next time I will be using the Bridgsii goo instead of the crystals.

BTW last night I had two very vivid and long lasting dreams which were really pleasant. I'm not sure if it is related to the 150mg of mescaline I took yesterday but these dreams were unusually realistic and long lasting.

 

[highlightprotein]

Would it be useful to mix vegetable oil with my used EA on my stir plate in order to further clean up the EA?

My theory is that there may be some plant material which is soluble in both the EA and the nonpolar oil. But perhaps all this would due is further injure my EA if there was some substance in the vegetable oil that migrates into the EA.

I'm running two more extractions now on the same San Pedro powder. The first uses microwave + chilled EA except that it does a 3 minute pull instead of a 1 minute pull. The second extraction skipped the microwave, but will use chilled EA with 3 minute pulls. I'm trying to see if perhaps the microwave clumps might have reduced my yield, and I'm also curious to see if 3 minute pulls with chilled EA might increase yields over 1 minute pulls.

Hopefully this weekend I will have collected enough mescaline citrate to try 225mg.

 

[Loveall]

Would it be useful to mix vegetable oil with my used EA on my stir plate in order to further clean up the EA?

My theory is that there may be some plant material which is soluble in both the EA and the nonpolar oil. But perhaps all this would due is further injure my EA if there was some substance in the vegetable oil that migrates into the EA.

I'm running two more extractions now on the same San Pedro powder. The first uses microwave + chilled EA except that it does a 3 minute pull instead of a 1 minute pull. The second extraction skipped the microwave, but will use chilled EA with 3 minute pulls. I'm trying to see if perhaps the microwave clumps might have reduced my yield, and I'm also curious to see if 3 minute pulls with chilled EA might increase yields over 1 minute pulls.

Hopefully this weekend I will have collected enough mescaline citrate to try 225mg.

I did saturated sodium carbonate washes on used EA and it worked fine. I found no need to go beyond that. I did make sure the EA was back to neutral with pH paper.

 

[highlightprotein]

Just finished my 3rd extraction using the same San Pedro powder from extraction #2, the only difference this time is that I did 3 minute pulls instead of 1 minute pulls with the chilled EA and I did slow crystallization with 5mg citric acid per gram of EA. I kept microwaving and got the clumps again, but I used my gloved fingers to try to powderize the clumps as much as possible.

My yield is about the same as last time, so no real difference noticed using 3 minute pulls instead of 1 minute pull. I did get beautiful needle white crystals in my filter however with the 5mg citric acid. The evaporated crystals from my jar were a light yellow/brown color that was a bit sticky.

I'm also on my 4th extraction using the same San Pedro powder, but this time I am skipping the microwave (I'll still do 3 minute pulls to be consistent with the last extraction). Wow the EA is super dark green in comparison to the microwaved version. I hope I will be able to reuse the EA. In my opinion this extraction without the microwave was a bit "messy" to work with. The cactus powder seemed more liquidy and it was easy to get stuck on the french press filter or the spoon I was stirring with. I kept having to hit the spoon on the french press and make a bunch of noise which I didn't like. As of now I just prefer the microwaved version due to this (small) problem, but I'll see if the yield increases without the microwave.

 

[Loveall]

Just finished my 3rd extraction using the same San Pedro powder from extraction #2, the only difference this time is that I did 3 minute pulls instead of 1 minute pulls with the chilled EA and I did slow crystallization with 5mg citric acid per gram of EA. I kept microwaving and got the clumps again, but I used my gloved fingers to try to powderize the clumps as much as possible.

My yield is about the same as last time, so no real difference noticed using 3 minute pulls instead of 1 minute pull. I did get beautiful needle white crystals in my filter however with the 5mg citric acid. The evaporated crystals from my jar were a light yellow/brown color that was a bit sticky.

I'm also on my 4th extraction using the same San Pedro powder, but this time I am skipping the microwave (I'll still do 3 minute pulls to be consistent with the last extraction). Wow the EA is super dark green in comparison to the microwaved version. I hope I will be able to reuse the EA. In my opinion this extraction without the microwave was a bit "messy" to work with. The cactus powder seemed more liquidy and it was easy to get stuck on the french press filter or the spoon I was stirring with. I kept having to hit the spoon on the french press and make a bunch of noise which I didn't like. As of now I just prefer the microwaved version due to this (small) problem, but I'll see if the yield increases without the microwave.

This last of information is interesting. Your paste should not be that liquid or sticky. It should become more like sand in the EA and be easy to work with. You can use a second spoon to move sticky paste, careful with hitting your french press, the glass can break.

More important than the actual water measurement is the paste consistency. Make sure you are mixing well until fluffy. If paste is not fluffy and feels wet before extraction maybe your powder needs less water. Excess water has been reported as a source of goo.

You could start with for example 2/3 of the water, add 100% of the lime, and incorporate the cactus powder by stirring like the TEK describes. If the paste becomes too dry, add water slowly until it feels right (fluffy/airy like a souffle).

 

[highlightprotein]

Today I tried my San Pedro extractions for the first time.

I started with 50mg as an allergy test (probably not necessary since I already did this with my Bridgsii extraction, but just wanted to be safe). I did not feel anything after two hours.

I then took 200mg (fasted for about 17 hours). I didn't feel anything for about an hour, and then it seemed like I had a tiny amount of anxiety in my stomach. I have kind of felt that feeling I guess since then. But not really. My pupils appear to be a bit more dilated in darkness than normal, but nothing like what happens when I take mushrooms.

I'm kind of struggling with this mescaline dosing. With mushrooms I am very sensitive. It took me a few months to really be able to hang with even low/moderate doses like 1 to 1.75g. 2g is still overwhelming to me. I also had a scare with mushrooms early on, so I want to be very cautious and conservative with mescaline.

However I think my cautiousness is wasting a lot of money. Unlike mushrooms, cactus is relatively expensive to purchase. I've been trying this for about 3 weeks now and have not had a successful mescaline experience.

Perhaps I need to just jump in the deep end and take like 400mg. Of course I won't do that because I am too afraid. Perhaps 300mg next time...

 

[downwardsfromzero]

Yeah, well... yeah. Besides requiring relatively hefty doses for full psychedelic effects, mescaline has a general reputation for being forgiving - at least until you start getting to the higher end of the dosage range - but it can still surprise you out of the blue with an unexpected disintegration of your universe. That's just something that comes with the overall territory of the psychedelic experience. The same dose from one session to the next can in a way be relied on more to have different effects than similar ones, at least in terms of the specific details of the subjective effects. [NB I'm actually referring to some recent experiences with pharma here.]

One advantage with mescaline is that you can keep on slowly nibbling at it until you start to feel yourself approaching the level of effects you're comfortable with - at least, that's the kind of approach I've taken with cactus tea. Indeed, it's gentler on the stomach that way than it would be if slamming the whole bucket-load of alkaloid at once. It's also helpful to avoid getting stuck in the whole "am I feeling anything yet" mindset and just ensure you're in a situation where you can either blend into an altered state seamlessly or carry on quite happily without the full level of effects (or, indeed, any discernible level of effect).

One approach might be to take the 300mg and have a row of 50mg boosters lined up, from here to infinity. This is perhaps something you ought to have considered for your 200mg trial.

You may find that, a few hours into the mescaline experience, a little simple food might turn out to be incredibly good. Fasting doesn't necessarily have to continue throughout the psychedelic experience itself - sometimes a tired brain will appreciate a little nourishment to the betterment of your experience.

 

[highlightprotein]

DFZ, do you have a recommendation for when to dose the additional 50mg boosters?

For example, if after 1 hour I'm not really feeling it, should I redose 50mg? How long should I wait before redosing another 50mg?

Do you have a personal sweet spot you like with CIELO mescaline citrate? For example my sweet spot with mushrooms is 1.75g, anything below that and I personally think it is a waste, while anything above that is a bit too intense for me (granted, I am a beginner, perhaps this will increase over time, and perhaps I'll find other settings where 1g would be nice).

 

[Loveall]

DFZ, do you have a recommendation for when to dose the additional 50mg boosters?

For example, if after 1 hour I'm not really feeling it, should I redose 50mg? How long should I wait before redosing another 50mg?

Do you have a personal sweet spot you like with CIELO mescaline citrate? For example my sweet spot with mushrooms is 1.75g, anything below that and I personally think it is a waste, while anything above that is a bit too intense for me (granted, I am a beginner, perhaps this will increase over time, and perhaps I'll find other settings where 1g would be nice).

I like 350mg minimum if I'm going to be interacting with people or hiking. Usually 666mg.

 

[highlightprotein]

Would you be able to describe the difference between 350mg and 666mg?

When I take mushrooms, I always go outside in nature on this walk/light hike. It is very enjoyable. Is mescaline the same? At least today, with 200mg, I felt just a tiny bit uncomfortable on my walk, like I wasn't really enjoying it and wanted to be home. I think that is because I took just enough mescaline to cause a small amount of anxiety but not enough to cause the beneficial effects, but I'm not really sure.

 

[Loveall]

Would you be able to describe the difference between 350mg and 666mg?

When I take mushrooms, I always go outside in nature on this walk/light hike. It is very enjoyable. Is mescaline the same? At least today, with 200mg, I felt just a tiny bit uncomfortable on my walk, like I wasn't really enjoying it and wanted to be home. I think that is because I took just enough mescaline to cause a small amount of anxiety but not enough to cause the beneficial effects, but I'm not really sure.

350mg mescaline citrate: Feel a burst of nervous energy, followed by feeling of empathy and connection to people and nature. Art is enhanced, especially paintings with lots of color which can gently move. Closed eye visuals rare but possible if retiring to darkness and focusing inwards. Can push out of this state with some focus, but why do that - I try to stay on it.

666mg: All the feelings from 350mg, but stronger. Can be strong enough to just want to ride the wave. For example, closed eye visuals can be complex, liquid, and amazingly beautiful. Paintings can come alive. The experience is centered around the heart (mushrooms are more "brainy" for me), with body and external world awareness.

 

[highlightprotein]

I took 400mg of mescaline citrate (equivalent to about 250 hcl) about 2 hours ago.

I feel really cold and I am piling on sweaters, gloves, etc. yet still feel really cold. I am not shivering or anything like that, but I just feel pretty cold.

Is it normal?

On 300mg mesc citrate and below, I did not feel this sensation of being cold.

The other thing I would like to mention is that I took 200mg from San Pedro and 200mg from Bridgsii. This is the most Bridgsii I've tried.

When I take mushrooms I usually have a fluctuation between slightly cold and slightly hot.
But I've never swung to this level of cold.

 

[Loveall]

I took 400mg of mescaline citrate (equivalent to about 250 hcl) about 2 hours ago.

I feel really cold and I am piling on sweaters, gloves, etc. yet still feel really cold. I am not shivering or anything like that, but I just feel pretty cold.

Is it normal?

On 300mg mesc citrate and below, I did not feel this sensation of being cold.

The other thing I would like to mention is that I took 200mg from San Pedro and 200mg from Bridgsii. This is the most Bridgsii I've tried.

When I take mushrooms I usually have a fluctuation between slightly cold and slightly hot.
But I've never swung to this level of cold.

Not sure about cold. Mescaline alone is safe. More so at that lower/mild dosage level. If you see this in time, you can go to the nexus chat if you want to talk to someone. I hope you have a great trip.

 

[highlightprotein]

Not sure about cold. Mescaline alone is safe. More so at that lower/mild dosage level. If you see this in time, you can go to the nexus chat if you want to talk to someone. I hope you have a great trip.

Thanks, I'll keep the nexus chat in mind for next time.

I took a walk and quickly warmed up to a normal temperature (despite it being colder outside than in my home). I'm feeling fine now.

 

[highlightprotein]

Here is my trip report today. Unfortunately I'm still not getting any real effects.

I took 400mg of CIELO mescaline citrate (about 250mg HCL equivalent, which is the middle of the Common range on Erowid). 200mg from my successful San Pedro white crystal extraction, and 200mg from the Bridgsii goo that I cleaned up into light brown powder.

This experience was pretty much the same as last time when I did 300mg. The main difference was that the "underlying current of anxiety" came on a bit quicker, around 20-30 minutes as opposed to one hour. Also I got very cold which piling on sweaters didn't help at all. This eventually went back to normal after taking a walk.

On a positive note, I didn't perceive it was "anxiety". I would rather call it a "current of energy". It was definitely the same feeling as last time, but perhaps this means I am getting adjusted to it. Last time, I felt a compulsion to drink beer around the 5th hour mark while this time I had no such compulsion.

Around the 2 hour mark I could have sworn that the text on my computer had a slight visual distortion. However I couldn't replicate this. Other than this one time I didn't experience any OEV to speak of.

I laid down around the 4-5 hour mark in the dark but didn't notice any CEV. Well I maybe might have experienced a few really subtle CEVs. For example I thought I saw a skull/ugly face a couple of times. But that was pretty much it, there weren't really any colors or shapes or anything.

----

I'm a bit concerned. Is it possible that my material is much less pure compared to what others are getting with CEILO? Erowid says my dose today (400mg citrate / 250mg hcl) would be in the middle of the Common experience, but I really didn't feel much.

The other thing I can think of is that I always do mushrooms on Saturday, followed by cactus on Sunday. Do you guys notice any cross tolerance? I've read that people disagree on this subject. Many years ago I used a lot of 2c-e and in my opinion the tolerance was barely noticeable. I could dose 20mg on a Friday, and dose another 20mg on a Saturday and the experience was basically identical. From this experience I would conclude that mushrooms wouldn't reduce the effects of mescaline, but I am new to both mushrooms and mescaline, and don't have the experience.

I have about 650mg of the Bridgsii goo/brown powder left, which is equivalent to 400mg HCl. Erowid says this is the middle of the "Strong" experience.

Any suggestions for how I should proceed? I am really hesitant to throw down all 650mg. I'm not even ready to try 3.5g of mushrooms which Erowid says is the middle of the "Strong" experience. I also don't want to try redosing yet... I'm too afraid from having a bad experience redosing with mushrooms.

On the other hand, if I only took like 500mg citrate (310 hcl) and got a similar experience to that of today I think I would be bummed.

 

[Loveall]

Mushrooms the day before lessen the effects of mescaline for me.

I don't want to tell you what dose to take. I've told you my dose though and I have not had an issue with mescaline being intense. But that is just my experience.

Do you have a sitter? Someone you are comfortable with? I would set that up before going higher, especially of you abstain from all psychedelics beforehand so you feel the full dose. That's just what I would do.

Anxiety, worry is normal. All we can do if we want the experience is to commit to whatever feelings come up. I try to observe them instead of resist them. If I fail to do this, I also try to accept the fail and not bear myself up. All we can do is try.