coming down

[Parshvik Chintan]

forgive me for pulling a sgt.wow, but i thought this quote might catalyze an insightful discussion (best case scenario a couple long-winded posts from rising spirit)

In these few years we had gotten over the feeling that one experience was going to make you enlightened forever. We saw that it wasn't going to be that simple.

And for five years I dealt with the matter of "coming down." The coming down matter is what led me to the next chapter of this drama. Because after six year, I realized that no matter how ingenious my experimental designs were, and how high I got, I came down.

At one point I took five people and we locked ourselves in a building for three weeks and we took 400 micrograms of LSD every four hours. That is 2400 micrograms of LSD a day, which sounds fancy, but after your first dose, you build a tolerance; that's a refractory period. We finally were just drinking out of the bottle, because it didn't seem to matter anymore. We'd just stay at a plateau. We were very high. What happened in those three weeks in that house, no one would ever believe, including us. And at the end of the three weeks, we walked out of the house and within a few days, we came down.

And it was a terribly frustrating experience, as if you came into the kingdom of heaven and you saw how it all was and you felt these new states of awareness, and then you got cast out again, and after 2 or 300 times of this, began to feel an extraordinary kind of depression set in-a very gentle depression that whatever I knew still wasn't enough!

i have nothing of significance to say at this moment in time, but should the thread take off, and i get my thoughts in order, i will try and pitch in.

what are your thoughts on this passage?

 

[PocketLady]

I think most people who've sought spirituality in psychedelics can relate to what Ram Dass is saying here. I was the same myself when I first started tripping. I thought that if I took enough drugs I would find all of the answers I needed and my life would be wonderful. Sure, these substances can show you many things. Mushrooms, cactus and LSD have transformed my life in so many ways. They have shown me what I need to do make spiritual "progress" (for want of a much better word) but they cannot make those changes for me. They show you the door, but you have to walk through it. And as I am finding out, and as Ram Dass knows, it's a life-long (at minimum!) process.

 

[Vodsel]

Reminds me of a spanish saying - you cannot swim and guard your clothes.

I knew this guy who liked to experiment with all kinds of drugs. He was balanced and knowledgeable, and he often came up with interesting impressions after his assays. Once he decided to try heroin, and he did so a few times, then he quit. His reasoning was, "The fact I didn't give a s**t about anything when I took heroin showed me that worrying was not necessary, and learned that lesson, I stopped using". Surely it takes a strong mind to follow that, but I thought there was a few important teachings there.

One of them is, if you're altering your consciousness to escape something, or to run towards something without looking back, you're mostly doomed to failure. Because you will come down, and whatever you were fleeing will meet you right there. But if you do it anticipating the return, you're in a much better position to learn, to bring back something with you instead of simply finding something in the other side and losing it along the way.

Surely psychedelics make for a special case, but I think the main lesson remains. Even if it's not humanely possible to stay reasonably lucid during the experience, your last focus before the effects kick in, your flight plan, will greet you once you're back. It might take a while, it might require integration, but working with it and making something productive out of the experience will be easier.

Coming down and feeling frustrated is like going to a special place for holidays without realizing for a moment that you'll be back again. According to the saying I quoted, it means you should leave your clothes well covered in a place you'll remember once you come back all wet, instead of tossing them carelessly somewhere. You still risk someone stealing them, but putting them away carefully reminds you that you'll have to wear them again.

 

[Pup Tentacle]

Great respect for Ram and what he has to say.

I'm totally down with what he's saying here.

To me psychedelics are like little trampolines that allow the user to often jump high enough to see in (a)(the)(some) window of (enlightenment)(understanding)(apotheosis) but inevitably, the gravity of material reality and the user's intrinsic spiritual state pull them back below the sill of that window.

Some people may be able to see in that window all the time, but I don't think it's because of any material substance.

This is why, for me, psychedelics will never replace meditation, but seem to work very well in conjunction with it (not at the same time).

I believe Aldous Huxley called psychedelics "a gratuitous grace" that is... helpful, but not necessary to furthering one's enlightenment.

 

[Parshvik Chintan]

i can especially relate to the end of the passage

And it was a terribly frustrating experience, as if you came into the kingdom of heaven and you saw how it all was and you felt these new states of awareness, and then you got cast out again, and after 2 or 300 times of this, began to feel an extraordinary kind of depression set in-a very gentle depression that whatever I knew still wasn't enough!

not so much the depression as the frustration.
i am a an awfully terrible person (as are most the furless apes), who continually can glimpse how horrifically bad myself can be.
yet i seem unable to make any permanent changes of great significance (oh, i am improving, slowly but surely, but over all, i am still very much a slave to the ego).

the real kicker is, even the book (remember: be here now) there is no clear resolution to this issue (save going to india and meeting a fantastical guru who lifts you out of the slum).

i don't really consider my drug use to be related at all to escapism (though that could just be my escapist delusion talking), but rather as a yard-stick to compare where i am now, to where i could be (regarding self-improvement).

i know better, so why don't i act better?

where does one go, now that he has come down?

 

[ajscent]

Interesting stuff , ram dass does look a bit crazy and deluded to me , constant grin and this trippy hand movements as if to inspire awe to people. Fast wit to keep his audience . Not a fan of him one bit and bet he's taken many a follower up the wrong path with his fun filled travels. He's a bit like a drunk , drunk on the sound of himself if u ask me

 

[Kazoo...]

I am reminded of the story "Flowers for Algernon" sometimes.

 

[Pup Tentacle]

I am reminded of the story "Flowers for Algernon" sometimes.

wow... excellent comparison :thumb_up:

 

[doodlekid]

Three weeks on acid is really a long time. Has anybody here ever tried something like that?

And it was a terribly frustrating experience, as if you came into the kingdom of heaven and you saw how it all was and you felt these new states of awareness, and then you got cast out again, and after 2 or 300 times of this, began to feel an extraordinary kind of depression set in-a very gentle depression that whatever I knew still wasn't enough!

If it would be possible to do stuff in those three weeks that last for a while. Those things that normally stay undone.

So when getting down you get the effects of those things that have been done.

Maybe that would be a rewarding cure for that kind of depression.

Btw nice comparison

 

[Parshvik Chintan]

...does anyone else feel like they are cursed to take a hallucinogen every other week simply to not be a shitty human, and also to be able to enjoy life?

why is this seemingly impossible a task without the aid of tryptamines?

is there an answer outside of meeting a fantastical guru who is ostensibly a mind-reader and immune to LSD and arsenic?

 

[hug46]

...does anyone else feel like they are cursed to take a hallucinogen every other week simply to not be a shitty human, and also to be able to enjoy life?

I think that realising that you are a shitty human being and, more importantly, being ok with it are the first steps to leading an enjoyable life.

yet i seem unable to make any permanent changes of great significance (oh, i am improving, slowly but surely, but over all, i am still very much a slave to the ego).

This may not be a popular statement but i think the quest for self improvement is being a slave to the ego. Not that i see anyithing wrong with that.

Self improvement and growing up, it"s a losers game. When you think your"e a better man, youv"e ended up the same. Censoring our daydreams, when will our lives begin?

-Thatcher on Acid.

 

[entheogenadvocate]

...does anyone else feel like they are cursed to take a hallucinogen every other week simply to not be a shitty human, and also to be able to enjoy life?

why is this seemingly impossible a task without the aid of tryptamines?

is there an answer outside of meeting a fantastical guru who is ostensibly a mind-reader and immune to LSD and arsenic?

I can relate to what you are saying here, and have felt the feeling many times. It is frustrating when you you have one of those "Aha!" moments during an entheogenic journey, only to return to your habitual behavior days, hours, or even minutes after the experience ends.

I've been consciously working to mitigate this cycle by writing down specific goals for each psychedelic experience. In addition to recording my thoughts and goals, this practice helps prevent me from ever holding the GVG to my mouth "just because". I am also MUCH more likely to remember something if I write it down.

Weeks after a psychedelic experience ends, I can recall the certain issues I was working to overcome. If I have continued to grow as a result of the psychedelic experience, I feel empowered and rejuvenated that the work I'm doing with these powerful medicines is having a lasting impact, and forcing me to live a more mindful life. This provides me with a clear conscience and the courage necessary to proceed with my next entheogenic experience.

If I think about the goals of my recent journeys and realize I've completely forgotten everything I thought I had "learned", I'm forced to relive the psychedelic experience and reevaluate the decisions I'm making in my life.

I'm sure it's not impossible to be a good human without tryptamines, but it is my medicine of choice . Entheogens give me a sense of wonder at the world that day-to-day life can make me forget. It's a constant battle to apply the lessons I've learned in hyperspace to daily life, but one I'm willing to fight. I can feel the tryptamine glow whenever I realize I have consciously chosen to react to a situation in a way that conflicts with my ingrained tendencies, which allows the psychelic experiences I've had to permeate my daily life.