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Converting DMT freebase > DMT Fumarate

Migrated topic.
N

nEone

Rising Star
SWIM is a little confused after reading the various threads on the FASA method - SWIM already has DMT freebase that was pulled via an A/B extraction. He'd like to convert it to DMT fumarate.

The stickie'd post says:
Here’s the quick tech:

1) Completely dissolve 1000 mg of freebase DMT in 50 ml of acetone.
2) Completely dissolve 309 mg of fumaric acid in another batch of 50 ml of acetone.
3) Mix for 1 minute and evaporate at room temperature to give DMT fumarate.
Click to expand...

But other threads have said that evaporation is not the right thing to do.

SWIM believes that the proper procedure would be to add the FASA - the DMT fumarate will precipitate out as insoluble salt crystals - the acetone solution is then decanted off of the salt crystals - and they are allowed to air-dry, via evaporation of any residual acetone. The majority of the acetone solution itself is to be discarded because it's essentially an FASA solution now.

Correct?

Also - the DMT freebase and and acetone SWIM has available are all several months old - the DMT has been stored in an airtight container in a refrigerator - and the acetone has been stored with the cap on tightly in the garage. The DMT is a very slightly tan/off-white color and is considered to be relatively clean as it burns off with no residue.

Should the age/storage method etc. be an issue here - or will dissolving the DMT freebase in acetone essentially wash it of any impurities that may have leached in over time?
 
SWIM thinks that you are confused. you likely have freebase not HCl. You would have had to specificaly made the HCl salt from the freebase in order to have DMT HCl. When you add the FASA the alkaloid is in the freebase form dissolved in an organic solvent. DMT fumarate is insoluble in acetone and organic solvents so when you add the FASA it precipitates out and collects on the bottom along with a large amount of unreacted fumaric acid. The acetone then contains some unreacted fumaric acid and nothing else aside form impurities and is typically discarded. The crystals in the flask are then collected and cleaned to remove unreacted acid. Either water or acetone can be used to clean up the impure crystals. Water works the best there are severeal tecks just check them out.

How did SWIM make the HCl salt? The product from an A/B extraction is the freebase. SWIM would have had to convert this into the HCl salt after the obtained the freebase. A task which is apparently not very easy to do and still get nice white crystals but it is possible. Also if SWIM has the HCl what does she want with the fumerate? There is little difference just keep it as is. If SWIM really wants the fum SWIM would recommend coverting the HCl to the freebase and then adding the correct molar ratio of fumaric acid dissolved in an appropriate solvent. BUt SWIM thinks that you actually have the freebase.
 
Yes - DMT FREEBASE - not DMT hcl - SWIM's been doing too much reading -and not enough thinking prior to posting. ugh.

So - the DMT freebase is dissolved in acetone - the FASA is added and the DMT fumarate drops out - at that point the acetone/FASA solution is decanted off of the DMT fumarate and discarded - and the DMT fumarate is allowed to dry. The water wash then removes any excess fumarate salt.

So in truth, weighing out EXACTLY 309mg of fumarate salt isn't essential because the excess will be taken care of at a later step - the key is just to make sure ENOUGH fumarate salt is used so that all of the freebase DMT is converted?

I went ahead and edited the thread's title and content so that the question is clear for future reference.
 
Hey man it is all good. This stuff can be confusing at first but soon you will have a great understanding of some fundamental chemical principles. Good luck and Welcome.

The DMT fumarate goes into the water which is decanted from the water insoluble Fumaric acid. The water is then allowed to slowly evaporate and nice large crystals of DMT fumarate crystalize out and are collected. The FASA crystals should be washed several times 2-3.

The exact amount does not matter. One just wants a saturated fumaric acid solution. The molar ratio is irrelevant in the FASA tech. However if making crystals another way this is important although with the DMT (or other alkaloids) you can always do a water wash to remove the goods from the excess acid if using fumaric acid.

Not sure about the title.
 
Thanks a lot for your reply Bufo - while we're at it - one other question about fumarate salts - the FASA sticky-post says:

DMT fumarate is best for snorting, taking sublingually, injecting, taking intra-rectally, or taking orally with an MAOI.
Click to expand...

The wording of that statement makes it unclear if an MAOI is needed for snorting the fumarate. Can anyone comment about snorting as a method of assay? SWIM has searched for reports, but can't get a good idea of duration/intensity/dose, or whether an MAOI is needed.
 
SWIM thinks snorting dmt is a waste and painful and not that enjoyable at all...you need to snort like 150mg to get any sort of worth while effects..and thats a LOT of dmt..but no..you dont need an maoi for snorting dmt..although it would probably extend the experience...
 
Much of this statement is basically incorrect. The only thing that fum would be advantageous for is Injections. Orally the freebase is fine as it is the unionized freebase that is absorbed by the intestine. So unless SWIY is going to inject it the freebase is fine. Fumarate will store longer however if the freebase is kept dark and cold it will keep for ever. As Jorkest said snorting DMT is a waste but the freebase could be snorted as well as again the unionized form is absorbed.

If taking orally no matter what form one needs an MAOI. Tetrahydroharmaline should also be added to this combo for beautiful effects. THH has some MAOI activity but it also has some unknown activity that certainly potentiates the effects of tryptamine hallucinogens. Its effect is diff from a plain MAOI.
 
Well - that's a disappointment - SWIM was hoping to find a way to enter the DMT zone that would be somewhere between smoking and taking orally - since smoking has proven to be pretty harsh on SWIM (he's a non-smoker) - and the oral 'huasca has been described as a very long trip.

Strange that snorting would require such a big dose...usually that's the opposite.

SWIM does have some THH - so...onward and upward.

Thanks for the replies!
 
Here I am, never having "smoked" DMT, giving advice. But, since I'm worried about the legendary harshness I've been trying to learn about the issue. What I've found:

1) DMT should never be "smoked," but always vaporized. I think if it gets burnt it's extremely harsh (and loses much potentcy).
2) It can be smoothened by melting it into a soothing herb. See changa threads.
3) Harshness can be a reflection of the extraction and purification methods used. Steps that leave NaOH to collect with your DMT cause extremely harsh spice. Consider doing a final clean-up and recrystalization that will clean out any leftover NaOH.
 
If your DMT is re-crystalized it will be a nice clear to white crystalline material. If this is vaporized correctly as stated above, one will have minimal harshness (relative). Another thing SWIM noticed is that people get used to the flavor. It is bad at first but you can learn to ignore it (as with anything). But if it is pure it is significantly less although there is still a minor harshness. This is the one drawback of smoking DMT, try a water pipe.

It is unlikely that any step that uses an organic solvent will leave a significant amount of NaOH in the product. Unless you leave some of the black water in it and then evaporate EWWW!! If you re-crystalize with naptha or hexane you will get a nice pure product.

Also the leaf bed method (as suggested above) may reduce the harshness or mask it. Dissolve the DMT in a solvent and put it onto SWIM's favorite herb. Mint or tobacco... and then smoke this out of a water pipe.
 
From what SWIM recalls, NaOH contamination is generally somewhat of a common myth. He recalls that NaOH will not even burn or vaporize, so most likely when SWIYs freak out about the harshness of their vapor, it's probably simply due to improper smoking methods.
 
SWIM is pretty positive that the DMT freebase he pulled is free from NaOH - he was careful to not transfer even a small amount of the black liquid over and his crystals are a nice off-white. Perhaps a xylene wash would help.

SWIM was under the impression that smoking DMT through a water-pipe was ineffectual.

Would sublingual THH lower the amount of DMT required for insufflation to be effective?

What would the expected duration be for an oral does of say, 50mg THH + 50mg DMT fumarate?
 
That is also a myth. Freebase DMT is not soluble in water and using a water pipe is very effective.

THH may decrease the doe of insulated DMT needed but probably not. Snorting is reported to not very effective at all. Give it a try. Snorting an MAOI with it may also help.

Oral dose:
You will also need an MAOI in that mix. Everyone is different. There is a great amount of variability with pharmausca but just with 50mg THH and oral DMT will likely not be near enough. THH is a very weak MAOI. People take over 300mg THH with oral DMT. In combo with an MAOI one will need significantly less THH.

A good starter test would be 150mg Harmaline, 40mg THH, and 50-60 mg DMT. But everyone is diff SWIY may need less it is hard to say.
 
Well - the Freebase to fumarate conversion seems to have worked just as described - a water wash left clear/white needlelike crystals. SWIM only did a 500mg batch because he didn't want to risk a full gram on an untested process.

With the understanding of the fact that everyone has a different metabolism - how long would SWIY expect the above "40mg THH, 150mg Harmaline, 50-60mg DMT" oral assay to last? SWIM thinks he's read 2-3 hours.

Eh - that's a different thread, really. Suffice to day, the freebase to fumarate conversion listed in the sticky'd FASA thread worked great. It's just a pity that the desired intention of the conversion turns out to not be viable. SWIM will probably try a 40mg insufflation - just to see.
 
150mg of harmaline is going a bit overboard...100mg of harmaline is enough for full MAO inhibition..if you really want harmaline to be your main maoi use 80mg harmaline and 40mg THH

sorry for putting this in two places..but some people may look at one and not the other..but both threads seem like the place to put it

so SWIM just had an idea...his bottle of fumaric acid says that its soluble in water at .63g/100ml at 25C

so he was thinking if he put 150mg of fumaric acid in 25ml of water...and then added that to the spice saturated d-limonene..that spice fumarate would migrate to the acidic water solution..and then when evaporated you would have spice fumarate crystals instead of gooey sticky acetate spice..

how does this sound to you folk??
Click to expand...
 
100mg Harmaline is not enough for SWIM nor is 120mg. Everyone is different. Some people seem to be very sensitive however many are not. There are a variety of phenotypes when it comes to MAO levels. SWIM has taken 120mg harmine, 40 mg THH, and 35mg DMT with only minimal effects.

QUOTE: " Eh - that's a different thread, really. Suffice to day, the freebase to fumarate conversion listed in the sticky'd FASA thread worked great. It's just a pity that the desired intention of the conversion turns out to not be viable. SWIM will probably try a 40mg insufflation - just to see."

I am not sure which thread you are talking about but DMT fumarate is highly water soluble whereas fumaric acid is not water soluable ( minimal) thus if you wash your crystals with water the DMT fum will dissolve in it. This is covered in the FASA alteration of the Final step thread...
The DMT fumarate remains in the water whereas the white crystals that are left behind are not DMT but fumaric acid that has not reacted.... SWIY wants to take the water and allow it to slowly evaporate this will cause the fum to crystalize out it to large yellow-clear crystal clusters.

Fum acid is very INSOLUABLE in water. This fact can be used to clean up the impure FASA crystals...
 
no no..thats what SWIM is saying..SWIM is trying to get a more workable product from d-limonene...so he put 150mg of fumaric acid in ~25ml of warm water..and most of it got absorbed...

what he PLANS on doing..is adding the water to saturated d-limonene..and stirring it like you would if you had used vinegar...the freebase dmt will convert into fumaric salt and go into the water...then you take that water and evaporate it..leaving nice dmt fumarate crystals
 
well the water is about 25-30C

SWIM is doing a 80g batch of root bark...so the first wash with acidic water can get a total of 300mg of the dmt out...if he uses the 25ml-150mg fumaric acid water solution..so he will do a total of three...

hes just been trying to figure out a way to pull the dmt from d-limonene without using vinegar..because he has had a lot of problems with the sticky acetate goo...this way he can get a nice powder that can be weighed and then converted to freebase again easily..so SWIM is gonna try this out soon..and will get back to everyone
 
So SWIM is doing his second fumaric acid saturated water (FASW) wash...this is ~25ml water plus ~150mg fumaric acid..

the first wash is in the dehydrator...but when he put the second 25ml in the d-limonene...it took almost ALL the yellow out of the d-limonene that had been there from the mimosa soak...

the first wash wasnt even close to being more yellow than the d-limo..but this was is most certainly much more yellow..SWIM is very very very excited about this...but hes gonna go off and have some food...so wish him luck..but he will report back on when the first FASW is done evaporating and he has weighed the material...hes hoping to have 450mg of dmt fumarate..but we shall have to wait and see
 
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