I wasn't thinking of clay tablets. Although we may have a genetic peculiarity that causes most cultures to rely heavily on scriptures of some kind.Saidin said:
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could WE be the problem and the answer?
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burnt said:
Nowhere did I say that humans do not have innate traits, I believe they do.
I am saying that morality is not an innate trait, that it is solely a function of society and civilization. If it is not, then we have to accept that other animal species have morality.
polytrip said:
Then what are you attributing morality to? What would be the "origin" of morality such that a good portion of it can be agreed upon across so many varied cultures?
I would disagree that searching for some meaning to existence is a genetic "peculiarity".
^^Gotcha my confusion.
Saidin said:
As social creatures with a common genetic root, a good portion of the same group selective pressures would appear in every culture. Cultures that developed behavioral norms that addressed these specific areas outperform those that don't. Adaptive groups take up the successful norms and thrive, those that don't fail.
I don't see how one would test if searching for a meaning to existence is a genetic peculiarity, a biological spandrel, but also no reason to reject it, other than personal preference.
We SHOULD accept that other animal species have morality because it is a fact. I know it's not a very convenient fact for many people, but a fact it most certainly is.Saidin said:
Animals sacrifice themselves for others, they share precious goods, they protect others against harm, they get upset when confronted with unfairness, etc.
You are right polytrip and this is fact in reguards to at least cetaceans..if you take a look at the social life of orcas for instance it is quite apparent they are on a socially sophisticated level and do exhibit traits analagous to what we could call morality etc..
Im not sure about the instance of things like wolf packs etc..they do have obvious social structures but it seems based more on respect for dominance..
Dolphins actally are known to do things such as save humans from shark attacks..that to me is a sort of moral behaviour..but I cant see a wolf saving a human from another wolf attack..unless the wolf is someones pet and has a strong bond to the one being attacked..would that be a sort of moral behaviour?
Im not sure about the instance of things like wolf packs etc..they do have obvious social structures but it seems based more on respect for dominance..
Dolphins actally are known to do things such as save humans from shark attacks..that to me is a sort of moral behaviour..but I cant see a wolf saving a human from another wolf attack..unless the wolf is someones pet and has a strong bond to the one being attacked..would that be a sort of moral behaviour?
^^Dolphins also rape each other.
^^ they also been observed killing other animals and fellow dolphins for pleasure. so have bonobos and chimps, documented case of gorillas raping humans ext.... animals do strange and dark things just like we human do.
im not sure if morals comes into play with animals. maybe.
im not sure if morals comes into play with animals. maybe.
humans do both of those things as well..doesn't mean we dont exhibit moral behaviours.
humans do both of those things as well..doesn't mean we dont exhibit moral behaviours.
My point is simply animals do things that humans do both things we regard as good and bad.
i guess you would need to know if the animal knew it was doing wrong but proceeded anyway to say that they have morals like we do.
yes but behavior can be labeled moral but it doesn't mean the creature of that behavior has morals.fractal enchantment said:
So they are truly moral creatures. If they would only do nice things it would be more like running off a program, but apparently they, just like we (and that makes us moral creatures) can choose between doing what's right and doing what's wrong.olympus mon said:
yes but arent you assuming an animal knows they are doing "good or bad"? what if there just being animals and dont have the ability to see a greater picture that would show a wrong act.polytrip said:
i agree theyt are making a choice but i doubt they see things as good or bad.
olympus mon said:
Yeah, this suggests to me that most humans have as little choice as animals in their approach to life. I knew a dog raised in loving homes and would intentionally do things it knew it would get in trouble for. Nothing ever really violent, but it totally had a sneaky character.
Not that we should allow this to let ourselves off the hook, but with others, maybe they really can't help the way they behave a lot of the time.
Oh, they do.olympus mon said:
Studies show that many animals are capable of complex reasoning when it comes to moral choices. Their level of understanding in social relations and forms of 'trade' is very advanced.
Now, humans have always hidden behind our intellect, to claim our uniqueness and therefore to be excused in how we deal with animals.
It would be weird to say that, now animals appear to have an intellect that's often even pretty advanced, it would actually be our instincts, that make us morally aware. Because instincts among animals have been acknowledged all along.
Morality is a mixture of instincts and intellect, and both animals as humans have that combination.
yeah I have spent time around orcas..I worked for a time in an aquarium as a teenager becasue I wanted to be a marine biologist and my fathers cousin is a biologist who works with dolphins in california..If you spend any ammount of time around these creatures it becomes apparent they are incredibly intelligent, and science has already shown that they posess a brain capacity approaching that of a human. The fact that dolphins both commit acts of "murder" as well as many documented cases of them saving infant humans etc from shark attacks makes me think that there is some sort of individual decision making going on there..they do seem to be making a conscious choice..there are humans who do horrible things and humans who do good things as well, we really arent any different. Im using the example of cetaceans only because it is the easiest example since they have been shown to have such large brain capacity on par or close to that of humans..in the case of other animals with lower brain capacity the argument that they cant really make a distinction ever might hold more weight, but in the case of dolphins it really doesnt make sense on a biological level.
Orcas are so advanced they compose entire songs that tell the oral history of the pod, songs to which they basically update on a yearly basis..they have distinct dialects within each pod even in the same regions...
"In Killer Whale’s Pod, They assist each other in raising Calves. Killer Whale and her mates learn their dialect of Orca language from their Mothers. In addition, Mother Killer Whale also teaches her Calf proper pod behavior. Meanwhile, the ancient Matriarch ensures that All learn their pod’s history and culture."
..from here http://funkman.org/animal/mammal/killerwhale.html
We are talking about a mammal so advanced that they have seperate dialects and can comprehend things such as the passage of time, which is evident in the fact that they value such things as the history of the pod to which they belong to and the culture of that pod..dolphins of which have actaully learned english, can understand complex questions and answer through computers(obviousily they cant speak like us), yet no human speaks dolphin...dolphins have also been found to mate for life..they are comoplex creatures capable of a experiencing a complex range of emotions and capable of complex decision making..
en.wikipedia.org
Orcas are so advanced they compose entire songs that tell the oral history of the pod, songs to which they basically update on a yearly basis..they have distinct dialects within each pod even in the same regions...
"In Killer Whale’s Pod, They assist each other in raising Calves. Killer Whale and her mates learn their dialect of Orca language from their Mothers. In addition, Mother Killer Whale also teaches her Calf proper pod behavior. Meanwhile, the ancient Matriarch ensures that All learn their pod’s history and culture."
..from here http://funkman.org/animal/mammal/killerwhale.html
We are talking about a mammal so advanced that they have seperate dialects and can comprehend things such as the passage of time, which is evident in the fact that they value such things as the history of the pod to which they belong to and the culture of that pod..dolphins of which have actaully learned english, can understand complex questions and answer through computers(obviousily they cant speak like us), yet no human speaks dolphin...dolphins have also been found to mate for life..they are comoplex creatures capable of a experiencing a complex range of emotions and capable of complex decision making..
Cetacean intelligence - Wikipedia
i guess i can see that. wolves after a scrap show remorse and try to make amends. then i guess its even stranger that animals choose killing or other unfortunate acts.polytrip said: