Defatting Questions (n-oxide, phalaris, emulsion)

[AspersionDetergent]

hello all,

a defat seems a fairly simple process so there normally isn't too much in-depth analyzing (that i could find, and i've certainly tried) but there are a couple things i know i personally could use a little clearing up on

i was wondering if dmt n-oxide would get caught up in a defat or if it would stay with the n,n dmt in the acidic aqueous solution.

also would there be any reason to try and rewash a yellow saved defat? is the defat yellow from oils and plant gunk, or might there be "impurities" that one may wish to save such as jungle properties or n-oxide? (and might this be any different in the case of a phalaris arundinacea extraction which has possible extra content??)



also, i assume i still want to avoid an emulsion while defatting so as not to get the aqueous caught in the solvent correct?

because one time someone got a hefty emulsion and just filtered it off with the rest of the defat solvent (xylene in this case) and over a few days the "bubbles" seemed to congeal into what looked like fatty plant liposuction mess. and as what looked like a glob of fat it made one wonder if this was actually the purpose of the defat?

so are you actually supposed to see "fat" in a defat or just tinted solvent?

any help would be GREAtLY appreciated!! thanks everyone for your time

 

[endlessness]

dmt n-oxide would not migrate to the solvent, when mixing with an acidic solution.. basically no alkaloid would, so no need to try to save the defat solvent.

You arent supposed to see anything in the solvent, except it might get darker.

Personaly I would say, forget defats, they are a very wasteful outdated process (plus theres all this emulsion issue). It is way more efficient to recrystallize the product afterwards if necessary, since you use a tiny amount of solvent in comparison. Also fumarate salt precipitation such as with FASA or FASI (check out BLAB tek for example) will make the alkaloids precipitate from the solvent and immediately separate them from excess fats, so again, another much more efficient way of getting rid of fats.

 

[AspersionDetergent]

so any active alkaloid is acidic at this point then...

can you mix say an hcl aqueous and a citric acid aqueous and extract them together or should this be two different extracts?

thank you so very much, would you still recommend this for phalaris as well?

and also, when extracting phalaris one tends to use a bulk of material and in order to not waste tons of solvent it gets boiled down while still acidic quite a bit. in many teks for mimosa, they cover the top when heating and don't let any boil off..... would this extra added step of boiling down cause more n-oxide?? (because of more oxygen contact)

or is n-oxide only produced when drying the solvent at the end and during storage?

again thank you

 

[endlessness]

Ive never extracted phalaris but if I did, according to the experience of others in this forum, I would definitely do a fumarate precipitation with FASI or FASA. The thing with phalaris is if your phalaris has any significant amount of dmt in the first place, it might, or it might not. Also we dont know about gramine content. Is it wild phalaris, or? Merck index says gramine isnt soluble in naphtha, so I would try recrystallizing whatever you have in naphtha once or twice to try to get rid of gramine (or just pull with naphtha in the first place)

What do you mean with mix hcl acqueous and citric acid acqueous solution? Why would you do that? In any case I dont see any harm in putting them toghether

I dont think anybody ever really analyzed the rate of dmt oxide formation, but I think its very little in an acidic solution. Ive boiled down large quantities of mimosa when doing an A/B and the yield of dmt was very good, havent noticed any issues with it, so you're good to go.

Good luck, and dont forget to let us know how it goes!

 

[AspersionDetergent]

well the original plan was to use
hcl
lye
naptha for freeze precip
xylene for defat and then again to get anything else interesting left behind after naptha washes, hopefully including n-oxide which could be later on converted with zinc when zinc is finally obtained

sorry for confusion but i ask about mixing the acids simply because one ran out of hcl but still has plenty of citric acid and vinegar for acetic lying around. got roughly half way through the plant material available acidifying straining and reducing with the hcl and didn't know if one should just extract that and then start over with a new acid

one has had succesful extracts in the past crystalizing with naptha alone with wild young fresh phalaris.(fields of it nearby)... though with an obnoxious yield of approx. 100 mg per kilo philaris arundinacea used the main issue was the low yield and i assumed the key to making it more worth wile might be getting any oxide out and converting.

no fumaric acid present at the moment so one'll have to stick with the plan for now, but would certainly try this in the near future and share any results. any other tips on maybe doing it this way?

also, is dmt fumarate easily convervted to a smokable freebase?? no maoi's on hand neither.....


i couldn't of asked for clearer quicker help, can't wait to be able to give back now

 

[endlessness]

Yeah your plan sounds ok I think... There should be no problem at all using another acid and then mixing everything up. Did you bioassay the product you have extractd in the past ? What phalaris is it?

DMT fumarate is very easily converted to smokable freebase, the wonderful thing about it is that you can crystallize out of water, so the last thing that touches your alkaloids is water with sodium carbonate, not a petrochemical solvent. Check BLAB tek for the conversion information.

Good luck!

 

[AspersionDetergent]

sorry taking so long to respond but you know how daily life can get in the way

but yes have tried what i extracted in the past and it was no doubt in my opinion active material. however the yields were extremely low and i wasn't able to get enough to see anything beyond threshold effects. but felt at the time sure that it was because i have some experience with very low dose effects. oh, and i could smell and taste it afterwords if you know what i mean

thanks again for all your help! i hope i don't over do it on the thanks it's just i am so appreciative to have some ones help in this. it means alot to me

btw, what is the boards standing the term SWIM?

edit: oh and i believe it is phalaris arundinacea which grows wild near buffalo, ny.