Did I just been scammed ? Ayahuasca retreat Peru, 3 ceremonies report

[Sabnock1990]

Incorrect spractral. There is absolutely no Tyramine interactions/reactions with reversible MAO-A inhibition, like from Harmalas or Moclobemide. The diet has been debunked, and has even been exposed by many professionals involved in the traditional and scientific Ayahuasca realm. There are a few reasons why diet is not an issue. First of all, the MAO-A inhibition is reversible and selective for MAO-A, does not inhibit MAO-B, the duration of the inhibition is very short (lasting from a few minutes to 2 hours max, which is provable by trying to consume DMT and if it's consumed too late gut MAO-A will no longer be inhibited and DMT will not be orally active because MAO-A would be working like usual and would therefore break down any Tyramine afterwards and most certainly would not last into the next few days), also it's been said Tyramine is competitive and can actually displace reversible MAO-A inhibition if need be.

The MAOI diet applies to pharmaceutical irreversible and non-selective MAO-A and MAO-B inhibiting MAOI's, ONLY! Not to RIMA's like Harmalas or Moclobemide. RIMA's are far safer than MAOI's, and only require you to be careful about drug to drug interactions, but even then, they've had 3 studies where they were able to mix an SSRI with reversible MAO-A inhibition using Moclobemide which were safe and successful though it is definitely not recommended to combine SSRI's with RIMA's, though it can be safely done with the dosages worked out, but Moclobemide is slightly different than Harmalas, but as far as reversible MAO-A inhibition goes, it seems to be a good bit safer than was once presumed.

Eating a horrible diet while consuming MAO-A inhibition from Harmalas or Moclobemide MOST CERTAINLY will NOT kill you or harm you in any way, and saying a diet is not necessary is NOT irresponsible and dangerous, as this information is pretty available and well known now, it's just a few clueless people still regurgitate the same outdated misinformation about RIMA's confusing them with MAOI's. The Ayahuasca diet/dieta has nothing to do with Tyramine or the MAOI diet, it has to do with purification, sensitization and detoxification, nothing to do with interactions, or blockages, or reactions from things within the foods we eat.

 

[Sabnock1990]

Also keep in mind, headaches do NOT equal Tyramine headaches. Headaches can be common and can occur randomly with MAO-A inhibition in general, or can be caused by dehydration/fasting/purging, or can be caused by the Harmala's vasodilation, or the Harmala's Acetylcholinesterase inhibition, but is NOT caused by Tyramine when it comes to Harmalas or Moclobemide, and especially not in the days after since gut MAO-A inhibition is very short in duration. People, including myself, have even eaten things right before or after consuming a heavy dosage of Harmalas, and no interactions have been noticed, and no interactions will occur for anyone else regardless of differences in body chemistry. I myself have consumed and like to consume Harmalas on a regular/daily basis, and i've consumed them for years, in heavy dosages, and built up the reverse tolerance to do away with the Harmala-related side-effects like the nausea/vomiting/diarrhea and clean up the body load and all, and still ate right before or after consuming the Harmalas and never had a food reaction/interaction, even with supposed contraindicated foods.

The MAO-A inhibition of the Harmalas or Moclobemide ensures that no Tyramine reaction will occur, ever, it's impossible. What makes MAOI's so different, is mainly the irreversible inhibition which knocks out the MAO enzymes for at least a couple weeks, not merely a few minutes to a couple hours like with Harmalas or Moclobemide, but they also inhibit both enzymes irreversibly which is why there are Tyramine reactions since it can't be broken down by MAO-A or MAO-B, but reversible inhibitors do not have that problem. Though if you'd like, you could simply abstain from certain foods for a few hours before and after consuming the Harmalas and you'd be absolutely fine.

 

[Sabnock1990]

Also, be aware spractral, that Harmalas potently inhibit CYP1A2 (as well as CYP2D6, maybe others), which can potently potentiate Caffeine, Theobromine and other CYP1A2 (or CYP2D6) substrates. So Coffee/Caffeine, or raw Cacao in combination with Harmalas, while not harmful, will be potentiated and you may suffer side-effects due to the increase in dosage. I've drank Coffee earlier on in the day quite a few times and consumed Harmalas at night, it would give me a bit of a headache, stiff neck and some body aching, but that's it, whereas pure Caffeine i've had many times with my Aya and it's been fine so long as i stick to the right dosage of Caffeine and don't overdo it due to the potentiation. Raw Cacao should be similar since it too contains Caffeine, but also Theobromine, both of which are metabolized by CYP1A2 and potentiated by the CYP1A2 inhibition, and may have some other chemicals in there that may not synergize well with the Aya. Some things don't synergize well with Aya, some do, doesn't make them dangerous though. Processed chocolate is fine though.

 

[Sabnock1990]

Regardless, people like to err on the side of caution, and i understand and agree with that, be cautious, just don't be too cautious, and try to figure things out more than assume things. Not only is the information about this stuff out there for our researching, but it can also be proven by self-experimentation. I'm not saying certain foods don't agree with you, not at all, i'm sure some do, some probably do for me most likely, but when it comes to diet, do it for you, not for the Aya, because you don't need to do it for the Aya as there's really no reason to unless you just want to, but when it comes to diet you should make healthier decisions/choices for yourself, to help you be healthier and feel better and more in tune with things, do it for your body/brain/mind, not because of some non-existent dietary interaction.

I'm all for people cleaning up their diets, all i'm saying is that there's no necessary dietary restrictions needed for consuming/working with Ayahuasca, in and of itself. In a traditional setting it's different and they have their reasons, but their reasons aren't due to Tyramine or negative interactions between diet and the medicine, it's about you and your body.

 

[Spiralout]

Thank you for your long winded response.

I did not mean just food when I used the word diet; I really meant anything that you are ingesting including, but not limited to, drugs and drinks. I was actually thinking of coffee and other stimulants as I know that other people along with myself have had negative effects from combining them with harmalas. That doesn't mean it will kill you but it also doesn't mean that just because it works for you that it will work for everyone else.

You mention taking ssris with moclobemide... First of all, obviously harmalas are not moclobemide. Secondly, regardless of what research you have seen , there has not been any research done on harmalas and ssris as far as I know. Obviously you seem to have researched this more thoroughly than I have, which is a prudent thing to do considering you say you take high doses of harmalas on a regular basis, but the fact stand that taking ssris, along with a list of other chemicals, with harmalas is potentially very dangerous.

Once again I will reiterate that taking harmalas in a careless way, and especially with ssris and other serotonin or dopamine releasing chemicals, is a very bad idea and terrible advice.

One of the ideologies of this forum is harm reduction and regardless of that telling people they can "eat whatever they want" is ridiculous. You eat pills, no?

 

[Sabnock1990]

Oh no doubt, i completely agree, i was not in any was suggesting or recommending SSRI's with Harmalas or Moclobemide, simply saying that reversible MAO-A inhibition is quite a bit safer than most seem to think, not to say it's without it's possible consequences of course but they are rather safe, still wouldn't be a good idea to mix things with it you're not supposed to though. And yes Moclobemide and Harmalas are different, but i was strictly speaking of the reversible MAO-A inhibition which is the same for both Harmalas and Moclobemide, though THH in Caapi is a weak SRI but i'm not referring to THH, strictly to Harmine and Harmaline.

When i say you can eat whatever you want, that's true, you can, food wise, Tyramine wise, you can eat whatever. As far as Coffee goes, i've personally mixed Coffee with Harmalas and found it not to synergize well and caused me a headache, stiff neck and some shoulder/upper back pain, but nothing dangerous/harmful. Pure Caffeine though like is in soda drinks, i've had with nearly all of my Aya/Pharma experiences, using Harmalas or Moclobemide, and never encountered an issue and things seemed to synergize pretty well, though as i've pointed out in my earlier posts, Harmalas potently inhibit CYP1A2 which metabolizes Caffeine (and Theobromine) and as such they (and other CYP1A2 substrates) will be greatly potentiated so not much of the CYP1A2 substrate would be needed for full effects, so be cautious and start low if adding any CYP1A2 or CYP2D6 substrates in the mix with Harmalas (or Moclobemide).

I never said to be careless with Harmalas or MAO-A inhibition in general, be cautious/safe, just don't be too cautious because it's not warranted for the most part, and especially when it comes to diet (as in the foods we eat, and the whole Tyramine thing). I do have a lot of experience with Harmalas, i've looked at all the research and forums and groups and videos out there having to do with all of this Aya stuff so i'm pretty well informed and i would not put any information out there which others can't verify for themselves (through research or personal experimentation), nor would i say anything that could possibly put someone's life at risk, just trying to be informative and possibly help to reduce the spread of misinformation on the net about the whole diet thing.

 

[Mr&Mrs McShulfman]

What do you think about a native who says "you can't eat a meal cooked by a women who has her menstruations for 5 months, or it's dangerous for you to eat red meat or smell perfume for three months" ?

 

[Lumina]

ShamensStamen, I can assure you 100% that, regardless of what some studies might say, or how these informations were debunked etc, tyramine poisoning is real with high enough doses of harmalas. And speaking from some years of experience myself aswell. I’d reconsider the advice a bit. Imo some care should be taken with specific foods if one wants clean effects and no sudden discomforts or other surprises along the trip. Play safe!

 

[Sabnock1990]

Lumina and i can assure you 100% that there's no Tyramine reactions even with heavy Harmala dosages. This is common knowledge now and is even talked about by many professionals in the field.

Tyramine is an issue ONLY with irreversible MAOI's (especially those that inhibit both MAO-A and MAO-B), it's the irreversibility first and foremost, alongside the inhibition of both MAO enzymes, that causes a Tyramine reaction. RIMA's only inhibit gut MAO-A, and for a very short amount of time (maximum, 2 hours). There is no Tyramine reaction, it's been debunked, stop worrying about it.

And no, headaches do not come from Tyramine days after ingesting Harmalas, before anyone says anything.

Mr&Mrs McShulfman, no, red meat is not dangerous with Ayahuasca, neither are smells.

 

[Sabnock1990]

The evidence, and first hand experimentation, proves there is no Tyramine reaction with Harmalas or with Moclobemide. Don't take my word for it, see for yourself.

 

[Lumina]

ShamensStamen, I can assure you 100% that, regardless of what some studies might say, or how these informations were debunked etc, tyramine poisoning is real with high enough doses of harmalas. And speaking from some years of experience myself aswell. I’d reconsider the advice a bit. Imo some care should be taken with specific foods if one wants clean effects and no sudden discomforts or other surprises along the trip. Play safe!

Explicitly, if you feel brave enough, eat a sausage pizza with aged cheese topping, 45 min later try predosing 200mg of harmala isolate, then smoalk about 80mg of high harmalas content changa and sprinkle some shredded bits of reed caapi vine on top of that. Report here after.

 

[Sabnock1990]

I've eaten many things, including cheese, chocolate, fermented foods like kraut, sausage, pepperoni pizza, all that, many times with heavy heavy dosages of Harmalas.

Take the Harmalas daily, let the reverse tolerance build up which will do away with the Harmala-related side-effects like nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, the body load will clean up, all that, and then eat things and see what happens. Much easier to tell what may interact with the Harmalas MAO-A inhibition when the side effects are out of the way.

 

[Lumina]

The evidence, and first hand experimentation, proves there is no Tyramine reaction with Harmalas or with Moclobemide. Don't take my word for it, see for yourself.

It happened to me once cause of reckless eating and not allowing enough time between heavy foods meal and tripping. I learend a lot from that struggle though. Now it’s wither light, fresh foods or a long enough digestion break between eating and tripping.

 

[Sabnock1990]

Once is not enough to make a firm conclusion, you need it to be reproducible, consistent in order to make a firm conclusion.

What were your symptoms? I can tell you right now if it was a headache, it was not Tyramine.

 

[Sabnock1990]

Also, i myself prefer to wait until after an experience to eat, and i typically don't eat the day of before the experience, only after, but i have eaten meals hours before, right before, and right after, and with the reverse tolerance built up definitely no side-effects due to foods.

Plus, as i said, the gut's MAO-A inhibition only lasts 2 hours, if need be, just wait a couple hours to eat and you'd be absolutely fine.

 

[Lumina]

I've eaten many things, including cheese, chocolate, fermented foods like kraut, sausage, pepperoni, pizza, all that, many times with heavy heavy dosages of Harmalas.

Take the Harmalas daily, let the reverse tolerance build up which will do away with the Harmala-related side-effects like nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, the body load will clean up, all that, and then eat things and see what happens. Much easier to tell what may interact with the Harmalas MAO-A inhibition when the side effects are out of the way.

I’m taking them very very often for the past 4 years or so. Not everything will interract with them that’s for sure, but when it comes to aged meats and aged cheese I’d rather skip eating these foods. For me at least, at close to full inhibition doses, my body rejects them like the plague and it always has been tough to deal with.

 

[Sabnock1990]

Nausea/vomiting? Body aches? Headaches?

If it's just headaches, that's not due to the foods, there's quite a few reasons headaches might appear. If it's an increase in nausea/vomiting, i could maybe see that but that's not an MAO-A interaction, that's just the purgative effects of the Harmalas, may have to do with the gut but not MAO-A inhibition for sure.

I too have taken them very often since i first started working with this stuff back in March of 2012, i've taken them pretty much daily for quite a few years, even took em' daily for 8 months straight, at heavy dosages (with the reverse tolerance built up, so i can handle the heavier dosages better), eaten many things right before and after, never noticed any issue. Talked to many people who have put the diet thing to the test (dieted and not dieted), and they never noticed any differences. Also talked to many people in traditional Aya territory, as well as those in the scientific field, and there has never been any evidence of a Tyramine reaction/interaction with Aya.

There's a lot of things going on when it comes to Harmalas/Aya, especially with DMT in the mix, that people might mistake for something to do with Tyramine, it's not Tyramine, i assure you. Even on here, those who truly experiment around have put this diet thing to the test, and have also reported similar conclusions as i and many others.

I'm not denying what you've experienced, i'm just saying it's not due to Tyramine.

 

[Lumina]

The symptoms were of heavy constricted blood vessels and, while spaced out, I could feel and visualise my body rejecting something, starting from my bloodstream and ending within my muscles. This happend more violently and almost instantly right after smoking some shredded banisteriopsis muricata vine.

 

[Sabnock1990]

Not sure what could've caused that, unless maybe you drank some Coffee earlier on in the day or had some Garlic or Ginger, as all three have caused me some odd vasoconstriction. Harmalas in general have vasodilative effects, so more Harmalas wouldn't have caused it, and Tyramine definitely wouldn't have caused it.

Have you tried building up the Harmala reverse tolerance and then eating? I know not many people would be willing to experiment and try that but it's the only way to know for sure imo, because Harmalas have other effects aside from MAO-A inhibition which could potentially cause some issues randomly/temporarily but they only manifest themselves a time or two and then vanish, ime.

 

[Sabnock1990]

I too have also smoked Harmalas, extracted Harmalas as well as Rue seed, (though not Caapi vine), even on top of an oral dose, never noticed any issues aside from an increase in nausea.