DMT, 5-MeO-DMT, and 5-HO-DMT (bufotenine) – What’s the difference?

[69ron]

DMT, 5-MeO-DMT, and 5-HO-DMT (bufotenine) are very similar compounds and they occur together in many different plants. So what’s the difference?

There are three basic elements to this class of compounds: psychedelic effects, auditory effects, and visual effects.

The psychedelic effects can include insight into the nature of life, God, the universe, the soul, and other mental and emotional events in ones life. The psychedelic effects allow one to see things in ways they have not seen them previously. A strong psychedelic may give a user a wealth of meaningful insight which can lead to both improvements in self, as well as the dreaded “bad trip” phenomenon which LSD is notorious for. Psychedelic effects can also include changes in the perception of time, increased or altered emotional responses, and increased abstract thinking.

Auditory effects included hearing sounds such as music or voices that are not actually present. This can lead to hearing the voice of God, ancient ancestors, long lost family members, or complete fantasy sounds.

Visual effects include simple visual distortions such as color enhancement, blending of colors, rotating of colors, the appearance that objects are melting, moving, bending, or morphing into one another. At the other end of the spectrum, visual effects can include complete imaginary scenes of people, places, things, etc., with full dream-like content with actual meaningful stories.

Where does DMT lie in all of this? DMT includes all three categories. In this way it is similar to psilocin, LSD, and mescaline.

Where does 5-MeO-DMT lie? 5-MeO-DMT is heavy in the psychedelic category and weak in the audio/visual category.

Where does 5-HO-DMT lie? 5-HO-DMT is heavy in the audio/visual categories and weak in the psychedelic category.


The onset and duration of effects also varies between these three compounds.

DMT is pretty short acting. Trips usually start after the first inhalation. The effects peak after about 2-5 minutes, and are usually over in about 20-30 minutes.

5-MeO-DMT is the shortest acting. Trips usually start immediately after the first inhalation. The effects peak in 1-3 minutes, and are usually over in about 10-15 minutes.

5-HO-DMT is the longest acting. Trips usually start 2-5 minutes after the first inhalation. The effects peak in 10-15 minutes, and are usually over in about 60-120 minutes.


The dosage also varies between these three compounds.

DMT is pretty weak. An average smoked dose is about 20-40 mg.

5-MeO-DMT is pretty strong. An average smoked dose is about 5-10 mg.

5-HO-DMT is also pretty strong. An average smoked dose is about 5-10 mg.


What’s interesting to note is that the more visual the compound is, the longer lasting it is, and the more psychedelic the compound is, the shorted lasting is it.

Also, the two strongest compounds are the ones that are either primarily psychedelic or primarily audio/visual, with the weakest being DMT which is a mix of all categories.

 

[lemmy]

can i ask you 69ron,what plants do you recomend for extracting bufotenine,from what you have writen about it im verry intrested in trying some time in the near future.one of the main reasons ive never attempted an extraction of phalaris is because ive always been led to believe that bufotenine is one of its main actives and that its dangerous,it seems you paint a totaly diferant picture of bufotenine than what most folk previousley believed.i recently done an extraction of wu zhu yu,hopping to find out if it was a reliable sorce for 5meo,althow from what ive read recentley i have kind of went of the idea of smoking 5meo,the experiment produced nothing anyway.allthow a lot of folk say that you can extract dmt from almoast anything i think that may be a bit of an exageration,here in the uk anyway i cant even find one single sorce of nn-dmt or 5meo.i do hope to find a sorce in the future thow incase ordering these plants from abroad becomes impossible,but i would like to find out more about bufotenine,its effects and where to extract from.

 

[69ron]

When Jonathan Ott tested pure freebase bufotenine on himself and many others, the effects were reported as extremely visionary and without unpleasant toxic side effects. This is what got SWIM initially interested in it. Prior to Ott’s study, SWIM thought bufotenine was a poison and would never consider trying it at all.

Despite popular misconceptions about bufotenine, all known animal tests show that bufotenine is less toxic than 5-MeO-DMT and DMT. The LD50 for bufotenine is about 200-300 mg/kg IP in rodents. So bufotenine is roughly as toxic as caffeine which has an LD50 of 260 mg/kg IP in rats. The LD50 for DMT is 110 mg/kg IM for mice. The LD50 for 5-MeO-DMT is 115 mg/kg IP in mice. After looking at that data and seeing what Ott said about it, SWIM decided to give it a try.

Vilca snuff has bufotenine as the main active chemical. It’s been in use as a visionary snuff for hundreds if not thousands of years and appears to be relatively safe. Vilca snuff is made from the seeds of Anadenanthera colubrina, which usually contains about 2% bufotenine. It is the best natural source for bufotenine.

Recently lots of people have tried bufotenine, mostly in the form of Anadenanthera colubrina as snuff or smoked as is. Some people experience extreme visuals and others experience mostly side effects (headaches, nausea, tension, etc.). Lots of people have also tried various crude bufotenine extracts from Anadenanthera colubrina. The impure forms produce noticeable side effects in some users: nausea, tension, headaches, etc. These side effects are mostly associated with the impurities present. Very few people have experienced the effects of pure freebase bufotenine.

Bufotenine is most effective when smoked in freebase form. As little as 10 mg can produce extremely strong visual effects without any mind oriented psychedelic effects at all.

SWIM’s experience with bufotenine is mostly with impure freebase bufotenine extracted from Anadenanthera colubrina. He’s not often gone through the trouble of purifying it. In order to purify it, you need to use ethyl acetate to freeze precipitate it and ethyl acetate is hard for SWIM to get. SWIM got some ethyl acetate once, and it works very well to freeze precipitate freeabase bufotenine. SWIM has tried using other solvents to freeze precipitate freebase bufotenine, and none of them worked for SWIM. Pure freebase bufotenine is a cleaner experience without much of the side effects of the crude extract, but SWIM isn’t very sensitive to the side effects of the crude extract and is happy with it as is. The crude extract is also a little more interesting because the impurities add a little extra kick to the effects. The crude extract is amber and contains things like serotonin, bufotenine N-Oxide, some beta-carbolines, etc., in small amount. The effect of the crude extract is similar to the effects of the whole seeds, but far stronger and with much less side effects. Some people cannot handle the crude extract and get lots of side effects from it. So you’ll usually see a big mix of results posted about it on various forums. Some people love it, others just get side effects and hate it.

Pure freebase bufotenine seems to have Viagra-like peripheral vasodilation effects and this can cause headaches, tension, nausea, and body flushing (reddening) in sensitive individuals. This seems to be very prominent when certain bufotenine salts are injected, but rare when freebase bufotenine is smoked. Bufotenine is a little different from DMT and 5-MeO-DMT in that respect. While DMT and 5-MeO-DMT cause peripheral vasoconstriction leading to a pale look on the face in large doses, bufotenine seems to cause peripheral vasodilation similar to yohimbe, niacin or Viagra, leading to a redder appearance in the skin in large doses. Bufotenine also causes vasoconstriction in some parts of the body.

In the book “Anadenanthera” By Constantino Manuel Torres, David B. Repke, page 149, animal tests have shown that injected bufotenine causes vasodilation in rats after the peak effects hit:

At 15-20 minutes, rats remained in the center of the cage in a flat posture and exhibited some ptosis (drooping eyelids), leg weakness, vasodilation, occasional head searching and sniffing....At 60 minutes, rats were slightly depressed and showed some vasodilation and piloerection (erection of the hair of the skin) with little ptosis remaining"

In another section on page 147 injected bufotenine was shown to cause:

"pulmonary vasoconstriction in the dog"

Bufotenine seems to be rather unpleasant when injected. I haven’t seen a single pleasant reaction reported for injected bufotenine. Nearly all of the positive reactions I’ve heard of people having were almost all from smoking it in freebase form.

As with pure freebase 5-MeO-DMT, there are many mixed reports about the effects of pure freebase bufotenine (5-HO-DMT). Both are known to cause side effects in sensitive people. SWIM get’s no side effects from smoking freebase 5-MeO-DMT, but gets very slight side effects from smoking freebase bufotenine. At high doses he first gets light nausea for a minute or two before the visuals start. If SWIM smokes a very large dose (15-20 mg), after about 15 minutes, SWIM gets mild and pleasant Viagra like side effects which he enjoys very much.

If you check out Viagra you’ll see that the most common side effects are the same as those of bufotenine which are caused by too much peripheral vasodilation:

“The most common side effects of VIAGRA are headache, facial flushing, and upset stomach”

That quote is taken from:

http://www.viagra.com/content/index.jsp?setShowOn=../content/index.jsp&setShowHighlightOn=../content/index.jsp

Despite the mild bodily side effects, SWIM really loves smoking bufotenine. He’s had some really fantastic closed eye visions from it that go far beyond anything he’s experienced with any other hallucinogen. SWIM has also had some very impressive auditory effects from it as well. SWIM nearly always hears music playing during the trip if the trip is strong.

The closed eye visuals are very intense and forceful, sort of electric. There’s a pulsating quality to them that is rhythmic. They don’t flow and morph like DMT or psilocin visuals do. They are more geometric and well defined and tend to flash and shift rapidly at move at intense speed. SWIM usually feels as through he’s traveling really fasts with shapes of all sorts flying by him when his eyes are closed, and then he’ll enter a true visionary state where he sees actual full visions, not just a bunch of geometric objects, but people, places, etc., and this is accompanied by sounds and music. It is very much like ayahuasca. But the closed eyed visions will easily vanish when the eyes are opened. With the eyes opened, everything looks normal, but you’ll see a bunch of geometric objects superimposed over the surroundings and sometimes you’ll see swirling snake-like patterns all over everything. You may also see objects hovering in front of you. But still everything in your environment usually looks normal and recognizable. Even at very high doses there are no psychedelic effects, so things don’t look different or warped or twisted, instead they are simply as they are, but covered in rapidly changing patterns and may pulsate in different colors. For example, your carpet will look exactly like your carpet, but you may see leaves superimposed on the carpet. The leaves will not look as though they are part of the carpet, but as if they are from another dimension that is superimposed on the carpet. In this way, the visuals are very unique.

I think the most interesting thing about bufotenine is the fact that is it visual and not at all psychedelic. I don’t know of any other hallucinogen that is like that. Nearly all of them have some sort of psychedelic effects leading to bazaar thinking patterns. For SWIM bufotenine is completely without any psychedelic effects. At extremely high doses, it’s hard for SWIM to concentrate during a few minutes in the peak, but even then, there are no psychedelic effects, just visuals all over and sounds being heard that aren’t there. There’s no sense of “going mad” at high doses as their can be with DMT or especially 5-MeO-DMT.

Hearing voices is very common with high doses of bufotenine. Hearing voices can really scare some people. Fortunately there are no psychedelic effects so this won’t cause a bad trip, but still it can be frightening to some people, especially if they hear the voice of a dead relative or something like that. SWIM always hears voices or music during the peak of a strong bufotenine trip. He doesn’t take it seriously and just enjoys it like he’s listening to a CD or watching a movie. He lays back and enjoys the show.

 

[lemmy]

this is very intresting indeed,of all the entheogens i have tried i have never experienced one that has audio/visual effects without the psychidelic effects.this could be a really good tool for people who find it hard to work with entheogens due to the fear of previous overwhelming psychidelic effects.it could also be verry usfull to help one achieve strong visuals that a lot of folk are intrested in before going on journeys with a psychidelic.i think a lot of folk embark on these journeys with the hope of meaningfull visuals only to be put of with the psychidelic headf**k effects before achieving ther goal of visuals,or visions.

and judging by the amounts needed to be cosidered a leathal dose it seems buotenine is a lot safer than was previously thaught.i had also written bufotenine of as some sort of poison and not to be messed with.i must say 69ron you make this all sound so intresting,to think ther is an entheogen out ther where one could achieve the effects of going on a journy without having to commit yourself to it,somtimes i feel a psychidelic can make someone so confused that having strong visuals on top of that can be the icing on the cake for some folk who tend to pack it all in and write it of as some crazy one of that they never want to experience again.however from what ive read of bufotenine i would think a strong hit of it could be a good way of dipping the toe in to see what the water is like,and actuly go back next time more prepared,rather than freaking yourself out with a psychidelic and being to scared to go back due to the confusion.

i hope to find a sorce of bufotenine in the uk,i was under the impresion that extracting 5meo-dmt from phalaris grasses was no use as it also contianed bufotenine,i dont know if this is true but now i know more about how safe bufotenine actuly is i wouldnt mind trying,the only problem now is ive went of the idea of smoking 5meo-dmt,lol.ive heard the contents of phalaris grasses difer from strain to strain and wouldnt have a clue how to go about testing an extracts contents,never mind seperating them.

 

[acolon_5]

and judging by the amounts needed to be cosidered a leathal dose it seems buotenine is a lot safer than was previously thaught.i had also written bufotenine of as some sort of poison and not to be messed with.i must say 69ron you make this all sound so intresting,to think ther is an entheogen out ther where one could achieve the effects of going on a journy without having to commit yourself to it

Please don't take all of this at face value. Many people report very uncomfortable experiences with vaporized + insufflated freebase bufotenin... Always go slow and don't overdo it. Everyone reacts differently! I've never heard of bufotenin being without psycadelic effects, but I'm willing to give it a go!

He sparked my interest in it again as well. I've tried it once with only minimal effects, but I think it may be time to reopen my bag of seeds and see what I can do with them in my lab (kitchen)...

 

[69ron]

Yeah, it's like 5-MeO-DMT in that regard. As with 5-MeO-DMT, some people get unpleasant side effects from it. Some people also get side effect from DMT, but that’s not typical. Usually with DMT the side effect is nausea. With 5-MeO-DMT the side effects vary a lot from person to person, sometimes it includes nausea, sometimes prickling, headache, tension, etc. But most people are fine with it. With 5-HO-DMT (bufotenine) the typical side effects are like Viagra’s side effects because they are caused by pretty much the same effect on blood circulation. I would really stay clear of bufotenine if you are using Viagra because they would potentiate each others side effects. If you get side effects from Viagra, you’ll probably get side effects from bufotenine. Even SWIM gets very mild Viagra style side effects from it. But it doesn’t bother SWIM at all.

Think of bufotenine in the same light as ayahuasca. Ayahuasca gives amazing visuals but is hard on the body causing lots of nausea a vomiting for some people. Bufotenine, for some, is also hard on the body. Most of SWIMs friends don’t get side effects from it though, other than light nausea for a minute or so. At any rate the side effects aren’t as serious as Viagra’s are. There are no reports of any deaths from smoking Yopo or using Yopo snuff. Natives have used massive amounts of Yopo snuff for hundreds of years and it is known by the natives to be safe. For SWIM, DMT feels more toxic than bufotenine does, so individual metabolisms will definitely have an impact on what side effects or lack of side effects people experience from specific alkaloids. According to animal tests DMT is more toxic than 5-MeO-DMT, and 5-MeO-DMT is more toxic than bufotenine. The presence of side effects or lack of side effects does not mean an alkaloid is more or less toxic.

All animal tests show that bufotenine is about as toxic as caffeine by injection. We drink coffee all the time and never think twice of it. A few human tests done with injected bufotenine on mental patients, who were also taking other drugs and suffering from various different conditions, did show it to be relatively toxic, but because they were mental patients taking other drugs, those test are probably not valid for normal people. It is likely that many of those mental patients were taking strong prescription level MAOI antidepressants at around the time they took the tests. Most of those types of drugs would interact strongly with something bufotenine. In fact similar tests done with injected DMT nearly killed a person.

In the book Anadenanthera, By Constantino Manuel Torres, David B. Repke, on page 180, it reports that

A near-fatal episode occurred following the intramuscular injection of 40 mg DMT into one patient…a brief cardiac arrest necessitated vigorous cardiac massage in order to save the subject

So keep that in mind when you talk about drug side effects. Our beloved DMT nearly killed a person, so it is not so safe either. None of these drugs are completely safe. The only time bufotenine showed possible fatal effects was when taken with chlorpromazine, in which case the subject almost died. But even then, there are no reported human deaths from bufotenine, 5-MeO-DMT or DMT.

 

[lemmy]

I think it is safe to say that anyone going ahead with an extraction of any type would have done ther research on the dangers of whatever it may be ther extracting,althow i totaly understand where your comming from alcon_5,something like bufotenine that has basicly been dismised as a dangerous drug by the entheogenic comunity should deserve extra care,as its unknown teritory for most apart from a few experiences on erowid and the research 69ron has done,ther really aint that mutch info out ther.i must say thow,i think its great that this comunity is taking an intrest in bufotenine as we have a bit more experience in this TYPE of drug than your average kid scanning erowid for something thats gonna get him and his friend off ther heads for the night.

i had a look at the laws for bufotenine last night and was shocked to learn it is a class a in the uk,i mean come on what threat to socity is bufotenine,i wonder haw many folk in the uk have actuly tried it,even dmt for that matter,it really only is a handfull of people who are using dmt in the uk,and i bet you all of them are doing it for the right reasons.i take it the folk who make the drug laws outlawd bufotenine simply because it is a sister drug to dmt because i would bet my house on ther never having been a case of someone hospitalised in the uk for bufotenine.

 

[69ron]

Bufotenine is probably one of the least used drugs in the west, but in South America it is used by thousands all the time, and has a very long history of use.

You need to remember that Vilca snuff effects are nearly all bufotenine. Vilce snuff is not new. It's been used for hundreds of years and at one time was more popular that ayahuasca. I doubt people would have used it for such a long time if it was dangerous. None of the shamans that use Vilca have any bad stories to tell of poisonings from it.

Some shamans use up to 10 grams of Vilca snuff in one session! At about 3% bufotenine that’s about 300 mg of bufotenine in one shot! That’s a massive dose. SWIM has never attempted anything near that. The shamans are all fine and there are no shamans who think it is dangerous. Shamans know a lot about plants and know which ones are dangerous and which ones are relatively safe. Things like datura are known to the shamans to be dangerous and are treated with respect, but to be honest, Vilca is sort of a party drug. It’s used often during celebrations. No one ever dies from Vilca snuff. I think that’s a pretty good indication of its lack of toxicity. However, they all usually vomit shortly after snuffing Vilca just like they do with ayahuasca. Shamans are more careful when using ayahuasca than when using Vilca. With ayahuasca they fast and stuff, but Vilca is often taken after big party feasts. The bodily side effects are there, but don’t seem too dangerous, at least in the way shaman’s use it. However it is considered by the shamans to be dangerous to eat Vilca. Anyone know why?

 

[polytrip]

I have seen people looking red, while they've taken LSD. How do you explain this, 69ron?

 

[69ron]

Very good question. LSD usually makes SWIM pale, cold and sweaty, just like psilocin, if he takes a lot. But SWIM has also gotten red, especially in the face, from using certain types of blotter LSD. SWIM was told such blotter is not pure LSD. Is that true or just a myth?

LSD causes vasoconstriction, and so does LSA and LSH. It should always cause your skin to clam up a little at high doses.

SWIM heard once that the LSD that causes the red face is a different drug altogether, in a category like DOM.

SWIM also heard that the red face is caused by atropine being added to the blotter to improve the visuals. Again, probably a myth.

Anyone else know why some blotter LSD causes a red face and others do not? I'm sure others have seen this.

 

[acolon_5]

I think it is safe to say that anyone going ahead with an extraction of any type would have done their research on the dangers of whatever it may be their extracting,

Oh how I wish this was true. In fact, quite often the opposite is true!

How many times have you heard about green dmt? I've heard about it at least 4 times. People were using solvents that had been repeatedly shown to be full of rust inhibitors and other nasties.

What about using liquid draino as a substitute for lye??? I've seen that ON THIS FORUM ALONE twice. Do you think people who do these types of things have a basic understanding of the tek they are using, much less researched the chemical they are trying to isolate?

Just because someone is doing an extraction they found on the net DOES NOT MEAN that they have researched the tek, or the final product. Nothing personal against you or anyone for that matter, but I prefer to give out the disclaimers and warnings liberally.

i think its great that this comunity is taking an intrest in bufotenine as we have a bit more experience in this TYPE of drug than your average kid scanning erowid for something thats gonna get him and his friend off ther heads for the night.

This is true as well. This forum usually has a much less immature crowd then many of the other "drug" forums out there. We do see the occasional goof though. I'm glad that the people on here care enough to try and keep it as safe as possible.

However it is considered by the shamans to be dangerous to eat Vilca. Anyone know why?

From what I have gathered it is because of the massive purging, the raised BP, and other uncomfortable side effects that oral Bufotenin causes. I believe this is due to Bufotenin being converted to an HCL salt. I know that some shamans use cebil seeds, in very small amounts, as an additive to aya. It is not done to increase the effects of the aya but rather to increase the purgative effects.

 

[69ron]

However it is considered by the shamans to be dangerous to eat Vilca. Anyone know why?

From what I have gathered it is because of the massive purging, the raised BP, and other uncomfortable side effects that oral Bufotenin causes. I believe this is due to Bufotenin being converted to an HCL salt. I know that some shamans use cebil seeds, in very small amounts, as an additive to aya. It is not done to increase the effects of the aya but rather to increase the purgative effects.

Do we know for sure if this is from the bufotenine content? When Jonathan Ott tested pure freebase bufotenine orally he didn't report any side effects orally. He said it was psychoactive. Here's a quote from his tests:

In BO-I, I ingested 100mg bufotenine free-base (1.43 mg/kg) encapsulated, to preclude any contact with my buccal mucosa - this dose was most decidedly psychoactive. The first activity, tinnitus, manifested at 20 minutes, developed slowly and lasted some two hours. The peak was attained at one hour 30 minutes with all the classic tryptaminic bodily sensations and mild psychoptic effects, but absent colored patterns. In BO-II, I swallowed a capsule containing 20 mg bufotenine (0.28 mg/kg) plus 40 mg harmaline (0.57mg/kg) I'd already established per pharmahuasca bioassays such quantity orally activated DMT for me, although I am a low-MAO phenotype, and most require about 50% more) this proved to be nearly as potent as BO-I, with virtually identical pharmacodynamics.

Maybe larger doses of absolutely pure bufotenine are not unpleasant as Vilca is when taken orally. It’s unfortunate that Ott didn’t try larger doses.

The next time SWIM has more pure bufotenine, he’s going to do some oral tests with it at much higher doses. Right now SWIM has tons of crude amber bufotenine, but no pure bufotenine sitting around. When his lab is back to normal he’s going to make more pure bufotenine even if he has to buy ethyl acetate again to freeze precipitate it.

Does anyone know where to buy ethyl acetate OTC?

 

[meme]

"Where does 5-HO-DMT lie? 5-HO-DMT is heavy in the audio/visual categories and weak in the psychedelic category."

This is the only thing I disagree with you on. I would say that based on my interviews, it is MOST psychedelic!!

Ethyl acetate is common in nail polish removers . . . I'm not sure what is OTC in mexico but it is about as easy as a chem gets. Paint and fiberglass stores should sell it, ebay prolly does there, and it is pretty innocent a purchase. Moreso than methanol nowadays

69ron, you get a badge of honor from the old coots club for posting consistently worthwhile info.

 

[69ron]

Thanks for the remarks.

"This is the only thing I disagree with you on. I would say that based on my interviews, it is MOST psychedelic!!"

SWIM never gets any psychedelic effects from it, but maybe the term psychedelic is being used to mean slightly different things here. The word “psychedelic” is such a broad word and some people use it with very difference meanings.

I’m very curious. I’m sure SWIM’s reaction is not the same as everyone else’s reactions. The whole point of this thread is to talk about the differences between DMT, 5-MeO-DMT, and 5-HO-DMT. SWIM started it with SWIM’s own interpretation of the differences, and I’m sure they are only 100% accurate for SWIM.

Can you explain how 5-HO-DMT was "psychedelic" in others? What sorts of psychedelic effects were evident in those interviews? Was there ego loss? Was there time warping? Was there mental confusion? If so, did anyone say it was strongly so?

 

[lemmy]

i see what you mean alcon_5,its maybe more wishfull thinking on my part,and the fact that when i got in to doing extractions i was so spooked out by the fact i was using dangerous chemicals that i made damn sure i spent the best part of a year researching the dangers,and double,and tripple checking everything from what i was using to possible dangers of the spice itself.i just take it for granted that everyone is as concearned about the dangers as myself,infact the last extraction i done was thrown in the bin because i was not sure about the nps that i used,it was more of an experiment anyway.but i see what your saying,thers always some dumnut who will find ther way on to this forum with the intention of getting high and not doing ther research and ending up in the hospital,sad but true.

 

[polytrip]

Very good question. LSD usually makes SWIM pale, cold and sweaty, just like psilocin, if he takes a lot. But SWIM has also gotten red, especially in the face, from using certain types of blotter LSD. SWIM was told such blotter is not pure LSD. Is that true or just a myth?

LSD causes vasoconstriction, and so does LSA and LSH. It should always cause your skin to clam up a little at high doses.

SWIM heard once that the LSD that causes the red face is a different drug altogether, in a category like DOM.

SWIM also heard that the red face is caused by atropine being added to the blotter to improve the visuals. Again, probably a myth.

Anyone else know why some blotter LSD causes a red face and others do not? I'm sure others have seen this.

Well, i'm absolutely sure that there's no atropin added to blotters. I have experimented with datura, wich contains atropin, (something i don't recomend by the way, it's really a dangerous drug) and the effects are totally unlike any tryptamine. Before atropin starts to have any mental effects, physical effects are already noticable. In doses where it's halucinogen the physical effects are extreme, especially the drie mouth and throat. The halucinogenic effects are so extreme and unpredictable that if it's sold as acid, it would most certainly come to accidents. Besides, it would lead to mortality's as result of overdose's wich i have never heard of with blotters. Maybe when LSD is taken with other substances that often occur in foods, the vasoconstiction is reversed. Niacin occurs in many foods and maybe when you're on acid, you're more sensitive to the vasolidating effects.

 

[69ron]

I believe there's a little more to it. When SWIM has certain "brands" of blotter acid, he always notices unique characteristics to them. For example, the ones with the black and white trippy artwork were extremely visual and relaxed. The ones with the candy stripes were very euphoric. The blue ones felt like LSA a little. The ones that caused a red face always caused a red face. This was true for everyone else as well. We'd pass it around, all of us would take different doses, and yet we would all get slightly red faces. SWIM still has some of that kind on green blotter and it still produces a red face. It's consistent. So, there's something in it that causes it. It's not diet or anything variable like that. If SWIM takes the black and white ones, which he still has, he gets a little pale. He never gets red from the black and white ones, only from the green ones he has.

SWIM buys blotter acid in sheets and there are almost always unique characteristic to each one. Many other SWIMs have noticed this. It is NOT PSYCHOSOMATIC, especially when others who have no idea what type of acid they're taking have the same effect you have from it. The candy stripes are always the same type of trip as well. They are always euphoric and tend to cause color pulsation effects. This is not just in SWIM but all his friends notice that as well.

Almost every batch of blotter acid SWIM has ever bought had slightly different effects that were unique to that batch. There is a reason for most of this. When you make LSD, it is extremely difficult to purify it. There are pretty much always impurities present from the synthesis, plus the LSD begins to break down into different compounds as soon as its made and some of its break down products alter the effects. SWIM has known several LSD chemists in the past (they are all now in jail) that said that LSD is like making a painting, in that no two batches are identical because it is never 100% LSD, it always has a little of this or that left behind from the synthesis or if its completely pure it develops break down products right after its purified! By the time the user buys it on blotter paper its got lots of breakdown products and usually lots of impurities from a lazy syntheses. These alone might account for all the variations in effects of different batches of LSD.

The atropine thing does have some credibility, but might be a myth. Atropine on blotter acid could only be there in extremely small amounts. You could not trip from it at all or even notice its effects if nothing was mixed with it. The way I’ve heard it explained was that very small amounts of atropine, not enough for effects on it’s own, when added to the LSD causes a shift in how the body responds to the LSD. The minute amounts of atropine causes vasodilation effects which alter the effect of LSD slightly. This change in blood circulation causes more blood to go to the face and outer skin. Somehow, this effect increases the visuals of LSD. Again, this could be a myth, but the drug interacting mechanisms do make sense. Atropine dilates the pupils in small amounts and causes vasodilation. Small doses of atropine are known to increases the effectiveness of many drugs including marijuana, LSD, mescaline, ayahuasca, etc. When some shamans make ayahuasca they add small amounts of datura to it, usually not enough for noticeable effects from the datura, usually just enough to prevent nausea and improve the visuals. So, there is some scientific bases for this. It still may just be a rumor.

I've heard that the way to tell if the blotter has small amounts of atropine added to it is that such blotter acid makes it more difficult to pee, never causes nausea or a nervous stomach, causes a red face, and prevents you from sweating too much. This matches the effects of the green blotter SWIM has. SWIM would like to have it tested to see if this is true or not.

 

[polytrip]

Oh, i always thought that this was indeed psychosomatic. Some types of trips i alwys liked more then others, but i thought it was just because of the pictures. It's nice to hear i wasn't fooling myself.

 

[69ron]

With LSD, there are usually effects that are psychosomatic in many people, but when it comes to consistent effects that span all the users, they are probably not psychosomatic.

For example, if you gave the blue blotter acid to a group and told each one of them that they are going to develop nausea, and they all do, this could be psychosomatic because they’re set up ahead of time to except something and their minds may cause it to happen.

If you gave the blue blotter acid to a group and told them nothing about what to expect from it, and each one of them developed nausea, then this could not be psychosomatic.

When you buy acid in sheets of 100 or 1000 or so, and everyone you give them to notices the same unique characteristics, that’s when you know that particular batch has specific effects unique to it.

SWIM has had sheets of acid that caused stomach distress and even vomiting. Most people said that batch of acid had strychnine in it. There’s no acid with strychnine in it. That’s a myth that was proven false many times. However, there could be impurities in that batch that like lysergic acid that could cause stomach distress especially when taken with acid.

 

[69ron]

Atropine is effective in microgram doses. 250 micrograms is enough to cause definite noticeable physical effects. From what I’ve heard, the red face causing blotter usually has 25 micrograms of atropine and 100 micrograms of LSD. This is said to increase the visuals and potency of the LSD and reduce any possible nausea, making the LSD more pleasant.

Because shamans also add datura and similar plants to ayahuasca to produce stronger visions and reduce nausea, it makes sense that someone would try the same thing with acid and atropine would work mixed with LSD on blotter paper.

Again, no proof of anyone adding atropine to blotter acid, it is just hearsay. But the science of it makes sense because it would work.