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DMT, 5-MeO-DMT, and 5-HO-DMT (bufotenine) – What’s the difference?

Migrated topic.
This thread is too heavy on DMT and 5-HO-DMT and getting a little off track. I’m going to switch gears and talk about 5-MeO-DMT more.

A lot of people don’t like 5-MeO-DMT, especially when smoked. When smoked it hits you like a ton of psychedelic bricks laced with insanity. You go from baseline to tripping really hard within seconds after the first inhalation. It peaks in about 2-3 minutes and only lasts about 15 minutes. However, when snuffed or taken sublingually, the effects peak in about 10-15 minute and last about 30-45 minutes, and the overall trip is generally far more enjoyable. This is the only way SWIM likes it. He hates it smoked.

The effects are inconsistent, not just from person to person, but the same individual can have different effects from it from time to time.

The main effects are psychedelic mental effects. Unlike DMT and 5-HO-DMT, there are almost no visual effects in most users. However, your environment might look strangely altered, as with LSD. With 5-MeO-DMT, object association breaks down in a way that is LSD-like. For example, a pillow might look like a happy face to you, but it still looks like your pillow. It hasn’t changed any, but somehow you get the mental impression that it’s a face. But at higher doses, some visual effects do start kicking in, such as trailers (visual looping of the same visual data). For example, if you wave your hand in front of your face you might see a faint stream of hands behind your hand as you move it. This looping effect can also happen mentally. For example, you might have a thought like, “that is a beautiful flower, beautiful flower, beautiful flower, beautiful flower, beautiful flower, beautiful flower…”, and continue hearing the thought “beautiful flower” in your head over and over. Not as an audio sound, but as a mental thought.

There are hallucinogenic effects with 5-MeO-DMT, but they are mostly mental. In this way, it is like harmine. For example, if you lay back and relax and close your eyes, you might get a mental impression of a large pyramid, but it’s not seen with the eyes, it’s more of a mental image, like what you might get if you were recalling a memory of something you saw. You don’t see it with your eyes, but you paint a mental picture of it in your mind. This his how the bulk of the hallucinations are with 5-MeO-DMT, they are mental.

5-MeO-DMT can cause nausea. Sometimes users don’t experience any nausea, and other times they might. It is inconsistent. The side effects of 5-MeO-DMT are generally inconsistent in most users.

5-MeO-DMT can cause abstract thoughts. For example, you might feel that you are a pencil and you are erasing everything in your life. Looking at yourself in a mirror, you see yourself as you are, but your head reminds you of a rubber eraser at the top of a pencil, and your body reminds you of the wooden pencil body and your black shoes remind you of the pencil lead. And you feel as though you need to be sharpened. But at the same time you know this is not true and that you are not a pencil. The abstract thoughts are normally not believed by the user, but simply experienced by the user.

Ok, so here’s a 5-MeO-DMT trip report from SWIM that is from 5 mg of pure freebase 5-MeO-DMT mixed with 50 mg of calcium carbonate (which helps the alkaloid absorb into the membranes of the mouth) taken sublingually.

I place the powder under my tongue and press my tongue to the bottom of my mouth. Immediately I feel the burn of the 5-MeO-DMT passing through the membranes of my mouth. After about 5 minutes the effects are very noticeable. I lay back in my comfy recliner and look at the ceiling. I feel a little nauseated (which is very unusual for me with 5-MeO-DMT). The effects are coming on quite strongly. I’m a little nervous about the effects. It seems stronger than 5 mg. At this point most of the alkaloid has been absorbed, but the burning it still very strong.

The plastic taste of the 5-MeO-DMT in my mouth is bothering me. So I get up and go into the bathroom to rinse out my mouth. After rinsing my mouth, I notice I still feel a little nausea. It’s about 7 minutes since I took it. I start looking at the tooth brushes in the bathroom. The pink tooth brush reminds me of a woman. I see the two other larger brushes pointed towards the pink tooth brush, as if they were two macho guys checking out the sexy pink tooth brush. I watch for a while and it’s quite funny. The pink brush seems to be flirting with the larger brushes. This is hysterical to me. Mind you, the brushes are not moving, but they still somehow look animated. At this point I realize I’m tripping pretty hard.

I go into the living room and relax on the recliner. I can see my little robot, he looks alive. Again, he’s not moving but he looks alive, as if he’s watching me. I sit back, fully reclined and stare at the ceiling. I relax my mind and start getting mental visions (these are thoughts of images, not actual visuals) of things. I get a mental image of a face with an infinite amount of eyes spanning from the left to the right, all the way to infinity. It’s a creepy looking face. It’s infinitely wide and looks sort of like a skeleton. This is very dark and creepy, but I’m enjoying it.

About 10 minutes have passed, and I’m starting to reach the peak. I’m having bazaar thoughts. I’m thinking in square thoughts. I cannot explain this easily using words. My thoughts are actually square. I feel like my mind is made up of squares and all my thoughts are right angles and boxes. This is very bazaar and a little freaky. I start thinking, “this is weird”, and I keep hearing the words “this is weird”, over and over and over in my mind while a large mental box is being constructed.

About 15 minutes have passed and the unusual thoughts has dissipated. I’m pretty much back to normal mentally. I go to sleep while the effects are still present.

SWIM often gets the impression that things are alive. He's got this nearly every time he's taken 5-MeO-DMT. Statues, pictures, toys, etc., all look alive. It's really nice to look through a family photo album while this effect is there. You can really get the feeling that the person in the photo is really there looking back at you. This is SWIM's favorite effect from 5-MeO-DMT. He sometimes gets this from LSD, but nearly always gets this from 5-MeO-DMT.

How does this compare with DMT or 5-HO-DMT. Well with 5-MeO-DMT SWIM never gets the sense of immersion as he does with DMT. With 5-MeO-DMT you feel like you are a spectator, just as with 5-HO-DMT. You don’t feel deeply immersed in the effects as you would with DMT.

Also, the sense that things are animated or alive is really strong with 5-MeO-DMT. SWIM doesn’t get this effect at all with 5-HO-DMT. He only gets this effect from DMT slightly, even during very heavy visual effects.

The visual looping effects are strong at high doses of 5-MeO-DMT. SWIM also gets this a little bit from DMT, but rarely from 5-HO-DMT.

The mental looping effecs are strong at high doses of 5-MeO-DMT. SWIM never gets this effect from anything else.

The abstract thoughts produced by 5-MeO-DMT can be extremely bazaar. SWIM never gets this effect from DMT or 5-HO-DMT.
meme said:
"Ethyl acetate is common in nail polish removers . . . I'm not sure what is OTC in mexico but it is about as easy as a chem gets. Paint and fiberglass stores should sell it, ebay prolly does there, and it is pretty innocent a purchase. Moreso than methanol nowadays ;)"

eBay is out of the question.

Man...SWIM can't find it at any local stores. All the nail polish removers have either acetone (up to 100%) or methyl acetate. None have ethyl acetate. I saw some online with ethyl acetate (up to 80%). That looks promising. Can methyl acetate substitute for ethyl acetate?

"Paint and fiberglass stores should sell it"...as what? What does SWIM look for. He can’t find any thing labeled ethyl acetate.
once again great posts 69ron

SWIM never tried bufotenin but has some paricá snuff (virola theiodora) which a friend brought from the amazon.. seems virola t. has quite a lot of 5meo, and a little bit bufo, dmt and some b-carbolines.. SWIM didnt try it yet but will sometime soon

btw, as for acid, I think that the differences SWIY noticed on different blotters is either because some of them might be some DOx kind of chemical and others real acid, set and setting, or some self-suggestion kind of thing... The way to test is obviously doing a few blind tests and check if one can get consistent right guesses..

did you ever check this erowid page where people tried original sandoz acid a few years ago, and most ppl said it wasnt so different from street acid? Chinacat in shroomery had a few posts about this ´can impurities affect a trip´ discussion.. some interesting points too (about how at the hundred-or-so micrograms, impurities do not make a difference, though for thumbprint thousands of mics kind of dosages, it might make a difference)
Could someone try to describe a bit the freebase bufotenine smoke ?
I would like to know if it 'burns' like DMT and if it has a specific odor.
From what I understand, 5-Meo seems also burning ? Does it smells like DMT ?
Freebase bufotenine smoke is very unlike freebase DMT or freebase 5-MeO-DMT. The hydroxyl group in bufotenine causes a dramatic change in the effects, in the vaporization temperature, the smell, the taste, and the harshness of the smoke.

The melting point of freebase DMT is 44-47 C
The melting point of freebase 5-MeO-DMT is 68-70 C
The melting point of freebase bufotenine is 120-140 C

The boiling point of freebase DMT is 60-80 C
The boiling point of freebase 5-MeO-DMT is 160-170 C
The boiling point of freebase bufotenine is 300-320 C

The taste and smell of freebase DMT is sort of like bitter plastic
The taste and smell of freebase 5-MeO-DMT is sort of like fruity or musty bitter plastic
The taste and smell of freebase bufotenine is sort of like bitter burnt coffee

Freebase DMT causes a burning sensation when placed in the mouth or in the nose.
Freebase 5-MeO-DMT causes an intense burning sensation when placed in the mouth or in the nose.
Freebase bufotenine causes no burning sensation when placed in the mouth, but causes a mild burning sensation when placed on in the nose.

Most find it easier to smoke bufotenine than DMT or 5-MeO-DMT. The smoke feels less harsh but is still somewhat harsh. There’s no chemical burning sensation felt as there might be with DMT or 5-MeO-DMT (depending on how you smoke them).
Another sublingual 5-MeO-DMT trip (combined with pure freebase harimine) from SWIM:

I took the day off and drove down to the local park and sat back in the drivers seat. The sun was shining in through the sun roof. I turned off the radio and could here the birds whistling. No other sounds could be heard. It was a quite Monday morning at the park.

At about 10:50 am, I placed under my tongue a mix of 2 mg freebase 5-MeO-DMT, 50 mg calcium carbonate, and 7 mg freebase harmine. I pressed my tongue down hard against the bottom of my mouth to hold the alkaloids there. This was my first time ever taking 5-MeO-DMT sublingually with harmine. I wasn’t sure if 7 mg of harmine was going to be enough or not. I read that Jonathan Ott found this dose of harmine was effective as an MAOI sublingually.

Almost immediately, my tongue started burning from the 5-MeO-DMT. Its quite intense, but I’m used to it now. I was hoping that the numbing effect of harmine would counteract the burning of the 5-MeO-DMT. However, 7 mg of harmine wasn’t enough.

After about 5 minutes, I started feeling the effects. There were mild visuals, and lots of mental activity, typical of 5-MeO-DMT. I looked at my control panel to see the time and it reminded me of a big smiling face. It looked so happy. I reclined my drivers seat and closed my eyes. I started having dream sequences. The sounds in the dreams were much louder than they normally are with 5-MeO-DMT alone. The harmine really brought out more auditory effects. The visuals were still mild though, but more present than with 5-MeO-DMT alone. I had lots of erotic images floating in my mind. These were dark, not strongly colored, but full of lots of meaning. The harmine seemed to add a new meaningful dimension to the trip. The visions made more sense and were more specific to me personally. But still they were background images, dark, just like those of daydreams.

After about 8 minutes, I opened my eyes again. I felt so euphoric. Waves of pleasure were flowing through my body, and I felt energized. I looked around at the grass and trees. The trees visually looked the same but mentally looked different. They looked like large woody hands reaching out of the soil grasping at the sunlight shining from above the earth. It’s amazing how the mind can see something from such a different perspective while under the influence of 5-MeO-DMT. I think this is one of the things about 5-MeO-DMT that is so LSD like, but in this way it is stronger than LSD.

After about 12 minutes the effects reached a peak and started to slowly subside.

After about 50 minutes I was in a very sharp state of mind, so I decided to drive down to the mall. My driving was very easy and accurate, but I could still feel the effects of the 5-MeO-DMT. When I got to the mall it was getting close to lunch time. I bought a sandwich and some iced coffee. I felt a heightened sense of awareness while at the mall. I could sense the emotions form the others there. While I sat eating my sandwich and drinking my coffee I watched all the people walking buy in the mall. With each person, I could feel a new set of emotions that were specific to that person. I could feel the uneasiness and frustrations some people had shopping at the mall. This started to get annoying after a while. I decided to leave the mall and go to a more relaxed place.

About 2 hours after taking the 5-MeO-DMT/harmine mix, I drove down to a more relaxed store nearby to do some needing shopping there. When I entered the store, I immediately felt a shift in emotions. I felt so relaxed. Here people were taking their time. It was not rushed like the mall. With my heightened sense of awareness still pretty strong, I kept getting distracted and looking at everything in the store. I still felt very mild waves of pleasure flowing through my body as I did my shopping. It was very nice. I didn’t seem to notice the effects of the coffee I had earlier, I only felt the lingering effects of the 5-MeO-DMT.

After about 3 hours the effects finally subsided.

What I really find fascinating is that those same trees at the park that looked like hands during my 5-MeO-DMT/harmine trip still look exactly the same, but I no longer see them as hands. This effect of 5-MeO-DMT is extremely strong and very helpful in given a person a completely different perspective on the world around them.

At the dose used above, the effects are not overwhelming and nothing like smoking 5-MeO-DMT. That dosage could be easily handled by most people. It’s very pleasant, and psychedelically very interesting.

I like bouncing around between 5-MeO-DMT, DMT, and bufotenine, and I rarely take them together. 5-MeO-DMT gives you lost of insight, altered perspectives, and is quite enjoyable (taken sublingually) in low doses, but it lacks the visual light shows so common with most psychedelics. Bufotenine lacks most of the mental psychedelic effects of 5-MeO-DMT, but gives you fantastic visuals. 5-MeO-DMTand bufotenine are on the opposite spectrum of each other while DMT lies smack dab in the middle of the two. When I’m interested in a full psychedelic trip, DMT is the one of choice (this is best taken orally with harmine, I rarely smoke it). When I’m interested in a visual only trip, bufotenine is the one of choice (this is best smoked). When I’m interested in a more LSD style trip without the visuals, 5-MeO-DMT is the one of choice (this is best taken sublingually, I hate it smoked). I like them all, but by different routes of administration.

I’ve just started experimenting with harmine and 5-MeO-DMT, and so far the experience is very nice and I had no side effects at all even after drinking coffee. However the trip was almost entirely a 5-MeO-DMT trip with little provided by the harmine. Next time with double the harmine, I hope to see more of harmine’s beautiful characteristics.

In the above test, 2 mg of 5-MeO-DMT taken with 7 mg of harmine was about as potent as 4 mg of 5-MeO-DMT taken alone. The potency doubled, the onset and the peak time were about the same. But the after effects of the sublingual 5-MeO-DMT lasted 3 hours instead of the typical 45 minutes. The visual effects were slightly enhanced, the closed eye day-dream imagery was enhanced and more meaningful, the euphoria was enhanced, and the audio effects were greatly enhanced.

Overall, the 5-MeO-DMT experience taken with a small amount of harmine became a little more like a bufotenine or DMT experience. The visuals were a little stronger and more DMT-like. The audio effects were much stronger and sort of bufotenine-like. The overall duration was greatly extended and more like bufotenine. The strong LSD-like perspective altering effects of 5-MeO-DMT remained unchanged, and so one could tell very well that the effects were that of 5-MeO-DMT and not DMT or bufotenine.

SWIM plans to try this combination again, next time using 2 mg of 5-MeO-DMT with 14 mg of harmine. He’s hoping that amount of harmine will numb the tongue and contribute more visual content to the 5-MeO-DMT making it more DMT-like. We’ll see what he reports.
polytrip said:
Is The 5Meo as freebase, taken sublingualy different from when you chew chaliponga?

The plant leaves contain 5-MeO-DMT as a salt so it won't burn and it won't absorb as fast. Other than that the effect is basically identical to taking pure freebase 5-MeO-DMT. Because the DMT in the plant is very ineffective sublingually, the only effects you get are those of 5-MeO-DMT. You can never feel the DMT that way, because you need tons of DMT to be effective that way.

Has SWIY tried chewing the leaves?
No. I did take freebase DMT sublingually, but i'm looking for alternative ways. I would like to try taking it as a salt if it burns less and works better, but if the differences in effects are minimal, then the whole procedure would not be worth it, i think. I never had pure 5Meo. I wouldn't think of visiting a mall in a trippy state of mind, by the way.
polytrip said:
No. I did take freebase DMT sublingually, but i'm looking for alternative ways. I would like to try taking it as a salt if it burns less and works better, but if the differences in effects are minimal, then the whole procedure would not be worth it, i think. I never had pure 5Meo. I wouldn't think of visiting a mall in a trippy state of mind, by the way.

The difference is minimal with a salt form. It basically just absorbs slower and doesn't burn as much.

I don't recommend visiting the mall during the peak of a strong 5-MeO-DMT experience. SWIM visited long after the peak. That was SWIM's first time doing so. It was interesting to feel all of the emotions from the many different shoppers, but the whole scene there was too rushed and seeing those occasional nervous rushed shoppers while on 5-MeO-DMT was no fun at all. The park is a far better place to experience 5-MeO-DMT. Being surrounded by nature is much more conducive to a blissful state of mind.

But still, SWIM did gain a little insight by visiting the mall while on 5-MeO-DMT. He never really paid much attention to the other shoppers’ states of mind, and now realizes that a lot of people don’t really like being at the mall. Only a small percentage of the people really looked truly happy being there (the teenagers mostly). The rest looked tired of shopping, tired of walking, or just plain uncomfortable with the whole mall environment.
When 5-MeO-DMT is taken with MAOI's, it lasts longer and becomes more visual. I've read this somewhere, never done pure 5-MeO- myself.
So it realy might be that there is a link between duration and the amount of visual activity.
I think that this has to do with the serotonin reuptake mechanism. That this mechanism very quickly removes a 5-MeO molecule, once it has triggered a serotonin receptor, so the molecule affects the receptor and thus serotonergic activity, but not long enough for it to have impact on perception. The effects of taking 5-MeO would be that of the totality of a lot of molecules acting shortly, so the total effects are strong as a result of the many molecules acting on the brain while the effect of each individual molecule is just to short to make it have an impact within the field of perception.

Does this make sense?
SWIM have really been wanting to experiene 5-meo for some time now but SWIM have no idea where to get it. SWIM cannot find any extraction teks or legit sites that sell it. does anyone here have a place they would recommend getting it from?
5-MeO has a significant impact on perception it is a very active hallucinogen however it does not have true Hallucinogen visual effects. Its duration of action is almost identical with DMT which is the most visual compound known. Furthermore severeal long acting compounds also lack visuals and thus the lack of visuals is likely a result from a lack of activity at a non-5-HT2a "visual" receptor as described in wallach's article. These compounds are MIPT, DET, AMT, 5-Meo-AMT and others. These compounds all likely have unique pharmacologies which account for there difference is effects. Try 5-MeO-DMT it definelty activates 5-HT receptors and is a very strong psychological psychedelic even stronger than DMT in SWIMs opinion. just without the significant visuals.

Furthermore MAOI's are known to decrease the visual effects of hallucinogens like DMT, psilocin and LSD. Although this is dose and route of admin dependent. Thus it seems very unlikely that MAOI's would make a non-visual HA have strong visuals. SWIM and many others have tried this combo and no such visuals are present the effects are stronger and last longer but no DMT like visuals. It should be noted that 5-MeO has some minimal visual altering effects especialy at high doses but it does not have the intense visual patterns of other HA compounds like DMT, Bufotenine and psilocin. 69ron gets intense DMT like visuals from bufotenine whereas others while do get strong visuals report them to be very different than DMT and thus 69ron may have an altered phenotype at this visual receptor which makes these compounds more visual in him. In SWIM with the MAOI there was minor visual alterations similaur to the higher doses however these come no where close to the intensity of those from a high dose of DMT or even bufotenine. The duration of action of these compounds has nothing to do with the visual effects, the result is from direct pharmacological activity on CNS processes.

Check out Wallach's article on Endogenous Hallucinogens to get a better picture of what is going on at the molecular level to account for visual hallucinations.
When Jonathan Ott tested pure freebase bufotenine on himself and many others, the effects were reported as extremely visionary and without unpleasant toxic side effects.

Do you know which method he used to extract it? Can u send a link for the article?

And what are Bazaar thinking patterns?
What are the chances of one molecule affecting receptors of such totally different transmitter systems and not just that, but that the combined and different effects both are of a hallucinogenic nature?
So i don't want to be an 'occam's razor-fundamentalist', but if you can explain the effects of DMT with just one transmitter system you just have a less 'unlikely' theory.
Nevertheless, you cannot deny scientific evidence.
It is very unlikely that any drug only acts at a single receptor. Furthermore endogneous DMT is not a transmitter at the 5-HT site this is known with fairly high convidence. It is knwon DMT and other HA bind to TAAR sites as well as other non-5-HT sites. Furthermore plently of 5-HT agonist exist which have NO hallucinogenic effects at all (lisuride...). Just because these drugs bind to 5-HT sites does not mean this is where the HA effects come from. They bind to a variety of other well known other receptor sites. What just because they discovered 5-HT first you think this is the only receptor involved. This seems very unlikely as the evidenece clearly shows. Read Wallach's paper and check out some of the references. Additionaly the active sites of the TAAR and 5-HT receptors are almost identical and many agonists have significant activity at both sites. Plenty of HA exist which have no visual effects yet have identical 5-HT activity as visual hallucinogens? Anyone who thinks that the effects result from solely the 5-HT receptors obviously is misinformed and has not looked into the matter. The 5-HT sites may certainly play a role, as most people obviosuly believe however it is with out a doubt inadequate at explaining the effects thus anyone supporting a sole 5-HT system (one NT system) is wrong. It also depends what you consider hallucinogenic? Furthermore these systems may interact to give rise to unique psychedelic effects.
Z E D said:
When Jonathan Ott tested pure freebase bufotenine on himself and many others, the effects were reported as extremely visionary and without unpleasant toxic side effects.

Do you know which method he used to extract it? Can u send a link for the article?

And what are Bazaar thinking patterns?

Here you go man. Ott didn't develop this method he copied from an author in the 1920's I forget his name. If anyone really wants it ask me and ill post the info I just have to find it. Anyway one doesn't have to use tartaric acid any acid will work.

Here's the article:
occam's razor has nothing to do with this. If information fits into the theory it should be incorporated. These receptors obviously play a role as these compounds bind to them this is thus an observation. occam's razor is a form of deductive reasoning.
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