DMT and Enlightenment. Thoughts?
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DMT and enlightenment
- Thread starter Voidmatrix
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DMT can give you a Kensho experience (in Zen this is how it's called). It's a sudden and temporary awakening. But when the effects wear off and even the afterglow wears off the mind will go back to its usual functioning, and then it's up to you to continue the practice.
I don't want to shatter your illusions, but I kind of do 
We have a Department of Buddhist Philosophy, and the same applies to other Indian traditions. Buddhism is highly philosophical, and you need to know what mind is, what knowing is, and what enlightenment is. There are many traditions and different approaches. The word enlightenment is just as loaded as God.
As everyone else mentioned, it's not about a substance. Substance is just a glimpse behind the scenes, and even that is just a possibility.
It's all about you and what you think you are. You'd be better off working as a nurse, volunteering somewhere, traveling the world, and helping those in need.
Doing it for years is going to teach you much more than any substance. There are no shortcuts and never have been.
We have a Department of Buddhist Philosophy, and the same applies to other Indian traditions. Buddhism is highly philosophical, and you need to know what mind is, what knowing is, and what enlightenment is. There are many traditions and different approaches. The word enlightenment is just as loaded as God.
As everyone else mentioned, it's not about a substance. Substance is just a glimpse behind the scenes, and even that is just a possibility.
It's all about you and what you think you are. You'd be better off working as a nurse, volunteering somewhere, traveling the world, and helping those in need.
Doing it for years is going to teach you much more than any substance. There are no shortcuts and never have been.
I once heard it put that there is no such thing as enlightenment, only enlightened activity. I like this approach as it allows me mistakes or to falter on my journey as I am no dang saint or buddha. I think we all have moments in life where we can see this enlightened activity at play in the world. The more you begin to see it, take part in it, walk that path, participate in enlightened activity the more enlightened you become, that is to say the lighter you are, lighter walking the earth.
The ancient Egyptians would weigh the heart of the dead to judge if it was light. I always found that interesting, humans have been drawn towards a gentle, light and wise way to live for a very long time. Many cultures have their own ideas about what enlightenment is. I think it is good to reflect on what the word means personally. Define it and then live it. Seeing the good in others, being kind and compassionate and doing your best to cause little harm in this world is enlightenment to me and this does not even encapsulate the totality of how it feels. The actions lead to a way of being and feeling.
If peace is within my mind when I lay my head down at night knowing I did my best to walk in an enlightened way, I am happy for that alone. Pushing towards some higher enlightened state is like chasing the dragon. I think that psychedelics can give glimpses into enlightenment, but you have to put it into action for it to take on meaning in your life. Glimpses of enlightenment are the just the tip of the iceberg, there is much more underneath.
The ancient Egyptians would weigh the heart of the dead to judge if it was light. I always found that interesting, humans have been drawn towards a gentle, light and wise way to live for a very long time. Many cultures have their own ideas about what enlightenment is. I think it is good to reflect on what the word means personally. Define it and then live it. Seeing the good in others, being kind and compassionate and doing your best to cause little harm in this world is enlightenment to me and this does not even encapsulate the totality of how it feels. The actions lead to a way of being and feeling.
If peace is within my mind when I lay my head down at night knowing I did my best to walk in an enlightened way, I am happy for that alone. Pushing towards some higher enlightened state is like chasing the dragon. I think that psychedelics can give glimpses into enlightenment, but you have to put it into action for it to take on meaning in your life. Glimpses of enlightenment are the just the tip of the iceberg, there is much more underneath.
Animistic
Titanium Teammate
Bottom line, I would say no, DMT itself won't make you enlightened. Ive seen DMT fuel as much delusion as I have liberation of burdens. What you do with the experience counts and it's a lifelong path.
Psychedelics are non specific amplifiers. That can help you see the divine in yourself and also distort some weird aspects of one's psyche, in equal measure and often unpredictabily.
Enlightenment also isn't a one and done event. The choices we make each and every moment of where to put our awareness and focus are much more relevant to enlightenment imo.
Psychedelics are non specific amplifiers. That can help you see the divine in yourself and also distort some weird aspects of one's psyche, in equal measure and often unpredictabily.
Enlightenment also isn't a one and done event. The choices we make each and every moment of where to put our awareness and focus are much more relevant to enlightenment imo.
Here&Now
Titanium Teammate
Yeah, 5-MeO-DMT can be used as a booster for that exact purpose.
Here's another thread where I described my experience with its use. I'm certainly not enlightened, but 5-MeO-DMT gives you an authentic glimpse of what's possible, and it lights up the path and makes your next steps a lot more clear.
forum.dmt-nexus.me
Edit: After reading through everyone else's posts in this thread, I'd have to generally agree with the sentiment. You don't want to be deluded into thinking DMT, 5-MeO-DMT, or anything else will automatically give you this thing you're after. In my experience, it can help a lot in lubricating radical transformation. But enlightenment seems to be the ultimate essence of transcendental holism; not so easily realized by someone who hasn't cleared the way.
Here's another thread where I described my experience with its use. I'm certainly not enlightened, but 5-MeO-DMT gives you an authentic glimpse of what's possible, and it lights up the path and makes your next steps a lot more clear.
5-MeO-DMT - Hype or Hyperbole?
Have never done 5-MeO-DMT, my preference is smoked DMT + drinking Harmalas which I find to be a consistent doorway to communing with Divinity and an indescribably profound and deep experience. 5-MeO-DMT I am wary of the physiological side effects more than anything and that you need a sitter...
forum.dmt-nexus.me
Edit: After reading through everyone else's posts in this thread, I'd have to generally agree with the sentiment. You don't want to be deluded into thinking DMT, 5-MeO-DMT, or anything else will automatically give you this thing you're after. In my experience, it can help a lot in lubricating radical transformation. But enlightenment seems to be the ultimate essence of transcendental holism; not so easily realized by someone who hasn't cleared the way.
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Reading this made me think.
I participate to Buddhist practice sessions and the last time a participant was talking about the concept of the interconnectedness and interpenetration of all phenonmena. They said "It's a beautiful concept and I think that, if I could not only understand it as a concept but also experience it, I would fear nothing anymore. But I guess it takes several lifetimes." And I was there keeping myself from saying "if only you tried DMT..."
So yes they can help a lot. On the other hand, you risk getting stuck thinking "I've experienced awakening, this is what awakening feels like" and you start clinging to that experience instead of continuing to practice (I read it happens even to people who have sudden awakenings without psychedelics) and maybe even start chasing it by taking more DMT hoping that sooner or later it will become a permanent state.
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There are many ideas of enlightenment. It's a label that is often applied to different realizations or experiences. I don't think there's a point in arguing which one of those is "real enlightenment" as it's just a word, but it's good to specify what realization or experience one means (as many have done in this thread already).
I'm interested in Nibbana as understood in the forest Theravada tradition. It literally means the extinguishing of a flame, and it can be and is experienced in minor ways every time one momentarily extinguishes dhukka (dissatisfaction) or part of it. It's not an experience that can be "reached" in the sense of staying there: there's no "there" to stay, what there is is a new mind moment to either extinguish the flame again or keep it extinguished.
In this sense, I think psychedelics help, but in a very oblique way. To me, they help me to see the path, and often they light the fire brighter in a way that I can really see how it's there, how I keep it on, and how it's me who can extinguish it. They also help to heal the mind, setting a more stable base to follow the path. They're a high power tool that can help as much as do the opposite, most of the work happens out of the psychedelic experience. I think they come to balance out the lack of tradition, community, and real teachers very characteristic of this time.
But I think psychedelics are extremely open in their possibilities, so whenever one wonders "can they help for X" and X is related to the mind, the answer will be that they can, and they can also be used for the opposite, and it won't matter if X is good or bad. They're catalysts, what is more important is the user.
I'm interested in Nibbana as understood in the forest Theravada tradition. It literally means the extinguishing of a flame, and it can be and is experienced in minor ways every time one momentarily extinguishes dhukka (dissatisfaction) or part of it. It's not an experience that can be "reached" in the sense of staying there: there's no "there" to stay, what there is is a new mind moment to either extinguish the flame again or keep it extinguished.
In this sense, I think psychedelics help, but in a very oblique way. To me, they help me to see the path, and often they light the fire brighter in a way that I can really see how it's there, how I keep it on, and how it's me who can extinguish it. They also help to heal the mind, setting a more stable base to follow the path. They're a high power tool that can help as much as do the opposite, most of the work happens out of the psychedelic experience. I think they come to balance out the lack of tradition, community, and real teachers very characteristic of this time.
But I think psychedelics are extremely open in their possibilities, so whenever one wonders "can they help for X" and X is related to the mind, the answer will be that they can, and they can also be used for the opposite, and it won't matter if X is good or bad. They're catalysts, what is more important is the user.
Here&Now
Titanium Teammate
I'm pretty much in agreement. Once people find a crutch, they tend to lean on it and somewhat forget about their original intention. That applies to myself as well.
But when it comes to 5-MeO-DMT specifically, it's close to being an exception to the rule. For the right person, its use reliably triggers the phenomenon of kundalini, and that has transformational effects that last for weeks/months beyond your last trip. For the motivated practitioner, it opens up a very fertile window to make some real progress.
purrpuss
Feed me!!
I always feel like the eastern spiritualities that have emerged out of civilization in humanity’s recent past could very much be helped by a reconnection back to the plant world and their shamanic roots…
Yes i agree a lot!
In Chan/Zen Buddhism in particular there are descriptions of reality that sound like psychedelic experiences. It's mind-blowing and being a skeptical person it was seeing how those texts matched with my psychedelic journeys that brought me to Buddhism.
But one of the five core training precepts in Buddhism is abstaining from intoxicating substances and unfortunately the vast majority of practitioners includes all drugs, ignoring that in those times psychedelic weren't commonly used in India and that precept referred to drugs that could distract from mindfulness practice by clouding the mind.
And there's also the fact that in most Buddhist schools it's pretty much assumed that it's impossible to experience awakening or even meditation stages / dhyanas in this lifetime unless you are a monk. I think that Zen and Tibetan Buddhism are the only exceptions to this belief, but at least in Zen schools it probably would be seen as untrue or disrespectful if a young lay practitioner said that they had such an experience through psychedelics.
I suspect enlightenment exists but that it is ephemeral. Most of us cannot sustain being at the top of the Holy Mountain over decades. We get dragged down, we fall down, we stumble down due to reality and the vicissitudes of life, we let ourselves be pulled down by distraction and temptation.
Smoalking the moar for that few minutes and even some of the aftermath may literally make me feel and sound enlightened, but then . . . . . well, reality gets in the way. I have to go to work. Dudes are being arses on the street (thank goodness for protective dogs), dudes and gals are being self-centered jerks on the road and making way more close calls than necessary, the cats are fighting or barfing. . . . at 3:45 a.m. when my alarm for work goes off at 5:30 a.m, needly clients are quite literally sending 47 texts (this has happened) after 10 p.m. that are URGENT and I went to bed at 9 p.m.
I am not a yogi, meditating at the top of the Holy Mountain. I am a person with real-world adult responsibilities and expectations. And it is these things and my reaction to them that cause my descent from the Holy Mountain, that make summiting the Holy Mountain seem like a Sisypusian attempt.
Which brings me back to smoalking the moar. We know when we need it. I'm not talking about the call or the craving for the novel and gorgeous. I'm talking about the feeling of buildup of toxicness in the body and mind. Sometimes a good smoalk and other times a potent purgerific brew are all that are needed for a quick reset/defrag which allows one to increase, at least temporarily, one's ascent rate.
Smoalking the moar for that few minutes and even some of the aftermath may literally make me feel and sound enlightened, but then . . . . . well, reality gets in the way. I have to go to work. Dudes are being arses on the street (thank goodness for protective dogs), dudes and gals are being self-centered jerks on the road and making way more close calls than necessary, the cats are fighting or barfing. . . . at 3:45 a.m. when my alarm for work goes off at 5:30 a.m, needly clients are quite literally sending 47 texts (this has happened) after 10 p.m. that are URGENT and I went to bed at 9 p.m.
I am not a yogi, meditating at the top of the Holy Mountain. I am a person with real-world adult responsibilities and expectations. And it is these things and my reaction to them that cause my descent from the Holy Mountain, that make summiting the Holy Mountain seem like a Sisypusian attempt.
Which brings me back to smoalking the moar. We know when we need it. I'm not talking about the call or the craving for the novel and gorgeous. I'm talking about the feeling of buildup of toxicness in the body and mind. Sometimes a good smoalk and other times a potent purgerific brew are all that are needed for a quick reset/defrag which allows one to increase, at least temporarily, one's ascent rate.
Here&Now
Titanium Teammate
Yeah, interesting thought, I wonder. It seems like in the mystical traditions, a clear line of demarcation is never quite drawn to define when the threshold of irreversible enlightenment is reached. Perhaps it's not that different from muscle building in the sense that those heights can't be maintained without some amount of maintenance.
In most of the Theravada that belief is not shared either.
I didn't know! I was only aware about the Thai Forest Tradition not sharing that belief
As far as I know, it's not generally shared in Thailand, Burma, and Laos, at least (I suppose there may be some branches there that do think like that, and a lot of the lay people do). I'm unsure about the situation in Taiwan and Sri Lanka.
I do think the belief that even jhanas are something out of reach for most has receded in Theravada due to the influence of the Thai forest tradition. Before the 19th century it seems to have been much more widespread.
It makes sense for it to recede, jhanas at least are very much reachable even by not very dedicated practitioners. At least first jhana is.
LuxObscura
Titanium Teammate
I wonder if those who can be considered enlightened do feel for themselves as so.
And those who think they are enlightened behave the way they feel.
And those who think they are enlightened behave the way they feel.
i have a Sri Lankan friend who told me that the Sri Lankan forest tradition is very similar to Thai's
Right action, speech and so on are part of the nature of an awakened being and they can't be separated from it. So a person could have a brief awakening experience, spontaneously or through practice or even psychedelics IMO, and then go back to their regular experience. Such people could believe to be awakend/enlightened because of that experience. It's considered a common phenomenon and something to watch out for. But if someone is awakened/enlightened they behave acccordingly, otherwise they aren't
Any institution is very far from its original purity. People love to complicate things until the next Buddha brings back simplicity.
The Truth is simple and echoes throughout the centuries, but we don't believe it at all. Who cares what traditions consider right?
Go back to basics: take what is useful and disregard the rest. It's not about some God, saints, or devotion to an imaginary entity.
It's about YOU and always has been. Who am I? That's the question. It invites an honest look inside.
When you understand what the game is all about, just sit under a tree. Enlightenment is beyond words.
The Truth is simple and echoes throughout the centuries, but we don't believe it at all. Who cares what traditions consider right?
Go back to basics: take what is useful and disregard the rest. It's not about some God, saints, or devotion to an imaginary entity.
It's about YOU and always has been. Who am I? That's the question. It invites an honest look inside.
When you understand what the game is all about, just sit under a tree. Enlightenment is beyond words.
