DMT and enlightenment

[northape]

Spiritual communities are just as biased as everyone else. They ban any drug without a deeper look.
Meditation teachers assume a high and mighty attitude, believing they are somehow better than poor drug users.
They recall their LSD days and how a dozen trips made them experts in the field. Somehow, many miss the point
that their whole spiritual endeavor started after LSD. Without psychedelics, there would be no current level of
Dharma in the West, in my opinion.

 

[LuxObscura]

Another thought:
There have been countless things in my life I wanted to achieve, by chasing them.
But ironically, the chase itself often made the distance grow.

And there have been countless things I stopped chasing.
Interestingly, those things found their way to me once I stopped running after them.

But I believe it's important to stay aware of the bias:
Nothing comes to you entirely on its own.
It's about how we strive for things performatively, with pressure, or naturally, with intention.

For myself, I've learned this:
I work for the things I want, but I stopped chasing them.

 

[northape]

@LuxObscura, life itself is the Guru. This basic sanity and wisdom exist in everyone.
A good teacher would point you in the right direction and cut through your illusions when necessary.
This is only possible in a personal, one-on-one relationship. Today, Buddhadharma is mostly an industry.
They need money for monasteries and various projects, so they teach and offer retreats.
More than ever, we need to take responsibility for ourselves and cut through all the chatter.
Be real, look inside, and stop chasing the shadows of enlightenment

 

[Voidmatrix]

Alrighty, good as new.

One love

 

[LuxObscura]

@LuxObscura, life itself is the Guru. This basic sanity and wisdom exist in everyone.
A good teacher would point you in the right direction and cut through your illusions when necessary.
This is only possible in a personal, one-on-one relationship. Today, Buddhadharma is mostly an industry.
They need money for monasteries and various projects, so they teach and offer retreats.
More than ever, we need to take responsibility for ourselves and cut through all the chatter.
Be real, look inside, and stop chasing the shadows of enlightenment

Yes, maybe, but honestly, I’m still figuring this out for myself.
Sometimes I wonder if we really need fixed roles like teacher to share wisdom.

Maybe people can simply support each other, without attaching too much to labels.
Even those who teach others, which is incredibly valuable, often learn through the exchange itself.

But I do see that certain people naturally carry experience, clarity, and the ability to point others in the right direction,
that's where having a teach becomes essential, especially when things get confusing.

Perhaps we can also see it as a shared space, where everyone involved keeps practicing and growing together, regardless of formal titles.
As for me, I wouldn’t want to be seen as a teacher.
Sharing thoughts that helped me personally already feels fulfilling on its own.

It is sad, though, to see how concepts like Buddhadharma can get industrialized, losing some of their original meaning.
But I guess that risk exists with almost any idea, once it spreads widely.

 

[Voidmatrix]

The threads we seek, intricately interwoven, shifting in qualia, and yet independent and refractory, a moving target, ineffable at it's core, we can merely orbit it with our words, unable to delineate what it's like to be at it's core. We dance around. Just be.

One love

 

[IceKoldpp]

out of curiosity i looked up the definition of enlightenment. which wasn't very helpful as the definition is "the act or means of enlightening : the state of being enlightened". so i checked the definitions of those 2 words.

enlightening: providing or tending to provide knowledge, understanding, or insight
enlightened: freed from ignorance and misinformation
(and just for fun bc this term for me wholly defines the effect of a DMT bt experience) ontological shock: a profound disorientation or disruption that occurs when a person's fundamental understanding of reality is challenged or shattered. This can happen when encountering new information or experiences that contradict or invalidate previously held beliefs, leading to a state of cognitive dissonance and existential uncertainty. Essentially, it's a crisis of worldview, where one's core assumptions about the nature of existence are questioned.

so i would say that for me at least, the first bt experience does provide a level of enlightenment simply by the revelation that there is certainly more going on than what we are able to perceive when in our base unaltered state. what alot of us refer to as a peek behind the curtain. i remember the sheer ontological shock of that first breakthrough and many since. although to me enlightenment seems to imply that some answers are gained, where DMT leaves me with alot more questions than answers. but at least now i'm aware of the questions so that i can ponder the answers.

i certainly wouldn't say that i'm enlightened but i would say that DMT is to a degree, enlightening.

 

[Here&Now]

A definition of enlightenment from one of my favorite traditions, Vedanta Hinduism.

Enlightenment (moksha) is the realization and experiential knowledge of one's true Self (Atman) as non-different from the ultimate reality, Brahman. It is the liberation from ignorance (avidya), suffering, and the cycle of birth and rebirth (samsara), achieved through Self-Knowledge that reveals the non-dual nature of existence. Enlightenment is characterized by the transcendence of the ego and material attachments, leading to eternal bliss, peace, and freedom from karmic bondage. It is not merely intellectual understanding but a profound transformation where one recognizes oneself as limitless, changeless, ever-free pure awareness or consciousness (svayam prakāśa).

 

[Here&Now]

i certainly wouldn't say that i'm enlightened but i would say that DMT is to a degree, enlightening.

I like this, and I agree with the sentiment. Psychedelics sure give a powerful glimpse behind the curtain.

 

[Voidmatrix]

The plurality of definitions, and the predicated influence of environment, I sometimes wonder if there are more than one type/class/flavor of what we categorize as "enlightenment."

Also, the term is a blanket term. In eastern traditions it's a bit more nuanced and sometime enlightenment isn't really the right translation for some eastern described "enlightened" state.

One love

 

[Here&Now]

The plurality of definitions, and the predicated influence of environment, I sometimes wonder if there are more than one type/class/flavor of what we categorize as "enlightenment."

Also, the term is a blanket term. In eastern traditions it's a bit more nuanced and sometime enlightenment isn't really the right translation for some eastern described "enlightened" state.

One love

I think this is somewhat the case. When you look at advanced traditions that have forked over time, such as Buddhism, their highest goal evolves as well. It started off in the Buddha's time as simply reaching nirvana, which is synonymous with nirvikalpa samadhi. It's difficult, but not unattainable for a dedicated practitioner. As the teachings continued, the goal moved much more towards a fully embodied non-duality that encompasses every aspect of your being, which is definitely a taller order.

So even within a single tradition, enlightenment hasn't remained static.

 

[IceKoldpp]

The plurality of definitions, and the predicated influence of environment, I sometimes wonder if there are more than one type/class/flavor of what we categorize as "enlightenment."

Also, the term is a blanket term. In eastern traditions it's a bit more nuanced and sometime enlightenment isn't really the right translation for some eastern described "enlightened" state.

One love

i agree wholly. this is why my first instinct was to look for the most base definition for the word. i wanted to avoid as much as possible getting to woo woo with the term and go from there. i find when discussing anything that if we can't even agree on a common definition of the terms we're meant to relate it makes it much more difficult to move forward coherently.

 

[Voidmatrix]

I think this is somewhat the case. When you look at advanced traditions that have forked over time, such as Buddhism, their highest goal evolves as well. It started off in the Buddha's time as simply reaching nirvana, which is synonymous with nirvikalpa samadhi. It's difficult, but not unattainable for a dedicated practitioner. As the teachings continued, the goal moved much more towards a fully embodied non-duality that encompasses every aspect of your being, which is definitely a taller order.

So even within a single tradition, enlightenment hasn't remained static.

Yeah, in some traditions, "enlightenment" is but the first stage...

Also, there are traditions that have synonymous ideals but are still "alien" to eastern ideals, such as in certain African traditions.

i agree wholly. this is why my first instinct was to look for the most base definition for the word. i wanted to avoid as much as possible getting to woo woo with the term and go from there. i find when discussing anything that if we can't even agree on a common definition of the terms we're meant to relate it makes it much more difficult to move forward coherently.

What's funny is the definition, etymologically, mau derive from a source that we would consider woo woo lol

One love

 

[IceKoldpp]

A definition of enlightenment from one of my favorite traditions, Vedanta Hinduism.

Enlightenment (moksha) is the realization and experiential knowledge of one's true Self (Atman) as non-different from the ultimate reality, Brahman. It is the liberation from ignorance (avidya), suffering, and the cycle of birth and rebirth (samsara), achieved through Self-Knowledge that reveals the non-dual nature of existence. Enlightenment is characterized by the transcendence of the ego and material attachments, leading to eternal bliss, peace, and freedom from karmic bondage. It is not merely intellectual understanding but a profound transformation where one recognizes oneself as limitless, changeless, ever-free pure awareness or consciousness (svayam prakāśa).

while i can't say that i 100% identify with this as being "the" truest definition of the word simply because it takes into account a belief system and applies that to the definition of a word used commonly outside of said belief system, i very much love that definition of enlightenment. and even feel that it is probably as correct as any other definition. very beautiful

 

[Here&Now]

Also, there are traditions that have synonymous ideals but are still "alien" to eastern ideals, such as in certain African traditions.

That's true, stuff like Vodou (Voodoo) from Africa are wildcards. I feel like they must relate to eastern teachings in some ways, since we're all just humans accessing the available landscapes of consciousness, but they're most certainly looking at it from the their own unique angle.

 

[Voidmatrix]

That's true, stuff like Voduo (Voodoo) from Africa are wildcards. I feel like they must relate to eastern teachings in some ways, since we're all just humans accessing the available landscapes of consciousness, but they're most certainly looking at it from the their own unique angle.

Yes, one defining difference can be found in the sense of identity and how that's something very specific that actually has a unique continuity within the "all."

One love

And now that I think about it, from a Vedic perspective, there is a sense of identity maintained when Brahman awakens and the falls back into slumber, at least according to the perspective in Wisdom of the Vedas.

 

[CosmicRiver]

"enlightenment" is a translation that has nothing to do with the original terms in eastern traditions
Bodhi = awakening
Kensho = recognizing one's nature
Satori = understanding
Rigpa = knowledge
and so on

 

[CosmicRiver]

so all these terms imply something else, awakening to something, recognizing one's nature [of being awakened to something], understanding something, knowledge of something
and this something can't be described through words because words describe concepts but the experience of awakening defies any possible conceptualization or description

as Here&Now2 said it's not an intellectual realization but an experiential knowledge. in Buddhism compared to Hinduism freedom comes from transcending also the concept of Self and the concept of non-Self

 

[blig-blug]

As @Here&Now2 pointed out, even in a same branch there are different perspectives on what the goal is. And what some see as higher goals, other see as a delusion that leads astray from the path.

I think the most fruitful approach is to reflect on the common points of our respective goals and support each other at them. The frequently heated discussions on what goal is The Goal and what path is The Path pull everyone involved away from their goals and paths.

The Nexus is generally quite good at avoiding this, so this is just something I wanted to point out.

 

[s2cndchance]

DMT and Enlightenment. Thoughts?

One love

If enlightenment means understanding what's actually going on behind the scenes of this whole living experience, I'd say yes it can be gained from DMT if you can sustain great awareness through it and experiment a lot. From what I gather this place and this experience is, as far as I can tell since doing this, absolutely low - grade. As far as possible experiences go, this one is bologna, but it does contain meaning and purpose for other entities that aren't you. Or at least... they aren't me.

I have no idea how people can have these mind blowing awesome experiences on DMT, like me, and then somehow convince themselves that having this experience should be normal and not wonder why they aren't having a better time somewhere else. They usually come up with some doublespeak answer that defies the very reality they are forced to indulge in for 99.9% of their lives by attributing some value to it that requires putting blinders on to everything else... But somewhere deep down, I suspect that they know that rocks are not cake no matter how much they try to eat rocks and enjoy it...

I definitely don't believe enlightenment comes from moral action. But I do think DMT will feed that to you if you let it.