DMT + Cocaine

[Jörmungandr]

I don't think this is a clear cut argument.

What I would add to the discussion though is that plant based natural substances normally do not cause significant suffering to people outwith those that take them. Normally. There is still scope for abuse of natural substances in a harmful way and unethical harvesting.

Synthetic substances due to the vast profits associated with their consumption can leave a trail of misery from source to consumer.

I fail to see the difference in the "suffering" to anybody between whether I choose to vaporize pure DMT crystal, or consume ayahuasca instead. In my case I would be using the same mimosa bark.

Maybe I didn't make myself very clear Global. What I was getting at was the profits that go into organised crime. For example the cocaine trade and the misery that it causes rather than the difference between vaporizing dmt crystal or consuming ayahuasca. As long as the mimosa bark is harvested sustainably I see no difference in your ingestion method.

 

[jamie]

"These notions of plants and plant spirits are not mine but shamans so if you if u disagree with this your are disagreeing with the shamans of the amazon and sacred knowledge acquired directly from the plant spirits not from you. Your and most people's viewpoints on this are based on ideas that were easier to conceive and believe than the truth."

You hold a very limiting point of view..and I am going to go out on a limb here and call you a rationalistic dualist. You are doing the same thing many scientists do but sort of in reverse. Categorizing and seperating things..this has spirit but that cant have spirit etc..that is dualism and rationalsim. You dont see the whole. Many people do this when it comes to plant spirits vs chemcials etc but they act like they are not rationalists becasue they talk about spirits. It is a fallacy.

For one thing, why are you lumping my views in with the the rest of "most peoples" view? Most people in the west are NOT animists, do not believe that inanimate objects like a rock or a crystal have a spirit etc. How are my views as an animist being lumped together with most peoples viewpoints?

How is my animist viewpoint easier to conceive than the typical western point of view that observes everything as dead inamimate objects etc? To make that statement you must have either not even read what I said or you just dont understand what animism means. I dont know what else to say to you here.

To assume that plants can have spirits but crystals cannot hold spirits is just plantcentricism.

In reality your views do not represent those of most indigenous peoples I should think. Just becasue you spent some time with indigenous curranderos does not mean their opinions can speak for ALL indigenous peoples. I studies shamanic cultures at college and animism is a common trait among most of them..the dont differentiate between what has a spirit and what does not have a spirit. Sorry but what you are saying is not consistant with animistic worldviews. It is likely a lot of curranderos have views that are also tainted by western ideals. Animism implies that there are spirits within everything. A pair of Nike shoes could house a spirit in animistic models of reality. Crystals definatly could house spirits, whether it's a hunk of quartz or a hunk of DMT.

BTW, Terrence Mckenna took lots of pure synthetic DMT crystals and raved about the stuff..in case you never heard. He also was working with pure synthetic psilocybin the summer before his death. He was a big fan of microdosing LSD also. He was hardly against using pure alkaloids.

When Claudio Naranjo way back in like the 60's maybe 50's went to the amazon to learn about yage he brought a sheet of acid with him, to trade with the natives. He appraoched them as if he was a western medicine man and LSD was his medicine and he dosed them. These people loved his LSD and said it was great medicine and so in turn they taught him about Yage.

I have heard multiple stories now about curranderos in the amazon who love vaporized DMT and think it's great.

Some curranderos work with pure camphor crystals in ceremonies for cleansing etc..try and tell them a crystal has no spirit.

You cant just come here and be like "oh I drank ayahuasca in peru with a currandero my vies represent views of the entire amazon". That is laughable.

I have drunk ayahuasca hundreds of time and smoked DMT hundreds of times. I dont need to refer to amazonian peoples to figure out what my views are on the subject here.

 

[jamie]

"I first learned about this knowledge from a village shaman that heals the locals that barely takes any money, not the tourist shaman, and confirmed that this knowledge is wide spread through a couple other shamans during my 2 year stay in Peru. And more than just believing something that i was told, i described in previous post how through personal experience it all fell in place. Always a difference between knowing and experience. So dont believe something cause I or anyone tells you, just keep open mind and open eyes."

Everyones viewpoint has it's limits. Everyones. Jungle ayahuasqueros included. Crystalized plant extractions etc are something from out world, not theirs. What makes one guys view the authority when even other jungle curranderos will say something else entirely? The fact that african healers in a tribe have favored 2cb over the rest of their visionary plants is proof that not all indigenous healers or shamans in animistic cultures agree with you.

I think you are getting close to building up ideas in your mind about these people that are not realistic..this is just like the noble savage syndrom. These people are all just people. They dont know everything just like the rest of us. They have their taboos and we have ours.

 

[ntwhtyouknw]

I agree, you can't really say a plant has a spirit but an extract or essence of the plant does not. It would be a double standard. I believe everything has spirit and make the allegory of music and places like spirit of jazz, spirit of new Orleans, we all have vibes.

 

[devineinmymind]

Sorry I think you guys misinterpreted what I'm saying here, and sorry if i offended you jaime and when i said most people didnt mean the general public talking about how most people that take certain substances dont see the dark side to them. Example I know countless people that do coke, drop lsd and mdma every week at parties and such thinking they are doing them good when they are blind to what is really happening which i described in previous post. Also Im in no way and never talked against dmt or synthetic psyilcibin, these 2 i believe have high potential for healing, esp when extracted and used with care and respect. And no Im not saying that only plants have spirit, this is rediculious, indeed anything can hold spirits. Im talking about the chemicals from pharmasutacal companies, manufactured mdma, cocaine...It all has to do with the process from source to product. The plants that the substances are derived from are highly disrespected and abused to get where they are. For example mdma is the product of heinous deforestation through criminal organizations in Cambodia. Same with cocaine.. These are what drive away the healing and protective spirits in the plants. And you need to consider theyre mixed with all kinds of unhealthy fillers as well. Show love and respect to the plants and they will show it back.

 

[jamie]

^what does LSD have to do with that though? Cocaine we know contributes to destruction of the rainforest etc..MDMA I dont know about that..but why throw in things like LSD? Do you have some proof that these people who drop acid weekly are harming themselves with some sort of dark side to the chemical? I never got into LSD really, only dropped acid a couple times years ago. I was always more into plant alkaloids but I know lots of people who drop acid on a regular basis and it seems to only do them good. There is no evidence that LSD is addictive or toxic..it is one of the safest substances known and is basically proven at this point to be benificial. Are you just assuming this is harming people because of your own beliefs or do you have evidence for this? Why is LSD lumped in there with MDMA and cocaine?..just because it is synthed in a lab from ergot or soemthing?

Just becasue something is snythed in a lab does not mean it was not made with integrity or in a loving positive way with good intentions. This is a huge part of what alchemy is about. Lots of psychedelic chemists are out there who are basically alchemists making these things for the good of humanity..at the same time there are people out there growing plants like cannabis in little tiny rooms drowing them in all kinds of synthetic nutrients etc, only thinking about money and even killing other people in drug wars etc.

This is all relative..plant, plant chemicals or synthetic..I agree with what you are saying about intention but that can be applied to anything and everything..even lab chemicals. I would stay away from big pharma products becasue of this. I think Big Pharma is negative magick..sure there is spirit there too..but it's very negative.

 

[devineinmymind]

lsd is one of the harder ones to argue, it is almost purely chemical based, not nature based so instead of taking you into realms of nature/the universe and connecting you to nature ur spirit and body, it leads you into a sort of fake realm and like described before has sort of trixter quality high probablity of feeding the ego and false sense of happiness, and it has no kind of guiding spirit within the lsd. Same thing with all research chemicals. Is there physical proof to this, no, but we are living in a world far beyond traditional science. Because of this I think Terence mckenna never promoted one of these in his entire life. He never denounced them either, because he was too smart for that. Im coming out on this because I unlike him dont have anything to loose here. And again with the plants yes everything has to do with how the plants were treated and used, towards whether they will benefit or harm.

 

[Global]

lsd is one of the harder ones to argue, it is almost purely chemical based, not nature based so instead of taking you into realms of nature/the universe and connecting you to nature ur spirit and body, it leads you into a sort of fake realm and like described before has sort of trixter quality high probablity of feeding the ego and false sense of happiness, and it has no kind of guiding spirit within the lsd.

It's derived from the ergot fungus; the same fungus that was allegedly used in the psychoactive initiatory brew kykkeon at the Greek Elyeusian mystery schools.

 

[universecannon]

lsd is one of the harder ones to argue, it is almost purely chemical based, not nature based so instead of taking you into realms of nature/the universe and connecting you to nature ur spirit and body, it leads you into a sort of fake realm and like described before has sort of trixter quality high probablity of feeding the ego and false sense of happiness, and it has no kind of guiding spirit within the lsd. Same thing with all research chemicals. Is there physical proof to this, no, but we are living in a world far beyond traditional science. Because of this I think Terence mckenna never promoted one of these in his entire life. He never denounced them either, because he was too smart for that. Im coming out on this because I unlike him dont have anything to loose here. And again with the plants yes everything has to do with how the plants were treated and used, towards whether they will benefit or harm.

Thats just your opinion and it'd be helpful to the conversation if you stop acting as if its such a solid fact. Almost everyone here will disagree with you on this it seems.

How much deep experience do you even have with lsd? What you said doesn't resonate with my experiences at all. And the whole question of what is 'natural' is another debate and a ball of wax i really don't feel like getting into hahahah

Also saying terence never 'promoted' lsd is just silly (and so what if he never did? i love the guy but he also said the eschaton would condense last friday and that never happened as far as i know...so constantly citing him as if he only speaks the truth is just stupid)

Terence did talk about lsd several times and proclaimed his love for it..one of the reasons he didn't talk about it much is because he was actually involved in the lsd trade for years...he also took it often himself in the 90's, albeit in lower doses usually. He once said he'd taken it over 150 times. He also recommended that if people are interested in it then the way he found most useful was to take big doses of it every 3 months or something

 

[devineinmymind]

thnks universe lots of info never knew about him, I also think modulation with just about anything is important. And what i said about him just a thought not a belief, so no its not fact just speculation . Knew he used it a lot but I think mostly in in his earlier years though, as have i. I took lsd and research chems countless times, and what i said about it in previous posts is what concluded through experience. And with this, im not talking about a persons personal relationship to the substances, Im talking about the substances and their nature themselves.

 

[ntwhtyouknw]

MDMA production destroys natural habitats of animals and pollutes the forests. MDMA yuck

LSD I can't really see any harm in the production, its actually only semi synthetic as it is developed from a natural fungus.

 

[devineinmymind]

yes i said mostly chemical based, because of this fungus its much better than other chemical psychadelics, and also consider its very difficult to come across pure lsd now adays, but it cannot compare to traditional plant hallucinogens ..and yes thank god it doesnt contribute to destruction of nature

 

[endlessness]

DMT was first synthesized before it was ever found to be a natural substance. Maybe the same will be true for LSD, who knows. If it was found in a plant, maybe even consumed by some obscure tribe, would it change your opinion on it?

The fact that a substance is synthetic has no bearing on whether its more or less useful or spiritual or whatever, this is merely a personal bias or belief.

I think it would be relevant to cite some more tangible criteria on what makes a substance more or less desirable, instead of falling for the fallacious ´natural vs unnatural´ or ´because person X or tribe Y said so´ kind of arguments.

Knowing these criteria also change depending on context and person, some of the things that I would personally take in account are:

- Sustainability of source
- Potential to generate deep learning and transformative experiences
- Good therapeutic index (meaning the active dose is as far as possible from the toxic dose)
- Appropriate health profile in general (addictive potential, side effects, etc)

Im sure there are more things, these are just taken off the top of my head..

What else would be important for you guys and gals?

 

[universecannon]

and also consider its very difficult to come across pure lsd now adays

thats not really true, but we probably shouldn't get into that topic

but it cannot compare to traditional plant hallucinogens

again, thats just YOUR opinion. What about all the people who actually prefer lsd to mushrooms...are they somehow 'wrong' or misguided? To each their own, imo

It seems like your trying to objectively define what lsd is in a broad context on the basis of your own personal and subjective experience with it...thats just projecting/generalizing your own beliefs and biases and doesn't make any sense or have any relevance to the overall reality of the situation

 

[devineinmymind]

dont know where u live but where i live pure lsd is almost impossible to get. And these are just thoughts and ideas Im spreading, not facts and like i said before i dont want or expect you to believe anything im saying, We can each need to find our own truths and people can have different truths, im just sharing my experiences and thoughts/ideas here, you should read the new thread "Sacred, scientific, and heated discussions"

 

[Global]

dont know where u live but where i live pure lsd is almost impossible to get. And these are just thoughts and ideas Im spreading, not facts and like i said before i dont want or expect you to believe anything im saying, We can each need to find our own truths and people can have different truths, im just sharing my experiences and thoughts/ideas here, you should read the new thread "Sacred, scientific, and heated discussions"

Well a big issue in this thread is that you haven't been presenting these "ideas" you're passing around as ideas because that's not how they've been coming across.

 

[Bancopuma]

While on a trip to Peru I drank ayahuasca three times (my first encounters) and my third time was by far the most powerful and profound experience, just myself my best friend and a master shaman. He drank the ayahuasca too and then proceeded to chew coca leaves for much of the night! I guess it may help keep one focused and awake to some degree, but coca leaves in their natural form are invigorating and healthy, containing a number of vitamins and minerals and only a little pinch of cocaine and are a very different beast to the drug encountered on the street. Personally I would have no interest in combining street cocaine and DMT. Stimulants such as cocaine obviously have powerful effects on your heart and blood pressure, but so does DMT. Cocaine in particular constricts blood vessels while increasing heart rate, putting serious stress on your heart. So I think combining the two could be physiologically risky and I would expect it to detract psychologically too. To me DMT gives so much, and cocaine only really takes...I'm not a fan, it does very little to or for me, and as well as the environmental and human destruction it causes, of the people I encounter on cocaine, some of them having a serious problem, none of them seem happy people to me, it doesn't seem to make them any happier, and it seems like they are trying to self medicate for something (so maybe their cocaine use is more of a symptom than an effect).

 

[G]

Coca leaves would be more acceptable puma. Stimulants tend to cause a temporary boost in certain types of intelligence. They often increase the speed at which one can process and retain information. When dmt presents one with such vast amounts of stimuli, a stimulated brain may be more able to process, download, and retain the experience. I may experiment with low doses of coca tea, ginseng, and or phenethylamine to further examine the effects of dmt on a mildly stimulated brain.

I'm still reading through replies. It was not my intention to propagate such a heated argument.
I could have been more mindful as to how my words are perceived. Unfortunately i tend to be imprecise with my words.
Neither was it my intention to discredit those who treat DMT with the sacred respect it deserves. I hoped that my experience would
be received from a more scientific viewpoint. I felt invalidated like perhaps i was viewed as a dirty tweaker/crackhead who lacked
the proper respect for DMT. I do understand how such a pure and miraculous drug would seem tainted by stimulants. I could have better explained how the DMT actually healed us from a painful comedown, and that we were not using it simultaneously with a dangerous drug in a recreational manner. Had i anticipated such controversy i might not have created the topic. Pray i did not personally offend anyone with my aloof and imprecise
articulation

NO BUMP

 

[devineinmymind]

Coca leaves would be more acceptable puma. Stimulants tend to cause a temporary boost in certain types of intelligence. They often increase the speed at which one can process and retain information. When dmt presents one with such vast amounts of stimuli, a stimulated brain may be more able to process, download, and retain the experience. I may experiment with low doses of coca tea, ginseng, and or phenethylamine to further examine the effects of dmt on a mildly stimulated brain.

I'm still reading through replies. It was not my intention to propagate such a heated argument.
I could have been more mindful as to how my words are perceived. Unfortunately i tend to be imprecise with my words.
Neither was it my intention to discredit those who treat DMT with the sacred respect it deserves. I hoped that my experience would
be received from a more scientific viewpoint. I felt invalidated like perhaps i was viewed as a dirty tweaker/crackhead who lacked
the proper respect for DMT. I do understand how such a pure and miraculous drug would seem tainted by stimulants. I could have better explained how the DMT actually healed us from a painful comedown, and that we were not using it simultaneously with a dangerous drug in a recreational manner. Had i anticipated such controversy i might not have created the topic. Pray i did not personally offend anyone with my aloof and imprecise
articulation

NO BUMP

:thumb_up: :d :thumb_up:
Same here. I might have been out of line and unclear with many of my posts so very sorry. We are all human after all, which means we all have a ego and that ego can sometimes get the best of us. The last thing i ever want to do is spread any kind negative energy, lets put these stressed out threads behind us. Its 2013 now new beginnings, lets make them positive, much love

 

[ObsidianKnife]

In all due honesty any substance can be used as an entheogen.

I don't agree. The morphogenetic field (ie, demonic attachment) of the hard/habit-forming substances that cause so much unnecessary suffering and which are not healthy for the body/mind/spirit are a plague in the world.