DMT, Eternity, and God

[Eschaton]

If the experience felt real and it wasn't a dream then by default there is evidence it was real. Doesn't mean it was definitely real. But it sounds pretty real I dunno I didn't experience it.

The first thing I would do if I suspected being drugged is have my urine and blood collected and analyzed. I would look for scars injuries witnesses etc. But you said there is no evidence. So I can't really know all I have is my memory, which can also be studied as evidence but again you said there is no evidence so I can forget that.

But that doesn't imply the information doesn't exist. It just implies that my senses are too limited to figure it out. Thats not a big deal. Courts have to deal with these situations all the time. Humans are limited.

--- You can claim that you simply don’t know if it was real or not. Your first statement suggests this would be your answer. This might be the most reasonable answer of all. But this answer would require you to acknowledge that there are experiences whose objective reality cannot be determined. (An acknowledgement that you’ve never made on this forum.)

Well this is what I would say I don't know I can't claim to know things I can't know.

Of course there are situations where objective reality cannot be determined by a single human being who has no evidence beyond his own memory. I would be insane to think otherwise. That's why I stress objective evidence. You are saying there is no objective evidence which is impossible. There is ALWAYS information and evidence but that doesn't mean I as the human in the situation could ever figure it out.

I prefer the Jungian model because I know that he experienced schizophrenia and he wrote openly about the entities that he encountered within his psyche. His metaphors, in my opinion are about as refined and dead-on as anything I have ever read.

Jung was schizophrenic? I never heard that. If he was why are you taking him so seriously? Schizophrenia is a psychosis people who go through it are prone to delusions and hallucinations.

Okay burnt; that'll be it for me.

Your bigotry is sickening.

I tried. :lol:

You're simply an ignoramus.

Carl Jung was by far and away the most important thinker of our age as far as psychology is concerned, and your clearly stereotypical response only reveals your stature as an absolute, bull-headed, charlatan.

Peace-out.

8)

You do realize that shamanism and schizophrenia go hand in hand, right? Have you done psychedelics? I am beginning to question your validity as a psychonaut. If you don't think that these realms are the realms of the schizophrenic mind, then you clearly aren't taking enough to truly perturb your mind. Either that, or you haven't read enough into it to form a proper opinion and you are just making yourself look like a complete ass. (hint, hint.)

 

[ragabr]

Carl Jung was by far and away the most important thinker of our age as far as psychology is concerned, and your clearly stereotypical response only reveals your stature as an absolute, bull-headed, charlatan.

Are you kidding me? My personal vote goes to Reich, but Freud, Lacan, Leary, Grof & Assagioli all stand above Jung in my own eyes. I hear Zizek is quite the tits as well.

Have you done psychedelics? I am beginning to question your validity as a psychonaut. If you don't think that these realms are the realms of the schizophrenic mind, then you clearly aren't taking enough to truly perturb your mind. Either that, or you haven't read enough into it to form a proper opinion and you are just making yourself look like a complete ass. (hint, hint.)

Completely uncalled for, and had you followed burnt's own expressions of his experiences, it's clear he has done the work. I guess I missed the meeting where a certification board got established.


Also, what bigotry did burnt show in that referenced comment?

If we're going to be questioning psychonautic cred, it might as well go to you're claim that these realms are the same as those of the schizophrenic experience. Anyone with enough experience knows that LSD space != mescaline space != dmt space != ayahuasca space != haoma space. So how could schizophrenic space == all of the above?

 

[lyserge]

You do realize that shamanism and schizophrenia go hand in hand, right? Have you done psychedelics? I am beginning to question your validity as a psychonaut. If you don't think that these realms are the realms of the schizophrenic mind, then you clearly aren't taking enough to truly perturb your mind. Either that, or you haven't read enough into it to form a proper opinion and you are just making yourself look like a complete ass. (hint, hint.)

LOL, yes the people I've met who are like Burnt can't possibly comprehend why most people find them so incredibly annoying; I've tried many times to explain things to them, as you did, but it's impossible! I've tried explaining to psychologists how the "schizophrenia" label is essentially an easy label in which to put phenomena that can't be modelled using the guiding paradigms of 20th century Western psychiatry/psychology, but they inevitably rationalize the "schizophrenia" label with the usual "psychotic, delusional" descriptors. You can explain or rationalize anything if you put enough effort into it.

And Eschaton, how fascinating to hear of the beings Jung encountered and described as being "workers" helping along the integration of the unconscious.

 

[ragabr]

LOL, yes the people I've met who are like Burnt can't possibly comprehend why most people find them so incredibly annoying; I've tried many times to explain things to them, as you did, but it's impossible!

Sure, since psychedelics teach us only one interpretation of reality is correct and you happen to be one of the few who have stumbled upon it.

Edit: burnt has demonstrated s/he knows very well why many find hir incredibly annoying. S/He still finds it hir heart to share with us.

 

[Saidin]

You do realize that shamanism and schizophrenia go hand in hand, right?

He does know this. He once posted a talk by an evolutionary biologist from Stanford (a "real" scientist, not one of the "fake" ones with the same degree) that basically proved the connection.

 

[damiana]

Eschaton, Interesting read. I have to inquire about the cyclical nature of the universe. What if it was a helix? If so, the universe would still be cyclical in a sense, at the same time allowing us to move from one life to another, to be reborn as different individuals. Know what I mean?

 

[Saidin]

Eschaton, Interesting read. I have to inquire about the cyclical nature of the universe. What if it was a helix? If so, the universe would still be cyclical in a sense, at the same time allowing us to move from one life to another, to be reborn as different individuals. Know what I mean?

Interesting idea. Makes sense to me, and matches with some of the informational dreams I've had. More of a spiral, rather than a circle.

 

[lyserge]

Sure, since psychedelics teach us only one interpretation of reality is correct and you happen to be one of the few who have stumbled upon it.

Edit: burnt has demonstrated s/he knows very well why many find hir incredibly annoying. S/He still finds it hir heart to share with us.

Aye point taken, thank you ragabr, and Burnt I hope you'll continue to share useful information, though I suppose that's likely given the length of time you've been coming back here, quite a while. I've simply encountered this sort of attitude many times before in university faculties and other real life situations and it manages to get under my skin.

Back on subject...is there any limit to the "spiralling" out? I agree that the circular model is too simplified for properly modelling evolution and "the Eternal Recurrence" makes more sense if each recurrence occurs at a higher "octave". I find some aesthetic truth in Terence McKenna's proposal of novelty - the appearance of forms against the backdrop of nothingness - as the real-life manifestation of the Divine or Cosmic or "I AM" Imagination - "the universe is more like a great thought than a great machine", in the words of Sir James Jean.

 

[burnt]

Whatever :roll:

 

[Eschaton]

Whatever :roll:

Figures.

:lol:

I still love you burnt.

8)

 

[Eschaton]

Eschaton, Interesting read. I have to inquire about the cyclical nature of the universe. What if it was a helix? If so, the universe would still be cyclical in a sense, at the same time allowing us to move from one life to another, to be reborn as different individuals. Know what I mean?

Yes I do; I definitely believe that the Universe could very well "be" spiral-like; however, the way in which it is is beyond my ability to properly comprehend.

Did you check out this page on my site? Talk about mind-bending.

http://www.wedietorememberwhatwelivetoforget.com/Lynds.html

I like to think of the Universe as a fractal; a torus of which time is spiral. A hologram, so to speak.

Torus - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I believe that, since we are all One, we all live the same idiosyncratic existence over and over again; yet paradoxically, as you said, we also live ALL existences. It is only due to our biology that we are completely unaware that we are also all other beings and all other times, coexisting simultaneously as Eternity/God.

The subject itself is beyond fascinating; most of all, it is inherently paradoxical, so to have any absolute opinions on the matter is utterly pointless; all we can do is speculate. However, there are some models which hold sway more than others, hence why I am so keen on the cyclical model. It seems to explain many problems about the Universe as we know it and especially, it really resonates with my own peculiar experiences.

 

[jbark]

How about, as a model of the universe, or of reality itself in its entirety:

An eternally folding reflective punctured torus of one consciousness, no inside, no outside, no beginning no end,
bending, gyrating, enveloping, folding over itself and reflecting the reflection of itself reflecting - this multitude of reflections creating the illusion of many, of infinite consciousnesses, all containing all others but distinct unto itself...

Just a-musin'...

JBArk

imagine this with a mirrored surface:

 

[damiana]

I believe that, since we are all One, we all live the same idiosyncratic existence over and over again; yet paradoxically, as you said, we also live ALL existences. It is only due to our biology that we are completely unaware that we are also all other beings and all other times, coexisting simultaneously as Eternity/God.

Well said, couldn't agree more.

 

[narmz]

Your bigotry is sickening.

What?

your clearly stereotypical response only reveals your stature as an absolute, bull-headed, charlatan.

Seriously?

Have you done psychedelics? I am beginning to question your validity as a psychonaut.

This is sad.

If you don't think that these realms are the realms of the schizophrenic mind, then you clearly aren't taking enough to truly perturb your mind.

So the fuck what? You are such a judge man. Where do you get this objective assurance? You haven't experienced schizophrenia, first off, so we're back to the same problem again, you're just guessing. To do enough drugs to make you schizophrenic isn't anything to brag about anyhow. Folks use psychedelics for many different purposes and in varying doses- you're very narrow in your thinking man.

you are just making yourself look like a complete ass. (hint, hint.)

He wasn't disrespectful, he just questioned. You should be up for discussing and considering others views and concerns on your own thoughts if you decide to post them on the internet. I think it might be the other way around. (hint, hint.)

 

[Eschaton]

Your bigotry is sickening.

What?

your clearly stereotypical response only reveals your stature as an absolute, bull-headed, charlatan.

Seriously?

Have you done psychedelics? I am beginning to question your validity as a psychonaut.

This is sad.

If you don't think that these realms are the realms of the schizophrenic mind, then you clearly aren't taking enough to truly perturb your mind.

So the fuck what? You are such a judge man. Where do you get this objective assurance? You haven't experienced schizophrenia, first off, so we're back to the same problem again, you're just guessing. To do enough drugs to make you schizophrenic isn't anything to brag about anyhow. Folks use psychedelics for many different purposes and in varying doses- you're very narrow in your thinking man.

you are just making yourself look like a complete ass. (hint, hint.)

He wasn't disrespectful, he just questioned. You should be up for discussing and considering others views and concerns on your own thoughts if you decide to post them on the internet. I think it might be the other way around. (hint, hint.)

Really, man? :lol:

Can you not read? :idea:

I am very serious; burnt is a bigot, end of story. However, I feel absolutely no need to go toe-to-toe with you, because it will be utterly pointless.

So to sum this up: I believe you are inherently confused, as burnt was the one who judged me from the get-go and he did it in a bull-headed way. And, actually, while your foot is still in your mouth, I have experienced schizophrenia; so once again, where are you coming from with this post? To burnt's rescue? He didn't even attempt to refute what I said. I wonder why? Perhaps you should.

Seems to me you are merely shooting from the hip and trying to play moderator, when in fact, you are only throwing more fuel on the fire; how antithetical. I am clearly not bragging about schizophrenia, so I don't know where you get off making that extrapolation; methinks you didn't think this post through very well. It reeks of mere emotion-response. I find it hilarious how I am the one who is narrow in my thinking. Once again, are you reading the right thread?

To refresh your faltering memory:

You can't truly experience death without being dead. Once your dead you don't come back that's why its called being dead. Therefore your method wouldn't work. Its a fantasy. The only thing you can find out is what it feels like right before you die. But never what its like to be dead until you are dead.

Dictionary.com | Meanings & Definitions of English Words

The world's leading online dictionary: English definitions, synonyms, word origins, example sentences, word games, and more. A trusted authority for 25+ years!

dictionary.reference.com

Jung was schizophrenic? I never heard that. If he was why are you taking him so seriously? Schizophrenia is a psychosis people who go through it are prone to delusions and hallucinations.

Dictionary.com | Meanings & Definitions of English Words

The world's leading online dictionary: English definitions, synonyms, word origins, example sentences, word games, and more. A trusted authority for 25+ years!

dictionary.reference.com

He was most definitely disrespectful and most of all, bigoted, in his responses.

Perhaps you should touch up on your reading comprehension? (hint, hint)

By the way, don't drag this thread down with fighting; it is entirely pointless and it only serves to waste all of our time. If you care to send me anything; send me a PM. If anything, mind your own business and let people take care of themselves. Your post did absolutely nothing, but bump my thread, so actually; thank you.

:d

 

[endlessness]

The kind of answers and attitude from the poster above is a perfect example of what we DONT want in this forum, completely against the attitude we are trying to maintain, and for this reason he had his account suspended for 2 weeks. When he comes back we hope he will express himself more respectfully.

In the meanwhile, if you guys want to continue the discussion, please do so... Just please do not continue with insulting, fight stiring or passive agressive ironic kind of comments.

Good day to all

 

[jamie]

Im sorry this whole link between psychedelics and schizophrenia is a bit played out..they are NOT the same. I dont care what some teacher or book tells you, go live with some far out schizophrenic peple.. Have any of you ever had a schizophrenic family member? There are many kinds of "schizophrenia" and alot of them are not nice at all, and NOTHING like a person tripping. My great grandmother was completely nutz, multiple personalities and used to chase my grandmother and her brother around with a freaking steak knife..the link btween psychedelics and schizophrenia seems week at best to me and way way overhyped, it's just such an easy generalization.

 

[burnt]

There are certain aspects of schizophrenia that resemble psychedelics but I'll bring this into another thread because I found a cool article about it.

Anyway don't bother debating things about me with Eschaton. I don't want to get involved in these kinds of discussions with him/her. It doesn't go anywhere useful.

 

[embracethevoid]

I believe that, since we are all One, we all live the same idiosyncratic existence over and over again; yet paradoxically, as you said, we also live ALL existences. It is only due to our biology that we are completely unaware that we are also all other beings and all other times, coexisting simultaneously as Eternity/God.

Consciousness is the water, matter is the cup. A cup can be empty, a body can be asleep/dead. When the cup is filled with water, drink with the heart then recycle the cup, some One had to spend time to make that cup.

 

[Saidin]

Consciousness is the water, matter is the cup. A cup can be empty, a body can be asleep/dead. When the cup is filled with water, drink with the heart then recycle the cup, some One had to spend time to make that cup.

Nice, I like it. :d