DMT fumarate conversion comparison (pics)

[shiznackazane]

Hmm, well this is bit confusing. SWIM used Amor Fati's non toxic tek for full range spice and decided to convert his fumarate to freebase using the sodium carbonate saturated solution method. On day 3 the jar was pulled from the fridge with stalagmite-esque crystal growth and tannish chunks floating at the top. SWIM filtered off the solution and set the tannish chunks aside believing them to possibly still be DMT-fumarate. After air drying the crystals, beyond a tiny bit of sodium carbonate visible on the top layer, the crystals were completely clear--but the quantity was far too large to be DMT freebase.

3.5 grams of DMT-fumarate were used for the conversion, yet these crystalline flakes weighed in at over 20 grams. The taste was slightly bitter and of course the crystals were completely inactive smoked. SWIM decided to weigh out the tannish chunks pulled from the solution, which was approximately 1.3 grams. The color was slightly lighter than the original fumarate and glistened some in the light. 50 mg were melted (fairly quickly, I might add) onto copper mesh and vaporized, and proved to be very active (no complete breakthrough, but wonderful closed eye fractals and spicy headspace/dimension distortion).

Is it possible that the crystals that precipitated were actually salt by-product (possibly sodium fumarate?) and the tannish chunks are in fact freebase spice? If so, any ideas on why SWIM's crystallization turned out crystal clear chunks of salt rather than spice?

SWIM has dissolved the crystals in distilled water and is planning on putting them in the fridge to see if they recrystallize. If they do, SWIM is going to attempt to pull any freebase out of the crystals using IPA.

Anyone have any ideas? Any help is greatly appreciated, slowly but surely SWIM's knowledge of the chemistry will improve.

 

[Xt]

Friend of mine done the old CaC03 saturated Water method of converting DMT-fumarates twice.
Once it yielded some slightly pinkish / off white freebase crystal DMT.

The second time yielded some tan goopy substance, with a light dusting of white crystalline. Once dried and chopped it resulted in a sand/tan colored freebase.

Any reason for the differences in color? Apparently the second batch was pulled over a period of two weeks. Perhaps there was more there to begin with.

Is Acetone is the only recommended solvent for cleaning these full-range freebase molecules, without loosing the full-range goodness?
Righto.

 

[Malaclypse]

This thread seems like the right place for some questions SWIM has. He seems to be having the same thing going on as shiznackazane did. He did an all natural tek with Calcium Hydroxide and FASW to get the fumarates. He thinks everything went within normal expectations up to then. After doing a wash he ended up with ~.75g of fumarates from 50g of MHRB.

SWIM ended up using the conversion tech 1 leaving in the fridge for 5 total days with .5g of the fumarates. Within the first day or so he could see crystals starting to form and float on the top. At then end of day 5 it looked like the 2 pics attached in the shot glasses.

He then used some tongs to pull out what he could at first and placed in a petri dish. Then poured the shot glass through a coffee filter and spooned up the rest of the stuff at the bottom of the glass. There was some water left attached to the crystals which explains why he saw a bunch of white powdering looking stuff (assuming sodium carbonate that was dissolved in the water) on top of his crystals. The crystals that were floating on top of the liquid were a little more orangish as well as some of the loose floating ones in the glass. But there were a bunch of larger crystals that were pretty much see through. You can see two of them growing from the bottom of the shot glass.

As with shiznackazane, SWIM ended up with crystals weighing in well over what would be possilbe (SWIMS were close to 5g from the .5g of fumarates he attempted to convert to freebase.

Does anyone know what exactly happened here and what those extra crystals are? Where do you think SWIM possibly went wrong here? He notes a couple of things he wasn't fully comfortable with.

1) He couldn't get all his Fumarate to dissolve in warm water even though he had way more than enough and stirred. So end result was there was a lot more water than needed.
2) It was hard for him to tell how saturated the sodium carbonate water wash. It didn't settle nicely visible to the bottom as when saturating water with Fumaric acid. So he kind of eyeballed it to match the cloudiness in the pictures. Could have been oversaturated.
3) The shot glass was just put in the fridge w/o a cover.

So SWIM is wondering what his next steps should be. He would like to keep it food grade if possible, but if there is no option he could try and recrystallize as per the wiki with some naptha.

For endlessness: When you are collecting the freebase from conversion tech 1 do the crystals totally stick to the glass like in the pick, or is that dumped back in from what was collected in the coffee filter?

 

[endlessness]

My guess is the sodium carb solution was over-saturated and the particles hadnt settled yet, and then with the cold of the fridge, appart from DMT a lot of sodium carbonate crashed. Ideally you can just leave the sodium carb solution standing for a while to decant before using, maybe I should edit the wiki to explain this better?

Anyways what you could do now is simply wash this with water, which should dissolve the sodium carb but not the freebase dmt. Just dont throw anything away until you have your final yield, because it can always be recovered if something doesnt go as expected. Dont worry for sure you can keep it food-safe. let us know how it goes with the water wash!

 

[Malaclypse]

Not sure if you need to update the wiki or not. I think SWIM's problem was that it took so little fumaric acid before it settled that he expected the same of the sodium carbonate. This was his first extraction after all . Next time he will wait for it to settle a little. Perhaps to be safe he could just pour the Sodium Carbonate solution through a coffee filter before adding it into the FASW.

He was confused by the results cause there was a slight amount of water on the petri dish along with the clear crystals and the orangish crystals and he assumed all the carbonate would be in the water and not crystalize. He thought it looked like a bit much, but it's hard to eyeball in such small amounts. When he put it on the scale it it was about 5g he knew something was amiss or he stumbled upon a miracle

Will update with SWIM's results.

 

[lorentz5]

Why do you do a lengthy freeze-precip? To get larger x-tals? To remove excess sodium carbonate? After precipitation occurs, why not just evap away the liquid?

 

[obliguhl]

I second this question. I should be much more convinient to freeze it overnight, then thaw it...
Would the quick preciptation yield a less clean product ?

 

[endlessness]

yes quick precipitation yields a less clean product, check in the wiki where I added this tek, Ice House's 10 minutes conversion is also added there, and it yields some kind of tan resin and not white crystals.

And lorentz, after precipitation occurs, why would you evap the water? First of all, water takes a lot of energy/time to evaporate, but even if you do, what you'll get is basically all the sodium carbonate and sodium fumarate from the neutralization (the dmt should have precipitated already). You could, if you want, evap the water and then pull with dry acetone or IPA and evap to see if you can get any more alkaloids. I have a feeling if so, quantity will be very small, if any, if you did everything right before, but of course it would be wonderful if someone tested and let us know

 

[obliguhl]

Ah, now i feel dumb, could have figured that out myself as I've actually read Ice Houses tek.. Sorry

 

[plumsmooth]

Couple of things please...

Sodium Carbonate solubility in Water is apparently 216 grams/liter.

That means that when trying to saturate 100ml, 21 grams can simply be used.

Also swim was in a rush and ended up dumping close to 30ml saturated solution for 1.14 grams spice dissolved in 100ml water.

Does this seem like overkill on the basfication?

Can someone tell me a way to figure out formula for exacting the amount of Na2CO3 saturated solution to add, as to not have more than necessary sticking to crystals?

It has to do with PKA right?

At a certain PH all fumarate will transform to Freebase right?

SO with a PH meter shouldn't one be able to figure out the exact amount saturated solution to add.

Last thing: what's the best way to clean the spice after this conversion?
Thanks again....

 

[endlessness]

If you dump it slowly as well as if it cools slowly, cleaner crystals form.

In any case, you can easily measure by eye, add a bit till it doesnt cloud anymore. Since that quantity is not much compared with the amount of total solution, you shouldnt really have problem with sodium carb contamination, that small amount should stay dissolved in water even in fridge temperatures. In any case once you retrieve the crystals, if you do a dilute sodium carb solution wash, it should dissolve more of the sodium carb and not dissolve the dmt, so thats a way to clean it

 

[plumsmooth]

I was wondering how important the refrigerator cooling part is to this water re-x formula?

I also realized that the solubility of Sodium Carbonate is lessened by about 2/3 when reaching 38 degrees or so.

So what was 21 G per 100 ml is now about 7.

Well, I guess if not over based, that should still allow plenty of storage room in the water for the excess sodium carbonate.

However, for those that might approach this using warm water initially to saturate solution.

There could end up a bit more that necessary sodium carbonate in solution.

I'm really wondering (and I realize that the ceasing of clouding is a fine marker) if there is a specific PH at which freebase spice will fully precipitate out of solution?

This would just minimize any residue.

Also can someone recommend (and maybe it is truly un-necessary) a final clean up option for the water re-x?

IPA with no water will work? And one would simply dissolve and decant through a fine filter than evaporate.

Thanks...

 

[endlessness]

Download the freebase percentage calculator:

Now using pKa, you can see at a given pH how much percent of an alkaloid is in salt form or freebase . DMT's pka is 8.68.

as for cleaning, IPA would dissolve dmt freebase as well as most impurities except for salts like sodium carbonate and sodium fumarate from conversion (if its dry IPA/acetone). A light sodium carb water wash would dissolve polar impurities (like sodium carbonate and sodium fumarate) and not dissolve dmt.

 

[plumsmooth]

Hey when you say light, do you have any idea how little sodium carbonate can be added to H2O2 to make a solution that will not undermine the crystals.

For example if I use just enough to say raise the ph to 8.68, for lack of a better number, would that suffice as a non threatening rinse.

Thank again.

P.S. I am guessing applying the rinse in a buchner funnel with suction would be the best way to clear the crystals of any residue.

One last thing though,

Can straight water be applied without much consequence for the rinse?

I remember reading such.

 

[plumsmooth]

So my friends results are in.
1.14 G Fumarates became .456 FB.
There was no disappointment.
Actually the bark didn't give a whole lot any way and it was a bit older.

The remaining water was rather yellowish and smelled pretty strongly of Dmitrius.

The peculiar thing was that with the initial excitement of looking at the lovely light -- slightly tan -- flakes on the 101 filter,

he quickly threw it into the dehydrator at only about 115-120.

I guess the initial blast of heat started to melt the lot with the exception of a few light crystals that remained on the outskirts of the plate.

Anyway dehydrator was turned down to 95 and things stabilized.
However, now, they were a darker orange-ish yellow color.
And they didn't seem to want to dry very fast.
Left them out over night and they scraped up easily; but they retained their darker color overall...

But one mystery remains: Is Dmitrius a CHAMELEON of sorts.
My friend wants his nice light white/tan fluffy flakes back.

He feels stupid that he rushed the drying process.

Why in the world have they changed color?:?

Thanks for the feedback...

 

[endlessness]

Straight water could in theory be used for the rinse since dmt shouldnt be soluble in water (unless its for some weird reason an acidic water). But just to make sure, you could do a dilute sodium carbonate solution instead, which would make sure no dmt will dissolve in it, and it will still clean well of other polar impurities (such as excess sodium carb, sodium fumarate, etc).


As for the darker color due to warm dehydration, could be a superficial oxidation? In any case it shouldnt be anything to worry about. Smoalk it up

 

[plumsmooth]

As for the darker color due to warm dehydration, could be a superficial oxidation? In any case it shouldnt be anything to worry about. Smoalk it up

Hey thanks, you're probably right.
I guess that means just a bit of oxide creeping in maybe.
Next time slow cure for those babies.

Anyway, thanks for the tech...

Between Lime, Limonene, Fumaric Acid, and the final Na2Co3 transformation,

Swim is in a personal position he never thought he'd be in 10 years ago slowly watching this developing consciousness evolve.

And even though the smoke route in not his preference:
He will have to make an exception at this point to honor and pay homage to the spirit molecule!

He may try to integrate a little fumarate/harmala pre reality check warm up to soften the sometimes harsh effect of reality in one's face Fast...

Thanks agin for sharing the wisdom!!!

 

[plumsmooth]

Quite simply amazing.
Not even a trace of foreign residue.
Much smoother than the just-drying gooey acetate convertion.
Matter of fact I don't think one could call this smoking, if done properly.
Even taste good!
My friend's early days of melted orange spice on raspberry leaf and then smoked in pipe seem ghetto comparatively.
Not to mention the effect on the Lungs...
Kind of changes my whole perception of this form of administration; and is leaving me thinking I may have to incorporate this into the healings.

Still think with that nice lotus lighter VG sells with their GVG a break though may be harder to generate.
So my friend is looking at torch lighters and just read the post about the ARC.

However I see that there are many to choose from, the main criterion being a pistol or horizontal angle to save one from overly inverting their wrist.
I feel pretty spoiled with that last comment

Anyway thanks again...

BTW, I decided one simple way to extra minimize any residue (which already seems relatively non-existent)
is to allow the crystals in water to warm up to room temperature in solution for a day before filtering.

Cold water -- fridge temp -- holds about 3X less Na2CO3.
So I think that move makes for smoother filtering/decanting...

 

[endlessness]

Awesome!

Thanks a lot for sharing your experience. I agree that water crystallized spice is of a totally different order of smoothness as compared with other methods. I wouldnt have it any other way now

Cool idea about letting the solution warm up to room temperature, it makes sense and spice should anyways not dissolve back into solution so you're onto something there!

As for the lighter, I have the ARC, which is really great (and not that it really matters but it looks really epic together with the GVG, adds to the whole 'ritual'). It also has a very long warranty, dont remember how much maybe it was 5 years or something?

In any case Im sure other torch lighters with bent shape will work just fine. Before the ARC I had some cheap china-made 2-bucks torch lighters but they were extremely unreliable and broke very quickly, so make sure you get something with warranty and good reviews

 

[plumsmooth]

I guess I'll see if I can find one for U.S. shipping then.

Part of it is tendency to be one of these fellows who doesn't like to try to hit again after first draw.
Therefore I think torch needed to get deeper and belongs with the protocol.

Part of it is unfortunately the fear that hasn't been conquered yet.

I don't know why it is there though (of course this belongs in a different section of forum);

The warmth I felt in my heart chakra upon initiation was very loving.
And once one is in trance the mental stuff lingering is just chitta.
I'm sure properly there and the chitta will dissolve entirely.

It is not an easy path because it takes a lot of courage.
The vaporizing is so instant and one knows -- or doesn't know what's coming.
Whereas with ingestion, one has time to acclimate.

Vaporizing is like jumping off a cliff.
Maybe the two styles can converge with the use of Harmalas, and or mild pharma foundation.

Thanks aging for sharing; this place represents the hope for communion.
And you folks are my teachers...
Sharing for the love of sharing the light...

P.S. I don't think there is anything close to re-dissolving with room temp carbonate solution.
However crystals may have softened because cold they seemed to "tink" sound the glass when bouncing around.

BTW, half pint mason jar perfect for 1 gram fumarate conversion.
Instead of draining of the floaters and leaving behind the stuck-on-bottom spice to drain upside down.
Butter knife was gently applied and bottom came up in a round sheet like layer that broke in 2.
Then larger pieces were broken up just slightly.
Jar agitated, then pour in buchner = perfect vacuum drain -- to dry.
Dehydrator mistake, heat may equal oxidation turning light colored spice darker.
No problem -- smoalk it up.
In my case, the perfectionist is just a game to prolong facing the inevitable.
An attempt by fear to disguise itself through my ego -- in case you haven't figured that out:roll:
Silly me, personalized Zen paddle time...