DMT Fumarate leaves fumaric acid byproduct?

[youareall]

Hello!

My protaganist in a piece of musical theatre I am composing has just produced some freebase DMT after a STB tek and then a FASA step to remove the DMT of some unwanted impurities. FASA instructions were followed (with the use of some excess fumaric acid than the recipe, to get the last bits of DMT hiding in the acetone). Then the salt was then mixed with sodium carbonate and water to produce a paste which was then dried out on very low heat in the oven with fan, and then acetone added to remove the freebase and leave the sodium carb behind. All went OK (apart from low yield but he is now putting more acetone into sodium carb leftovers assuming that some more goodies must still be trapped in there).

However he has a concern or question: he reasons that when DMT fumarate is mixed with sodium carb this must form a mixture of freebase DMT, sodium carbonate and fumaric acid which is now freed from the DMT fumarate, is this correct? If it is correct then wouldn't the fumaric acid also be picked up by the acetone used to seperate the DMT from the sodium carbonate? AS we know from FASA, fumaric acid is definitely soluble in acetone? And if so, wouldnt then some of the DMT convert back to fumarate in solution with fumaric acid again in the acetone when evaporating? Or if not fumaric acid left sitting in the final product, which our protaganist is concerned about smoking? He is guessing that he must be wrong otherwise the fumarate conversion tek would not be written as such...

Also his acetone that he has added to the sodium carb leftovers to attempt a second pull has now formed an annoying suspension with the acetone after heavy shaking, which he impatiently is wondering if it will ever go. Any opinions on this too? Should he just be more patient?

 

[arcologist]

When you add sodium carbonate I believe you end up with a mixture of freebase DMT and sodium fumarate + excess sodium carbonate, there is no fumaric acid. I think if the acetone is completely dry only the DMT is soluble, therefore allowing a clean extraction. In my experience of using wet acetone, some sodium fumarate? is slightly soluble and will precipitate out once you start to evaporate the acetone.

 

[fathomlessness]

As arcologist said, the high PH of the sodium carb turns the fumaric acid from acid to base.

Make sure you have that mixture well grounded up in a coffee grinder because the acetone may not penetrate larger sodium chunks.

What I do after I make fumaric acid is mix water through the fumaric acid/dmt-fumarate powder and the water picks up all the dmt-fumarate and leaves behind unreacted fumaric acid. That way i can dump a whole load of fumaric acid in and make sure I have converted all the DMT. After I pick up the dmt-fumarate with all the water washes about 4-5 times I then base that and do a mini extraction on it. That way sure beats having to wait for sodium carb to dry then grinding it up very fine etc.

 

[youareall]

As arcologist said, the high PH of the sodium carb turns the fumaric acid from acid to base.

Make sure you have that mixture well grounded up in a coffee grinder because the acetone may not penetrate larger sodium chunks.

What I do after I make fumaric acid is mix water through the fumaric acid/dmt-fumarate powder and the water picks up all the dmt-fumarate and leaves behind unreacted fumaric acid. That way i can dump a whole load of fumaric acid in and make sure I have converted all the DMT. After I pick up the dmt-fumarate with all the water washes about 4-5 times I then base that and do a mini extraction on it. That way sure beats having to wait for sodium carb to dry then grinding it up very fine etc.

Thanks thats a great tip, SWIM will try to grind it up more. Yes think you are right that does sound like a better method, it's a bit late now for SWIM but he will do that next time.

SWIM is a bit concerned that he didnt have a step to remove any excess fumaric acid that he used. Although he is thinking that perhaps using the sodium carb paste method makes it unnecessary to have this step to remove any excess fumaric acid? Because if the sodium carb turns any excess fumaric acid into sodium fumarate which then renders it insoluble in acetone you do not have to wory about any of the excess you used making it into the final product? Also one would know if that was happening because after one pulled from the sodium carb mix into acetone, DMT fumarate would start crashing out of the acetone as freebase DMT combines with any fumaric acid floating in there. This didnt happen with SWIM so I guess its safe for SWIM to assume that none of the excess fumaric acid used made it into the final product?

 

[downwardsfromzero]

No need to SWIM, I'm sure your musical theatre protagonist will be safe enough as a fictional character. YOU, however... need not resort to any such devices, rather let care and discretion be your guards.

if the sodium carb turns any excess fumaric acid into sodium fumarate which then renders it insoluble in acetone you do not have to wory about any of the excess you used making it into the final product?

Precisely.

 

[fathomlessness]

This didnt happen with SWIM so I guess its safe for SWIM to assume that none of the excess fumaric acid used made it into the final product?

Even if it did, a little fumaric acid is actually good for you (helps fight of free radicals), people use it to treat psoriasis. If you are thinking of smoking it however that is harmful but vaping ought to be fine at low temps. I have had friends accidentally smoke dmt-fumarate/fumaric acid combo and they said it was harsh but nothing shocking on the lungs, i know that it is harmful to smoke it though but I am sure in trace amounts you shouldn't be worried.