DMT in traditional chinese medicine ? Let's Research

[The_Alchemist]

Welcome fellow Nexians,

I didn't find such dedicated research here in one place, so maybe it's good idea to start such, so here we go.

I am a European expat living in China for quite few years now, since my first Changa experience i knew it is my destiny to make it, it's a beautiful alchemical process, and I would like to learn it. Since I joined the forum and also before I was trying to find some plants that I could locally find here in China, obviously first choice would be Acacia Confusa, but I am yet to find some source of it to brew some Chinahuasca.

For now however I've been searching for some other herbs that could be utilized for any DMT.
... and every time i find some promising plant on this forum it turns out to be no-go, either has other alkaloids, dmt content is too low, not researched enough andso on.

I hope this tread can also be a map to other resources on the subject, such as this one here which is related Plants Containing DMT In South East Asia Region - Welcome discussion - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus
I unfortunately couldn't find those plant on taobao, only 2 (Evodia rutaecarpa seeds - which is not a good choice as I learned here because of other alkaloids Evodia Fruit Extraction Experiment - Plant Analysis and Substance Testing - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus )

Alchemist might try luck with Phyllodium pulchellum wich some say works, there is nice topic on it here, but seems unfinished, curious if any positive results were achieved

Plants with 5-MeO-DMT - Bufotenine and 5-MeO-DMT - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

and also workspace Phyllodium pulchellum Workspace - Collaborative Research Project - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

Below I post pictures, I'm sure it will be helpful to some to have Chinese translations of those plants, and perhaps somebody had any experience with them, maybe some know for a fact that any of those plants are active, if so please do, also if anyone wants Alchemist to try extraction or test any of those plants he will be more than happy to do a research on that :d

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here also interesting link with translations that I found in this forum

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I feel Chinese ancient knowledge has much to offer, but probably it's all gone now, and some old books on this topics are long forgotten as if they never existed. But if anybody knows of such original books, I would be interested to do some study,

Hallucinogenic plants in Chinese herbals - Wikipedia

I also noticed this link has never occurred in nexus forum, does anybody has any info on those plants? Perhaps ancient ways of using them? do you think those could be potential source of DMT or other psychoactive substances?

 

[Chimp Z]

Phragmites Australis rhizome is used in TCM by itself, it's known as "Lu-Gen".
I don't think they use it for tryptamines at all since it is a cold remedy and cures a few
other things so it for sure is useful as a stand-alone plant.
Though you could definitely mix some MAOI with Phragmites to make it effective as a magic potion.
Some members of the nexus have yielded crystalline extracts from rhizomes submerged in water.
That would be the first ideal candidate to explore, it also grows commonly around the world.

In the Gobi Desert of Northern China and Southern Mongolia, many DMT-containing Acacia trees
exist, such as Acacia Tortillis subsp. Raddiana and Acacia Nilotica. I definitely think researching the
spiritual practices of nomads of northern Chinese territories might yield you some mind-blowing
information. As with many cultures' usage of DMT-plants, it is mostly kept secret from the rest of the world.

 

[downwardsfromzero]

If you were ever looking for a way to convert plain vodka into fake whisky, dried Lu Gen made into a tincture is actually really nice. There's a lot of sugar in reed roots, along with phenolics that are also commonly found in whisky - among them, syringaldehyde which has a pleasant vanilla-like taste (not to mention its structural resemblance to mescaline).

Any tryptamines there may have been seem to be lost in the drying process, making the TCM herbal product useless for would-be extractions.

 

[The_Alchemist]

Thanks Chimp Z, ill look into that Phragmites Australis rhizome, and yeah would be great to research with those tribes, but so far i don't get the chance to do so, i wish i could tho.

In the Gobi Desert of Northern China and Southern Mongolia, many DMT-containing Acacia trees
exist, such as Acacia Tortillis subsp. Raddiana and Acacia Nilotica.

so alchemist reads those 2 species are easy to confuse (similar) ... but can't see any proof of them containing any DMT, so far didn't find anyone who successfully extracted from them alchemist only done his first extraction, and would like to learn, but so far can't seem to find some confirmed plant matter anybody has successfully extracted from if alchemist does that successful extraction, he shall do research on other plants, plant matter is quite cheap here, but first would like to do some certain successful extraction

among them, syringaldehyde which has a pleasant vanilla-like taste (not to mention its structural resemblance to mescaline).

that's interesting, maybe acts like it too

Any tryptamines there may have been seem to be lost in the drying process, making the TCM herbal product useless for would-be extractions.

well so many contradicting information here in other post i see somebody saying

I don't believe tryptamine content even does 'drop' when plant material is dried?

some say yes some say no, some say tryptamines will just be bit less from dried matter

and besides, not necessarily i think, in TCM roots, and brunches are also cut in slices and boiled for medicines (maybe they use just bark itself too, im not sure) so maybe wouldn't work with leafs and other softs, but should be ok with bark, right ?

 

[Cinnamon0325]

Same here. Have you had any progress in your research?

 

[Jagube]

In the Gobi Desert of Northern China and Southern Mongolia, many DMT-containing Acacia trees exist, such as Acacia Tortillis subsp. Raddiana and Acacia Nilotica.

I highly doubt either of these acacias (or any acacia for that matter) would survive the -40C temps that the Gobi desert experiences.

 

[downwardsfromzero]

among them, syringaldehyde which has a pleasant vanilla-like taste (not to mention its structural resemblance to mescaline).

that's interesting, maybe acts like it too

I say structural resemblance in the loosest sense. The three oxygens are in the right place, but only two of them have methyl groups. The aldehyde group will not confer the properties of a phenethylamine, either. Syringaldehyde has a very pleasant vanilla-like odour, which is perhaps not altogether surprising considering it's 5-methoxyvanillin.

Experienced chemists would know what to do with it.

 

[AikyO]

Coming back around here and was wondering if there was any progression in your researchs.

China is full of mystery and deep connection with the movement of energy that has permeated the culture, from the ideograms to the martial arts, reaching into painting or tea. Some Oolong had such striking spirits. Reminded me a lot of the deamsters both in smell and presence. There are as wide of flavors coming from seaweedy taste to more woody shades and mushroom lows. The relationship to the plant is strong and beautiful. Real magic straight from the ages.

Then there is account of both cannabis, Far East might be where the first cultivae of cannabis happened, and magic mushrooms. This page is pretty informative about the latter: Zhi (excrescences) - Wikipedia

Maybe the focus was there though and not the cicadas ...

 

[downwardsfromzero]

The closest thing to progress that I've noted is the most recent Phragmites research thread.

[I've always felt that Bai Ji Li (puncture vine/caltrop plant fruit, Tribulus terrestris) should accompany Lu Gen on account of the plant's purported harmaloid content - although the fruits themselves which constitute the TCM remedy were not found to have a detectable quantity of the 'power'. The elemental quality of these two remedies together is also not balanced but I forget the specifics right now.]

There are sure to be some golden nuggets of information to be found in the Chinese scientific literature so if anyone with the requisite language skills out there has something to share with us, I for one would be very interested.

 

[dithyramb]

Both Lu Gen (common reed) and Bai Ji Li (caltrop) are cosmopolitan plants that don't need to be called by chinese names Also, Peganum harmala grows in China too.

 

[downwardsfromzero]

Both Lu Gen (common reed) and Bai Ji Li (caltrop) are cosmopolitan plants that don't need to be called by chinese names Also, Peganum harmala grows in China too.

This is absolutely true. The names were included in keeping with the topic of the thread. I.e., documentation in context.

China is pretty huge with a correspondingly wide range of ecotopes so the real question is more along the lines of "what can be gleaned from the Chinese herbal literature that might give clues about traditional usage of pschedelic/entheogenic plants, and what phytochemical analyses may have been overlooked due to language barriers?"

Other things that spring to mind are Acacia confusa (ofc), and David Arora's article about "Xiao Renren" - the Chinese experience of magic mushrooms (or a curiously similar phenomenon).

 

[AikyO]

That is one interesting read, "XiaoRenRen". It's amusing how banal it seems to them. Little peoples !

(Reminds me of Arrietty somehow ...)

As for more or less original text, i may try to look out in japanese related stuff, though admittedly this is out my skill range as such specific subjects come with loads of new terms and complexity. It would be hard to find things beyond what was in the Zhi wikipedia article.

 

[Lemon Flip]

From this study: Potent AChE and BChE inhibitors isolated from seeds of Peganum harmala Linn by a bioassay-guided fractionation - PubMed

"Ethnopharmacological relevance: Seeds of Peganum harmala Linn are traditionally used as folk medical herb in Uighur medicine in China to treat disorders of hemiplegia and amnesia. Previously studies have proved that dominating alkaloids in P. harmala show significant inhibitory activities on the cholinesterase."

I didn't look into it further than that, so who knows how long P. harmala has been used. It is very possible that Peganum harmala use as a medicine has revealed itself as an entheogen. I think it is more important to find an MAOI which was used historically for any reason before finding DMT. If we assume DMT use happened historically, it is unlikely it was smoked.

I know both datura and cannabis have been used historically in that region.