(DMT) Just a drug or is it a portal to another dimension?

[Running Bear]

I always hear that DMT, like other classic psychedelics acts at serotonin receptor sites, which produces disruptions in the visual processing system, resulting in hallucinatory phenomena. Even small disruptions with serotonin can produce chaos and alter the way the visual system processes existing inputs. Is there any proof that DMT acts at serotonin receptor sites? They cant even prove that selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors effect serotonin so how could they understand something like psychedelics?

 

[Gone-and-Back]

From Wikipedia:
As with other so-called "classical hallucinogens",[76] a large part of DMT psychedelic effects can be attributed to a functionally selective activation of the 5-HT2A receptor.[55][65][77][78][79][80][81]

Along with the 5-HT2A receptor, it also has binding properties with the majority of the other 5-HT receptor sites. These are the receptors associated with serotonin. It also affects receptors associated with dopamine.

It's not so much that these drugs, along with ssri's, act on serotonin itself, but they act on the receptors instead. That's why if you take ssri's you need higher doses of psychs, because they are both competing for those receptor sites.

 

[Running Bear]

We have no way of measuring serotonin in the brain of a living person. We have not come up with what a normal level of serotonin should be and below which we can say that you would be depressed and above which we can say you will be happy. People with high serotonin levels can be depressed and those with low levels can be happy. Serotonin inducing drugs like ecstasy can make you feel very happy, but so can alcohol and heroin. They don't know anything about SSRI's or psychedelics when it comes to the human brain. I need to see a little science to be convinced which no one seems to have.

 

[urtica]

I would say that it has been well demonstrated that DMT acts as a 5-HT agonist, at least in vitro.

I agree that the 'low serotonin (5-HT) makes you depressed' theory does not hold water, while at the same time people who are depressed often respond well to SSRIs. People who are depressed also often respond well to DMT or psilocybin, both of which are 5-HT agonists.

So it does seem there is a correlation between ingesting chemicals that have an affinity for 5-HT receptors and changes in mood, often positive changes in mood.

Of course, some people have terrible trips on dmt or psilocybin, and some people get even more depressed or suicidal when taking SSRIs...

 

[Orbiting]

Psychedelic Pharmacology

Most psychedelic molecules are structurally similar to if not almost identical to the neurotransmitters we find modulating signal flow in the brain. If we take a close look at the structure of common neurotransmitters (Figure 1) the transmitters most

psychedelic-information-theory.com

this and the next few chapters were essential in my current level of understanding of serotonergic-targeting chems

 

[Running Bear]

I would say that it has been well demonstrated that DMT acts as a 5-HT agonist, at least in vitro.

I agree that the 'low serotonin (5-HT) makes you depressed' theory does not hold water, while at the same time people who are depressed often respond well to SSRIs. People who are depressed also often respond well to DMT or psilocybin, both of which are 5-HT agonists.

So it does seem there is a correlation between ingesting chemicals that have an affinity for 5-HT receptors and changes in mood, often positive changes in mood.

Of course, some people have terrible trips on dmt or psilocybin, and some people get even more depressed or suicidal when taking SSRIs...

Study's show that SSRI's like Paxil and Prozac are no more effective in treating depression than a placebo pill. That means they are no more effective than a sugar pill. I think we are in the dark ages of medicine. It's all a money thing.

 

[Gone-and-Back]

Study's show that SSRI's like Paxil and Prozac are no more effective in treating depression than a placebo pill. That means they are no more effective than a sugar pill. I think we are in the dark ages of medicine. It's all a money thing.

If this was true they would not of been approved for use. Showing more effectiveness then a placebo is one of the things that must be tested before allowing it to become a medication. If it is not more effective then it is not passed.

 

[Running Bear]

In 2002 a team at the University of Connecticut examined 47 depression treatment studies that had been sponsored by drug companies on the antidepressants Prozac, Paxil, Zoloft, Effexor, Celexa, and Serzone. Many of these studies had not been published, but all had been submitted to the Food and Drug Administration (FDA), so they used the Freedom of Information Act to gain access to all the data. They discovered that in the majority of the trials, antidepressants failed to outperform sugar pill placebos. The ones that did slightly edge out placebos, the difference is so unremarkable that they and others describe it as clinically negligible. I'm sure if you do a simple google search you will find ssri placebo study's. The world in not black and white my friend.

 

[Koornut]

The geometry of the receptor site arrangement in the brain IS the stargate dialling system

 

[zapped17]

That DMT has action at serotonin sites, etc - well defined or not by present pharmacological research - doesn't exactly get at the question posed in the title of this post. All experience goes along with neurochemical changes in the brain - serotonin being intrinsic to this process - yet we believe that ordinary perception can be informative about our reality.

I'd say look at Andrew Gallimore's "Building Alien Worlds" 2013, and "DMT and the Simulated Universe", for a neurobiological/computational view of DMT and the brain/mind relationship, which takes seriously the perspective that DMT induced states do enable the experient access to some "form of new information", to put it as neutrally as possible.

I don't think we can say - even if we grant "reality" to the phenomena - whether DMT is a literal portal to a parallel universe such as those described in modern physics. It may be, but there are other intriguing, options.

 

[zapped17]

In 2002 a team at the University of Connecticut examined 47 depression treatment studies that had been sponsored by drug companies on the antidepressants Prozac, Paxil, Zoloft, Effexor, Celexa, and Serzone. Many of these studies had not been published, but all had been submitted to the Food and Drug Administration (FDA), so they used the Freedom of Information Act to gain access to all the data. They discovered that in the majority of the trials, antidepressants failed to outperform sugar pill placebos. The ones that did slightly edge out placebos, the difference is so unremarkable that they and others describe it as clinically negligible. I'm sure if you do a simple google search you will find ssri placebo study's. The world in not black and white my friend.

Yes this is very true, unfortunately. The science is far more ambiguous than most people think on the efficacy of serotonergic antidepressants. There have also been more recent meta analyses (more recent than 2002 that is) published that I'm aware of that call these models into question.

 

[NotTwo]

I'd say look at Andrew Gallimore's "Building Alien Worlds" 2013, and "DMT and the Simulated Universe", for a neurobiological/computational view of DMT and the brain/mind relationship, which takes seriously the perspective that DMT induced states do enable the experient access to some "form of new information", to put it as neutrally as possible.

I don't think Andrew comes up with any kind of evidence for this but despite this I do feel he's very much on track.

I think the main point is that in dreams we are in a completely new environment basically without any connection to the body. However bizarre the environment is or what we can do in it (e.g. fly) it has a basis in what we experience in the waking state. DMT seems to produce or give access to a world which has no relationship to the normal waking state. And what's more there is at least some consensus between those who take it on what is seen in that world. On that basis you'd have to say that the DMT world has some sort of independent existence and DMT allows us to observe it.

IMO it all gets interesting if you take the nondual perspective that nothing has independent existence, that everything is in fact awareness, that which is. I think he looks at this in "What is it like to be a machine elf".

 

[upwaysidedown]

I don't think Andrew comes up with any kind of evidence for this but despite this I do feel he's very much on track.

Scientifically we are unlikely to uncover any real scientifically acceptable evidence that any of these experiences are information from "external" sources.

Even if we had consistent correlation of similar experiences - these are more easily described as psychological based on culture, preconceptions or the way the drug works.

Unless we could confirm the source of such experiences in an objective fashion, it could not be analysed to show that the subject is experiencing this 'object' rather than a delusion with similarities.

Not to mention that if this is another dimension, it is one that seems to be far more subjective than this one - and perhaps somewhat distorted by drugs(!).

So discussion of serotonin receptors is very much irrelevant to the subject of this thread.

If you want my opinion, I would definitely propose that DMT allows higher sensitivity to other external "inputs" not associated with our conventional senses.

Last week I decided to send a healing to my wife whilst she was launching off. I really am not quite sure what happened by I saw her in her trip (not in the same way as she experienced it). I communicated with her as I could see she was confused as to who she was in my vision. "Remember who you are" I said whilst trying to get her attention.

When she came around she said "that was weird, a voice came in telling me to remember who I was and 'they' were annoyed about it ruining the lesson". She was actually a bit annoyed with me when I explained it was me.

Not sure the situation is easily repeatable, and besides I am on strict orders not to gate crash now.

 

[cave paintings]

Don't forget DMT also agonizes the sigma-receptor, regulating calcium fluxes into the cytosol/ER/mitochondria

 

[Jaurk]

Well none of these posts are really having a true go at the question.
Nevertheless, here's a DMT EEG.

BASELINE:

DMT

Comparison EEGs can be found here: https://www.reddit.com/user/drpsychedelic/submitted/

2500 hrtz is very very unusual.

8-30 is normal, while 400ug of LSD produced frequencies in the low 20s
​

RAW DATA: eeg raw data

 

[endlessness]

Regarding the reality of the DMT experience, please check out these three links, they have amazing discussions on this:

The improbability of hyperspace
The improbability of hyperspace part II
What is "real" and when is it useful to ask this ?



As far as DMT's pharmacodynamics (including 5-HT agonism), it has been explored both in vitro and in vivo with humans as well as animals (read attached paper here ) . There are still questions to answer, as there always are. It's fascinating

 

[ganesh]

People with high serotonin levels can be depressed and those with low levels can be happy.

The Serotonin levels things is questionable. Is the low-serotonin theory of depression wrong?

I always hear that DMT, like other classic psychedelics acts at serotonin receptor sites, which produces disruptions in the visual processing system, resulting in hallucinatory phenomena.

I often hear that psychedelics decondition the mind, thus removing the 'clutter' from 'what is', thereby giving one access to their 'true essence'. Ohh, i hate this serotonin receptor stuff, there is much study to do!

Interestingly, psilocybin (which is very similar to DMT), has been shown by brain imaging, to switch off overactive parts of the brain, and to improve mental health. http://reset.me/story/psilocybin-sw...ion-but-current-laws-interfere-with-research/

This leads me to believe that the older theories on treating depression may have been grossly misguided, and adds power to the 'deconditioning' theory that reveals ones 'true essence'.

 

[n0thing]

My hypothesis is that all molecules are already linked to higher dimensions just like 2d is 'linked' or a part of 3d reality. So the DMT molecule just needs to activate our already 4d or 5d matter and then provides the sensory information a bit like how string theory tells us that if you go deep in enough in to matter you will be able to access other dimensions of existence.

here watch this:

[youtube]

 

[dreamer042]

Well none of these posts are really having a true go at the question.
Nevertheless, here's a DMT EEG.

BASELINE:

DMT

Comparison EEGs can be found here: https://www.reddit.com/user/drpsychedelic/submitted/

2500 hrtz is very very unusual.

8-30 is normal, while 400ug of LSD produced frequencies in the low 20s
​

RAW DATA: eeg raw data

Can you provide moar information on the context of this data? Who did this research? Is there a diagram or any moar information available about electrode placement? What kind of cap was used? How many trials were run? What software was used to record and subsequently measure/clean up the data? Is that baseline information measured prior to DMT administration? Why are less channels shown in the DMT data than the baseline data?

This is interesting but not very useful without moar specific context. Am I just missing where the details are posted?

 

[a1pha]

Can you provide moar information on the context of this data? Who did this research? Is there a diagram or any moar information available about electrode placement? What kind of cap was used? How many trials were run? What software was used to record and subsequently measure/clean up the data? Is that baseline information measured prior to DMT administration? Why are less channels shown in the DMT data than the baseline data?

Researcher sounds like legit fellow with the means to test ($$ machines) and the brains but does not want to publish research on self-administered DMT. I don't blame him. The raw data is available. Interesting stuff.

its called replicate because i replicated my results 3 times to make sure it was not a calibration error. A "normal" human brain oscillates between 8-30 hrtz, while on DMT the frontal cortex reached over 2500 hrtz which was my nyquist frequency as my sample rate was only 5000/sec. This is only a picture of a segment of the actual data file because it requires a special program to run and use the equipment and the entire file is several million points.

Electrodes are placed in Fp1, Fp3, Fp7: Fp2, Fp4, Fp8. Frequency is calculated using band-pass filtering. I have tried to recreate these artifacts a number of different ways to make sure they were not a fluke but have been unable to generate them any other way. Furthermore, i have tested this three separate times and each time obtained similar results. I have recorded EEGs for Amphetamine, methylphenidate, LSD, DMT, 4-Aco-DMT, 4-Aco-DMT + LSD, DOC, 2c-t-2, and at one point i had one for MDMA but lost that data file. Theories: several ideas im playing with, i know a variety of techniques to analyze the data but i do not currently have the time

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