DMT lactate?

[Morphologist]

Hello Nexians,

I'm a new member of this very enlightening and also scientific community and since I'm a pharmaceutical science student I am very happy to share new ideas and learn from you guys.

Currently I'm into my second extraction using Cyb's tek combined with Boil n Base tek from T5001.(Thanks for the write up guys)

My first extraction wasn't too bad, but after freeze parcip my fluffy white crystals turned into yellow/gold goo which was still very active! So it just might have oxidized and appear somehow hygroscopic. Not a big problem if it's still that active but a more handy form of salt would be better. So as known acetate is a fluid/goo which is hygroscopic so is citrate and many other salts despite fumarate which isn't available for me. Tartrate is quite interesting since it can be dried with dry and warm air and ends up being a polymerlike substance which you can roll and form as you want. But as it gets cooler and being in contact with water in the air it turns hygroscopic. (still interesting since it is smokable and very soluble in many solvents even glycerin which makes it possible as nasal drops)

Now my actual question, is there any evidence for DMT crystalization with lactic acid forming the lactate salt?
Lactates have an excellent solubility in many solvents and they seem to be less toxic then many other salts.

Sorry for the long text but my first Topic shouldn't just consist of one question and a hi.

Morph

 

[pitubo]

You forgot to write what material you extracted.

The reason that your fluffy white crystals did not last long that way is not necessarily due to oxidation (and freebase dmt is not hygroscopic AFAIK). More likely is that your extract is not 100% pure dmt and contains various oils, waxes and/or nmt, all depending on source material and extraction technique. When a substance is not pure, but mixed with other substances, it can be subject to melting point depression.

Another possibility is that small amounts of solvent are still present in the material. In the freezer, dmt is very insoluble in it, but when it warms to room temperature, the tiny bits of solvent can be enough to melt (actually redissolve) some dmt, spoiling the nicely looking fluff.

In the latter case, it will recrystallize upon shedding the last bits of solvent. In the former case hardly so.

About the salt forms: oxalic, tartaric and fumaric acid in small amounts are not very toxic (remember, even table salt and water are toxic in certain amounts). Fumaric acid can be readily ordered on the internet - it is not a scheduled substance.

If you are curious about the lactate salts, why don't you try and report your results? That would be interesting in any case. BTW, given that lactic acid (a short-chain alpha-hydroxy acid) is hygroscopic itself, what makes you assume that the lactate salt of dmt will not be hygroscopic?

In any case, don't smoke dmt salts. The salts typically have a much higher boiling point and as a result the need for higher heat will cause excessive pyrolysis and degradation of the dmt. You can use the salts for storage or for oral ingestion (with maoi), but use freebase for smoking.

If your product is too melty to be weighed in small doses, dissolve a larger quantity that can be weighed in a measured amount of concentrated ethanol and measure out the dmt by drops. after the ethanol carrier solvent has evaporated, you can smoke the dmt residue. This works both with gvg, "the machine" and with infusing neutral herb smoked in a regular pipe or bong.

 

[Morphologist]

Thank you Pitubo.

Sorry for not mentioning the material, it was MHRB and will also be the material in my second extraction.

Alright, so it might be that my fluffy crystals came into contact with impurities since they had a quite strange behaviour. I wanted to scrape them, as soon as they came into cotnact with the metal of the blade they turned yellow, I could literaly watch them "melt" into goo in aboout 10 seconds. So might be best to Re-x and maybe even do a small A/B as a cleaning step.

I see your point about the hygroscopy with lactates. I was just wondering no one ever tried, but maybe because it just isn't as promissing.
I will try it depending on my yield and report back.
Lactates seem to have 200 times the solubility of the HCl salt and seem to work parenteral like a beauty which makes it perfect for nasale drops (Agharkar et al. 1976). And due to the organic counterion (lactate) the crystal lattice is dramaticaly reduced which is followed by a reduction of the melting point (Agharkar et al. 1984/ Creasey and Green 1959).
So since the tartrate was smokable with a freebase pipe i might try the lacte salt too and report back.

Morph

 

[concombres]

Thank you Pitubo.

Sorry for not mentioning the material, it was MHRB and will also be the material in my second extraction.

Alright, so it might be that my fluffy crystals came into contact with impurities since they had a quite strange behaviour. I wanted to scrape them, as soon as they came into cotnact with the metal of the blade they turned yellow, I could literaly watch them "melt" into goo in aboout 10 seconds. So might be best to Re-x and maybe even do a small A/B as a cleaning step.

I see your point about the hygroscopy with lactates. I was just wondering no one ever tried, but maybe because it just isn't as promissing.
I will try it depending on my yield and report back.
Lactates seem to have 200 times the solubility of the HCl salt and seem to work parenteral like a beauty which makes it perfect for nasale drops (Agharkar et al. 1976). And due to the organic counterion (lactate) the crystal lattice is dramaticaly reduced which is followed by a reduction of the melting point (Agharkar et al. 1984/ Creasey and Green 1959).
So since the tartrate was smokable with a freebase pipe i might try the lacte salt too and report back.

Morph

There is a thread here. If you Google freebasing acetates with heat, it should come up. A member here had some health problems smoking acetate salts, so I would tread carefully.

Also note that DMT fumarate is the most commonly used salt for one reason. It is crystalline. Most other salts are goos.

I have not seen any info regarding DMT lactate though so this may be unexplored territory, however, as pitubo mentioned, lactate salts seem to be hygroscopic which would prevent crystallization. I believe this may be what prevents other salts from crystallizing.

 

[Morphologist]

Thank you concombres for the warning, so i will proceed carefully.

I will try a small amount of DMT lactate since there's nothing around being mentioned just for curiousity and knowledge.

Thanks guys, and i will report back here if there are any new observations.

 

[Ufostrahlen]

Grüezi Morphologist, you've got an upvote from me. In the spirit of Albert Hofmann and Daniel Trachsel.

 

[concombres]

I`m interested in the nasal drops thing. If DMT lactate is more readily absorbed that way & does not have a strong burn like the freebase & other salts do you may be onto something.
IMO a few nasal drops would be MUCH easier than vaporizing & less finicky than oral dosage.

 

[PsyDuckmonkey]

Hey,

This sounds pretty interesting... Also, lactic acid is pretty easily obtainable. Currently the ROA I'm most curious about is using a nasal spray, given how it's super clean, super efficient, and doesn't involve recognizable drug paraphernalia.

A nasal pharmahuasca would be something like a holy grail...

So... could you do some tests with producing and nasally delivering DMT lactate? We're waiting eagerly. (BTW, just gave you another upvote. Keep up the good work!)

 

[Morphologist]

Grüezi Ufostrahlen thank you very much for the upvote and thanks to psyduckmonkey too!

Im happy to hear that you guys like the idea of the nasal drops. I had the same intention as concombres mentioned, somehow I have a feeling that the lactate isn't as agressive to the mucous membranes as other salts. And someone here already made a conclusion about a salt being dissolved in coconut oil/cream which reduced the burning sensation big times.

I will specificaly try it with DMT lactate dissolved in glycerine which I'm confident of that would be absorbed by the membranes pretty fast. But we will see soon when I'm testing it.
Also the possibility of taking the drops/spray with to wherever you want makes it wonderful for journeys. I mean nobody would suspect you having DMT in your nasal spray.
Would be awesome to go and have a journey in the swiss alps without any transport and consumption problems. :d

See you soon guys

 

[PsyDuckmonkey]

Yep... the only problem with a nasal spray is if a close relative with a stuffy nose decides to use your "salt water" spray and gets a frightening surprise in the shape of an unintended DMT breakthrough...

By the way, what route or tek would you consider appropriate to produce / isolate DMT lactate?

 

[Morphologist]

Oh yes that would be terrible. But that's the point why I'm using a safe at home for my stuff and if I go on a journey in a mini aluminum briefcase with a lock.

Well, I haven't looked for any tek. I simply extracted the freebase and saved the white crystals and put them in the freezer. the yellow/orange goo was scraped together and put in glas vial. From there on I added dropwise lactic acid solution (not much is needed), then I close it and shake it I always look that the solution is slightly warm and if a bigger quantity is transformed I also check the pH. Some of the yellow goo (impurities) won't dissolve and is extracted with benzinum (naphtha). The aqueous layer is separated with a matching syringe and air dried or with low temp in a drying chamber. I'm not sure about the boiling point of the lactate, I presume it's lower than most other salts but that's just a guess.

Pls correct me if anything os wrong or you have a better way.

 

[Morphologist]

So I finally had the possibility to convert the freebase to the lactate. First of all as pitubo and my research predictet, the crystal lattice of the lactate is not strong enough to crystalize solid. I could try it with the drying chamber but as I already thought the lactate is extremely soluble in water due to the lattice and so I presume that it boils at low temperatures too! Not as fast as the freebase but faster than most or maybe even all salts.

One thing is to mention, the lactate solution stinks pretty bad. Reminded me of puke! But when it's dryer the odor isn't that noticeable. Still im not lookin forward to try it nasaly since the tartrate burned for about 30 mins and even if the lactate burns less the smell of puke during the DMT journey won't be too nice!

I will try it with the drying chamber in the next days and try to freebase pipe it too.

See you

Ps: thr lactate form turns redish/pinkish

 

[Loveall]

I'm testing DMT lactate for e-juice vaping and have not noticed the vomit smell. I do agree that lactate solubility is good, especially for harmalas which are notoriously difficult to dissolve.