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DMT salts.
- Thread starter KloudQ7
- Start date
BongWizard
Hyperspace Cowboy
- Merits
- 42
DMT HCl is not a powder/crystal, it is an oil that does not solidify. The only solid DMT salts that I know of are fumarate and picrate. Search the forums/wiki for FASA, FASI or FASW for teks regarding fumarate preparation.
Hmm. What about this? I had i bunch of jars with crystals all over them. I dissolved some citric acid crystals into H2O and washed out all the jars. The solution turned yellowish. I wanted to base this to rescue any alkaloids, but i did not have the base at the time. So...
I placed the solution in the freezer to save for later.
I took it out a few days later, and placed it in a warm water bath to thaw.
When the solution was fully liquid i looked at the jar, the solution had become slightly clearer and there was a layer of powder on the bottom.
This was filtered and the solution placed back in the freezer.
The yellowish powder was set to dry.
Once the solution was frozen once more, it was thawed immediately at a slightly higher temperature.
Once again the solution cleared up a bit and there was a little less powder than before, but slightly whiter too.
I managed to do this about 7 times before there was no powder precipitating and the water had turned clear again (also the solution now tasted mostly like water, barely any DMT or citric acid flavor.
I came out with 2 different powders a coarse yellowish powder that i crushed up a bit finer after. And a fine pure white powder came out of the later pulls.
I placed the solution in the freezer to save for later.
I took it out a few days later, and placed it in a warm water bath to thaw.
When the solution was fully liquid i looked at the jar, the solution had become slightly clearer and there was a layer of powder on the bottom.
This was filtered and the solution placed back in the freezer.
The yellowish powder was set to dry.
Once the solution was frozen once more, it was thawed immediately at a slightly higher temperature.
Once again the solution cleared up a bit and there was a little less powder than before, but slightly whiter too.
I managed to do this about 7 times before there was no powder precipitating and the water had turned clear again (also the solution now tasted mostly like water, barely any DMT or citric acid flavor.
I came out with 2 different powders a coarse yellowish powder that i crushed up a bit finer after. And a fine pure white powder came out of the later pulls.
Attachments
I just ran out of citric acid and wanted to do the same thing with a bunch more, i got muriatic acid lying around for cleaning pools. But i guess it wouldn't work. Might not hurt to try with a little bit though so since the citrate shouldn't be solid either.
- Merits
- 117
Thanks for sharing the results!
So what Im wondering with your citric dmt jar is if a big part of that is citric acid, and maybe when there's excess citric acid DMT stays solid with it ... Or if it's really precipitated DMT citrate. You mentioned it was active, do you know how strong compared to pure DMT ?
So what Im wondering with your citric dmt jar is if a big part of that is citric acid, and maybe when there's excess citric acid DMT stays solid with it ... Or if it's really precipitated DMT citrate. You mentioned it was active, do you know how strong compared to pure DMT ?
- Merits
- 117
Well the other question is just how much DMT there is still in the solution that hasnt precipitated. You could base that solution, and maybe DMT will crash like the fumarate conversion in BLAB tek, or extract with non-polar if not. When you measure the results of that you will be able to have a better idea what went in and out in each step.
downwardsfromzero
Boundary condition
- Merits
- 42
Interesting, I've always thought DMT citrate should be a viable form of stable crystalline material.
This is clear evidence of a nicely crystallizable DMT citrate - well done , KloudQ7.
Repeating this experiment with carefully weighed quantities would yield definitive results. Citric acid is of course tribasic so it will be interesting to find out which of the stoichiometries this material is.
So, I just did a few calculations:
*tri-DMT citrate is 88.123% of the potency by weight of freebase DMT
*di-DMT citrate is 83.183% of the potency by weight of freebase DMT
*mono-DMT citrate is 71.208% of the potency by weight of freebase DMT
If you typically dose about 50 mg freebase then you probably have the mono-DMT citrate.
If you typically dose about 75 mg freebase then you probably have the di-DMT citrate.
If you typically dose about 100 mg freebase then you probably have the tri-DMT citrate.
This is clear evidence of a nicely crystallizable DMT citrate - well done , KloudQ7.
Repeating this experiment with carefully weighed quantities would yield definitive results. Citric acid is of course tribasic so it will be interesting to find out which of the stoichiometries this material is.
10-20 mg more than how much? This information would allow a reasonable deduction of which of the DMT citrates you have.KloudQ7 said:
So, I just did a few calculations:
*tri-DMT citrate is 88.123% of the potency by weight of freebase DMT
*di-DMT citrate is 83.183% of the potency by weight of freebase DMT
*mono-DMT citrate is 71.208% of the potency by weight of freebase DMT
If you typically dose about 50 mg freebase then you probably have the mono-DMT citrate.
If you typically dose about 75 mg freebase then you probably have the di-DMT citrate.
If you typically dose about 100 mg freebase then you probably have the tri-DMT citrate.
downwardsfromzero
Boundary condition
- Merits
- 42
I know this feeling only too well! There was probably a fair bit of goodies in there too, if the yellow stuff was more potentKloudQ7 said:
:thumb_dow
- Merits
- 42
While I do appreciate KloudQ7's enterprising and inquisitive efforts, in no way do I consider a happenstance result based on partial mishaps clear evidence of anything. A controlled and repeatable experiment is needed before any inferences could be made.downwardsfromzero said:
Is tri-dmt-citrate sterically likely at all? What about the salts, if all three even exist, do they form hydrates? That would influence the molecular weight also. Besides, personal assays don't mean a lot when the statistical n is low (such as 1).downwardsfromzero said:
downwardsfromzero
Boundary condition
- Merits
- 42
Edit:
.
Attempts at desiccation would give some answers.
I will look into replicating this happenstance result of partial mishap.
It was indeed somewhat uncontrolled but looks eminently repeatable.
Why do people insist "there are only two crystalline salts of DMT"? I don't believe there has been sufficient research to state that as definitive fact.
Reading between the lines a bit, this alleged DMT citrate should be soluble in acetone. (Look at FASA technique, where there's "a DMT extraction that doesn't require any lye or hydrocarbon solvents".)
While I'm at it, maybe I'll have a go at the ascorbate as well.
downwardsfromzero said:
I thought about the hydrates (Citric acid is typically available as the monohydrate), then completely forgot about them when it came to posting. Must have been the strain of doing the calculations
.Attempts at desiccation would give some answers.
I will look into replicating this happenstance result of partial mishap.
It was indeed somewhat uncontrolled but looks eminently repeatable.
Why do people insist "there are only two crystalline salts of DMT"? I don't believe there has been sufficient research to state that as definitive fact.
Let's just say, it's not completely impossible, is it? Just the salts with less DMT are considerably more likely for non-steric reasons as well.
Reading between the lines a bit, this alleged DMT citrate should be soluble in acetone. (Look at FASA technique, where there's "a DMT extraction that doesn't require any lye or hydrocarbon solvents".)
While I'm at it, maybe I'll have a go at the ascorbate as well.
One could theoretically dissolve oxalic acid into diethyl ether and follow similar steps to FASA, maybe crash out into heptane if needed.
IIRC
Gunk brand starter fluid is heptane/ether with no added oils, perhaps one could use this.
IIRC
Gunk brand starter fluid is heptane/ether with no added oils, perhaps one could use this.
BongWizard
Hyperspace Cowboy
- Merits
- 42
Good point 1ce. I forgot about the oxalate, but it is also a known, crystalline salt of DMT (used in early animal testing).
Who said that? There are several crystalline salts (even hydrochloride can be made solid [though it's resinous, not crystalline] using a vacuum dessicator packed with potassium hydroxide; as in Richard Manske's original synth), however there are few that are stable and practical to make.
downwardsfromzero said:
Who said that? There are several crystalline salts (even hydrochloride can be made solid [though it's resinous, not crystalline] using a vacuum dessicator packed with potassium hydroxide; as in Richard Manske's original synth), however there are few that are stable and practical to make.
Okay, this is off topic but maybe y'all can settle a point of curiosity for me, I ran across a sample a while back of 5MeoDMT. I don't have a picture, but it's consistency was crystalline though it was not freebase it was water-soluble, but it was very very fine so appeared to be almost "wet". It lumped together as I manipulated it, do any of y'all have an idea of what this would be would this be hydrochloride? It was an extremely clean sample obviously made with meticulous Laboratory techniques.
Sorry to hijack your thread guys, i've been curious about this for a while and this thread just piqued my interest again. Thanks.
Sorry to hijack your thread guys, i've been curious about this for a while and this thread just piqued my interest again. Thanks.
