Effect of smoke on kambo frog (Phyllomedusa)

[visionecura91]

Hello,
I'm not into Kambo, but there is something I've seen in this practice that really concerns me.

I saw people holding a big cigar very close to the frog; from the photos, it almost seems like they exhale smoke directly onto the frog.Isn't this very dangerous for the frog, which breathes through its skin and isn't tolerant to tobacco chemicals?Is there any traditional practice behind this, or is it just classic neo-shamanic abuse?

There is a Western "shaman" who does this openly and makes naive customers harvest the secretion themselves. From what I know, only expert natives are allowed to extract it, or am I wrong?

Again, I know very little about Kambo and frog biology, so I would like confirmation from experts here.

 

[modern]

I’d assume they do this to calm the frog similar to how it’s done with smoking bees before harvesting? Nicotine is outdated now.

Also many shamans tend to blow smoke onto plants and people as a means of purifications maybe that is the intent.

As far as I’m aware kambo doesn’t require stressing like Bufo and they just collect from the flesh and don’t squeeze a secretion but idk just spit balling possible ideas.

 

[northape]

It takes about 20 years to become an ayahuasquero, so what shamans are you talking about? Most of them are just playing the part to get fame and money.
Sure, the frog in question needs to be stressed. Its secretion is a protective mechanism to ward off predators. I've no idea about how traditional tobacco smoke, though.
In the end, you'd better be clear with yourself about what can be accepted or not for you. There's no right or wrong when it comes to different cultures.

Thread 'One of the best interviews on the plant medicine path that I've heard to date'

Sunday at 9:47 PM

This guy is who I'd call a true elder. He covers it all and much more - from what makes Amazonian culture unique to plant work and diets.
He drops chunks of wisdom like it's nothing. You can actually feel his authority on the matter and that it's his lived experience.
I feel it will enrich everyone's understanding of ayahuasca and what working with it implies. I can only bow to the guy.

• northape
• Replies: 0
• Forum: Ayahuasca

• 

Listen to the first hour. It'll shutter many illusions about Amazonian culture.

 

[visionecura91]

My concerns are 2, maybe i wasn't clear.

1) isn't it animal abuse to smoke very close to the frog or directly into considering that frogs breathe through their skin (unlike bees)?
2)Is there any evidence about this praticte in Matses or other amazonian cultures who traditionally use kambo?

I'm well aware that the 'noble savage' is just a myth, but from the little I know, Amazonian cultures have a deep respect for the frog.
I would like to know if this is an actual traditional practice or just some dumb New Age experimentation.

 

[The Sofa Traveler]

It takes about 20 years to become an ayahuasquero, so what shamans are you talking about? Most of them are just playing the part to get fame and money.
Sure, the frog in question needs to be stressed. Its secretion is a protective mechanism to ward off predators. I've no idea about how traditional tobacco smoke, though.
In the end, you'd better be clear with yourself about what can be accepted or not for you. There's no right or wrong when it comes to different cultures.

Thread 'One of the best interviews on the plant medicine path that I've heard to date'

Sunday at 9:47 PM

This guy is who I'd call a true elder. He covers it all and much more - from what makes Amazonian culture unique to plant work and diets.
He drops chunks of wisdom like it's nothing. You can actually feel his authority on the matter and that it's his lived experience.
I feel it will enrich everyone's understanding of ayahuasca and what working with it implies. I can only bow to the guy.

• northape
• Replies: 0
• Forum: Ayahuasca

• 

Listen to the first hour. It'll shutter many illusions about Amazonian culture.

It seems Takiwasi center and Mabit conduct ceremonies in a Western mixed with "traditional" approach through a Christian prism, where bad things that happen to someone, bad things that are seen in ceremonies, are interpreted as one being hacked by inside demons that can be cured by faith in catholic figures, an approach on which Takiwasi seem to focus. It's a rough summary, but the idea is there. One could be in line with this approach. Or not.
Actually, for some reasons, he is behind the moral panic that gripped France regarding ayahuasca in the early 00's, which lead to the 2005 ban of plants and analogues involved in ayahusaca brews (harmal included).
I just finished reading the book from French anthropologist David Dupuis, who spent time and had multiple ceremonies in Takiwasi as well as in other places. It was a very illuminating and interesting reading, both regarding the Takiwasi Christian approach and the specific case of France in regard to these forms of medicine, as well as general insights about ontology of visionary experiences one can have on ayahuasca. Dupuis also had ceremonies in Christian perspective free centers, notably the one held by the son of the man who taught shamanism to Jacques Mabit, where frightening aspects of ayahuasca that may occur are interpreted differently, in a more natural and "neutral" way, ceremonies which he seemed to prefer.
The book is more or less a synthesis from Dupuis' anthropologist doctoral thesis. Published in 2026, it's called : L'épreuve de l'invisible : carnets d'anthropologie psychédélique. Unfortunately, for the non-French readers, it doesn't seem to have been translated for now but I guess an e-book version can easily be translated online.

 

[northape]

My concerns are 2, maybe i wasn't clear.

1) isn't it animal abuse to smoke very close to the frog or directly into considering that frogs breathe through their skin (unlike bees)?
2)Is there any evidence about this praticte in Matses or other amazonian cultures who traditionally use kambo?

I'm well aware that the 'noble savage' is just a myth, but from the little I know, Amazonian cultures have a deep respect for the frog.
I would like to know if this is an actual traditional practice or just some dumb New Age experimentation.

Crucifying a frog and poking it could be considered animal abuse from our side, but it seems to be the tradition. Amazonian tribes do respect the animal and release it after the harvest, so maybe we shouldn't judge them. As mentioned above tobacco is used as an offering and purification ritual in the tradition, so it may very well be a part of it. I doubt that the frog would be damaged from smoke that much. Most likely it just stresses it more, but I'm no expert.

You can find kambo in many shops, but how it was harvested remains a mystery. You should make your own choice here. It became a money machine same as aya, so there is some malpractice present in the scene, I'd guess.

It seems Takiwasi center and Mabit conduct ceremonies in a Western mixed with "traditional" approach through a Christian prism, where bad things that happen to someone, bad things that are seen in ceremonies, are interpreted as one being hacked by inside demons that can be cured by faith in catholic figures, an approach on which Takiwasi seem to focus. It's a rough summary, but the idea is there. One could be in line with this approach. Or not.
Actually, for some reasons, he is behind the moral panic that gripped France regarding ayahuasca in the early 00's, which lead to the 2005 ban of plants and analogues involved in ayahusaca brews (harmal included).
I just finished reading the book from French anthropologist David Dupuis, who spent time and had multiple ceremonies in Takiwasi as well as in other places. It was a very illuminating and interesting reading, both regarding the Takiwasi Christian approach and the specific case of France in regard to these forms of medicine, as well as general insights about ontology of visionary experiences one can have on ayahuasca. Dupuis also had ceremonies in Christian perspective free centers, notably the one held by the son of the man who taught shamanism to Jacques Mabit, where interpretation of frightening aspects of ayahuasca that may occur are interpreted differently, in a more natural and "neutral" way, ceremonies which he seemed to prefer.
The book is more or less a synthesis from Dupuis' anthropologist doctoral thesis. Published in 2026, it's called : L'épreuve de l'invisible : carnets d'anthropologie psychédélique. Unfortunately, for the non-French readers, it doesn't seem to have been translated for now but I guess an e-book version can easily be translated online.

Thanks for that. I'm familiar with the man only through that recent interview. He covers a lot of topics, and his insights felt reasonable. I'm familiar with a Christian spin on Aya work and see it as one more approach. Myself, I never subscribe to any specific view beyond what I saw in my own practice. I take bits of wisdom if they fit, and that's it. He talks a lot about the difference between Amazonian and Western cosmologies in the first hour, and it sounds worthwhile to listen to. Beyond that, I'd need to test his ideas myself to know how true they are.

 

[The Sofa Traveler]

Thanks for that. I'm familiar with the man only through that recent interview. He covers a lot of topics, and his insights felt reasonable. I'm familiar with a Christian spin on Aya work and see it as one more approach. Myself, I never subscribe to any specific view beyond what I saw in my own practice. I take bits of wisdom if they fit, and that's it. He talks a lot about the difference between Amazonian and Western cosmologies in the first hour, and it sounds worthwhile to listen to. Beyond that, I'd need to test his ideas myself to know how true they are.

Don't get me wrong, it's not a criticism of Jacques Mabit, just some insight about the Takiwasi center ceremonies and its Christian/catholic approach. I think he is a great man but I also must confess (haha) I wouldn't feel much in line with such an approach although I understand that others can be.

 

[northape]

Don't get me wrong, it's not a criticism of Jacques Mabit, just some insight about the Takiwasi center ceremonies and its Christian/catholic approach. I think he is a great man but I also must confess (haha) I wouldn't feel much in line with such an approach although I understand that others can be.

At this point I'm fine with any modality, because it translates to my own inside anyway. I just wanted to clarify that my familiarity with the man is limited.
France has a foothold in SA (French Guiana), so I guess there is a lot of influence even if the English-speaking world knows nothing about it. I've found the book on Z-Library.
We'll see if I can translate it somehow. Cheers

 

[visionecura91]

Crucifying a frog and poking it could be considered animal abuse from our side, but it seems to be the tradition.

Are you sure? That same image was in an article about frog abuse and new age approaches. I known it gets tied to extract the drug, but that poke in the nose seem just cruel and unnecessary. I was told you just need to gently tap the back of the frog with a stick while it's tied down (and that only expert natives are allowed to do it).

I doubt that the frog would be damaged from smoke that much.

Also the smoke it's extremely dangerous for amphibians, they undergo cutaneous respiration and carry out osmotic and gas exchanges through their skin. The nicotine and tobacco tars condensed on the frog's moist skin penetrate directly into the bloodstream.

 

[northape]

Are you sure? That same image was in an article about frog abuse and new age approaches. I known it gets tied to extract the drug, but that poke in the nose seem just cruel and unnecessary. I was told you just need to gently tap the back of the frog with a stick while it's tied down (and that only expert natives are allowed to do it).

At least that's what I saw in one YT video. You can do your own research, but once again, you never know how it was done if you were not present. Here's one example:

Also the smoke it's extremely dangerous for amphibians, they undergo cutaneous respiration and carry out osmotic and gas exchanges through their skin. The nicotine and tobacco tars condensed on the frog's moist skin penetrate directly into the bloodstream.

I can't answer this question. As a mapacho smoker, I know that you need to cheek smoke for a while to get the effects. Maybe frogs are more sensitive, maybe not.
If it's just a small puff on the frog, I doubt that it would do more than stress it. Honestly, I've never seen anyone use tobacco that way. You would use rapé snuff after the session, but that's it.