Ekstaza's Tek & Water

[digglover]

I have performed 69ron's mescaline Tek 3 times and have had pretty mediocre results so far. Very poor yields have been the main problem (Less than 0.5%). Also the yields I have had have been hit and miss (sometimes working, sometimes not). I have still not had a strong mescaline dose - I have had some nice low doses though - Very healing.

So I figured either the problem was me performing the tek wrong, or I have low potency product.
My plan was to perform a different tek and in this way, I could figure out if it is my cactus or me. (I had no problem performing DMT STB teks so I have a feeling my methods are solid).

I was going to perform Ekstaza's Tek located at this link. I believe its a fairly well known tek.

http://www.dumah.net/https/exmes/index.html

My question is regarding how much sodium hydroxide solution I should use?
69ron's mescaline tek is a STB and he recommends as little water as neccesary to increase yields. As far as I can tell, this is because mescaline is moderately soluble in water and it holds onto the mescaline not allowing it to move to your solvent.

Use an STB. Don't give the mescaline any water to be attracted to and you'll get better yields with far less pulls. If there’s water present, the mescaline will be reluctant to leave the water and only a small percentage of it will leave for each non-polar solvent pull. If there’s no water, then the mescaline has no where to go but the non-polar solvent, so you get better yields.

- 69ron The Mescaline Extraction Thread - Preparation - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

Reading some comments on shroomery regarding this tek though, they say that if I don't use enough water yields will be low.

Exstaza tek and yield - The Ethnobotanical Garden - Shroomery Message Board

G'day gentlemen and in particular Mr Ekstaza. Ok, down to buisness. Thanks a million for the mescaline tek. AFOAF said it worked like a dream. His only problem is YIELD...maybe his source of powdered

www.shroomery.org

Ok, down to buisness. Thanks a million for the mescaline tek. AFOAF said it worked like a dream. His only problem is YIELD...maybe his source of powdered torch is bunk but after doing the extraction on 250g he got about half a 00 capsule full of powder. Which is around 500mg maximum. Not as much as he was expecting.
One thing he remembers is not using 1.5 gallons for the 500g of cactus. Just enough to make it stirrable. Perhaps that's the key.

If you didn't use enough water, it's possible that you didn't get all of the alkaloids out of the cactus material. If you think about it, only so much mescaline can be dissolved in a given amount of water. You want to use enough to dissolve all possible mescaline.

What does everyone think? More or less water?
On the one hand, 69ron seems to know his stuff regarding mescaline extraction. On the other hand, Ekstaza's tek is pretty well spoken of and no one seems to worry about it being "dry"...

 

[Vularin]

Hey Digglover,

I like that tek, i might try it myself.

I think the best thing you could do is make a tea first from fresh cacti (just simmer chunks of cacti, this prevent the snot from comming out) or use calcium hydroxide first (like in 69ron's tek) with powder.

Problem with cacti is the that once it turn to snot its bascily useless... it takes about a days simmer to destroy the snot.

Unfortunatly cacti teks always seem to be plaqued by no proper measurements (not like dmt teks or 69rons d-limo cacti tek)

It would be interesting to see a proper tek here on the nexus (that doesnt use d-limo)

Ill post my finding here aswell!

V

 

[digglover]

Hey Digglover,

I like that tek, i might try it myself.

I think the best thing you could do is make a tea first from fresh cacti (just simmer chunks of cacti, this prevent the snot from comming out) or use calcium hydroxide first (like in 69ron's tek) with powder.

Problem with cacti is the that once it turn to snot its bascily useless... it takes about a days simmer to destroy the snot.

Unfortunatly cacti teks always seem to be plaqued by no proper measurements (not like dmt teks or 69rons d-limo cacti tek)

It would be interesting to see a proper tek here on the nexus (that doesnt use d-limo)

Ill post my finding here aswell!

V

Making a tea first would essentially turn it into an A/B right? I've heard reports that it takes 10 or 15 pulls to get your alkaloids out then... A bit much for me.

Using the Calcium Hydroxide would be to break down the mucilage (sp)? What if I mixed Calcium Hydroxide and Sodium Hydroxide?
Would I get the muscilage to break down and a very high pH? In my head, mixing the two would leave Calcium ions and Sodium ions in the cactus solution, which doesn't seem problematic to me?


It looks like in the pictures, around 1/2 a gallon is used per 100g (quite a bit of water). The dude on shroomery mentioned he should've used 1.5 gallons on 500g. Well, I will experiment. I don't have much to lose as I couldn't get 69ron's tek working for me.

I'm thinking I'll do 2 batches. One with calcium hydroxide and limited water, as per 69ron's limo tek. And one with Sodium hydroxide and quite an excess of water.

 

[narmz]

Why not just use Sodium Hydroxide? You could probably get away with something pretty similar to a STB for mimosa. Just basify, float some solvent on the top, flip end over end, and decant the solvent - salt out to whatever salt you wish.

That's what SWIM would try - given his experiences with lime in the past

 

[digglover]

Why not just use Sodium Hydroxide? You could probably get away with something pretty similar to a STB for mimosa. Just basify, float some solvent on the top, flip end over end, and decant the solvent - salt out to whatever salt you wish.

That's what SWIM would try - given his experiences with lime in the past

What have been your experiences with lime?

I believe this is what Ekstaza's Tek is. A STB with NaOH, a pull with xylene, and then salting out the mescaline.
Really, the fundamental difference between Ekstaza's tek and 69ron's is the amount of water.

What I'm wondering is if the Calcium Hydroxide somehow breaks down the muscilage any better than sodium hydroxide. I'm not entirely sure what is responsible for the breaking down of the mucilage. If it is just the pH, then sodium hydroxide would probably work even better. I'm not entirely sure though.

Topic on STB Extraction: I'm looking for a detailed writeup for STB mescaline extraction with xylene/HCl - Preparation - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus
It seems to contain conflicting ideas.

Topic on Calcium Hydroxide Breaking down mucilage: 69ron Non-tox Mescal tek - waiting before adding d-limo? - FAQ - All your basic questions and answers - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

Theirs not enough information on cacti extraction!



Touche Guevara pointed me to this post by 69ron

The initial extraction is a straight to base (STB) extraction except that the amount of water used is extremely small so there's essentially no water layer to separate and not enough water present to hold any freebase mescaline. That's important. That's one of the main reasons why this tech gives really good results for mescaline. Freebase mescaline is water soluble so in order to better make it go into the non-polar solvent, we make sure there's no water to hold on to it.

The other reason this tech is so high yielding is because calcium hydroxide destroys the mucilage. The cactus has horribly slimy mucilage which helps prevent the extraction of mescaline. The mucilage acts like glue preventing the solvents from getting to the mescaline. Because the calcium hydroxide reacts with and breaks down the mucilage, the base and non-polar solvent are both allowed better access to the mescaline.

The fourth reason this tech is so high yielding is because d-limonene just happens to extract freebase mescaline really well. Much better than xylene can and unlike DCM or chloroform, it doesn't extract a lot of other junk along with the mescaline.

This tech will outperform a standard wet STB based on sodium hydroxide and xylene, and will also far outperform a standard A/B extraction for the reasons outlined above.

Hmmm... I will update the thread soon on what I end up doing, and what my results are.

 

[Recycled_Solvent]

Monograph Number: 5932
Title: Mescaline
CAS Registry Number: 54-04-6
CAS Name: 3,4,5-Trimethoxybenzeneethanamine
Additional Names: 3,4,5-trimethoxyphenethylamine; mezcaline
Molecular Formula: C11H17NO3
Molecular Weight: 211.26.
Percent Composition: C 62.54%, H 8.11%, N 6.63%, O 22.72%
Literature References: Psychotomimetic alkaloid isolated from peyote (mescal buttons), the flowering heads of Lophophora williamsii (Lemaire) Coult., Cactaceae. Isoln: A. Heffter, Ber. 29, 221 (1896). Structure and synthesis: E. Späth, Monatsh. 40, 129 (1919); K. H. Slotta, H. Heller, Ber. 63, 3029 (1930); E. Späth, F. Becke, Monatsh. 66, 327 (1935); M. U. Tsao, J. Am. Chem. Soc. 73, 5495 (1951); K. Banholzer et al., Helv. Chim. Acta 35, 1577 (1952). Novel synthesis: M. N. Aboul-Enein, A. I. Eid, Acta Pharm. Suec. 16, 267 (1979). MS determn: S. P. Jindal, T. Lutz, Eur. J. Mass Spectrom. Biochem. Med. Environ. Res. 2, 117 (1982). Pharmacokinetics in rabbits: C. Van Peteghem et al., Eur. J. Drug Metab. Pharmacokinet. 7, 1 (1982). Mode of action study: M. E. Trulson et al., Eur. J. Pharmacol. 96, 151 (1983). Use in evaluating serotonin S2 antagonists: C. J. E. Niemegeers et al., Drug Dev. Res. 3, 123 (1983). Evaluation of use with chlorpromazine, q.v., in various psychoses: H. C. B. Denber, S. Merlis: J. Nerv. Ment. Dis. 122, 463 (1955). Toxicity data: L. B. Speck, J. Pharmacol. Exp. Ther. 119, 78 (1957); H. F. Hardman et al., Toxicol. Appl. Pharmacol. 25, 299 (1973). Reviews: A. R. Patel, Progress in Drug Research vol. 11, E. Jucker, Ed. (Birkhaüser Verlag, Basel, 1968) pp 11-47; G. J. Kapadia, M. B. E. Fayez, J. Pharm. Sci. 59, 1699-1727 (1970).
Properties: Crystals, mp 35-36°. bp12 180°. Moderately sol in water; sol in alcohol, chloroform, benzene. Practically insol in ether, petr ether. Takes up CO2 from the air and forms a crystalline carbonate. LD50 i.p. in rats: 370 mg/kg (Speck).
Melting point: mp 35-36°
Boiling point: bp12 180°
Toxicity data: LD50 i.p. in rats: 370 mg/kg (Speck)

Derivative Type: Hydrochloride
Molecular Formula: C11H17NO3.HCl
Molecular Weight: 247.72.
Percent Composition: C 53.33%, H 7.32%, N 5.65%, O 19.38%, Cl 14.31%
Properties: Needles, mp 181°. Sol in water, alcohol. LD50 in mice, rats, guinea pigs (mg/kg): 212, 132, 328 i.p. (Hardman).
Melting point: mp 181°
Toxicity data: LD50 in mice, rats, guinea pigs (mg/kg): 212, 132, 328 i.p. (Hardman)

Derivative Type: Sulfate dihydrate
Molecular Formula: (C11H17NO3)2.H2SO4.2H2O
Molecular Weight: 556.63.
Percent Composition: C 47.47%, H 7.24%, N 5.03%, O 34.49%, S 5.76%
Properties: Prisms, mp 183-186°. Sol in hot water, methanol; sparingly sol in cold water, ethanol.
Melting point: mp 183-186°

Derivative Type: Acid sulfate
Molecular Formula: C11H17NO3.H2SO4
Molecular Weight: 309.34.
Percent Composition: C 42.71%, H 6.19%, N 4.53%, O 36.20%, S 10.37%
Properties: Crystals, mp 158°.
Melting point: mp 158°

Derivative Type: N-Benzoylmescaline
Properties: Needles from aq alc, mp 121°. Very sol in alcohol, ether.
Melting point: mp 121°

Derivative Type: N-Methylmescaline
Properties: Occurs naturally, bp 130-140°.
Boiling point: bp 130-140°

Derivative Type: N-Acetylmescaline
Properties: Occurs naturally, mp 94°.
Melting point: mp 94°

NOTE: This is a controlled substance (hallucinogen): 21 CFR, 1308.11.

 

[ouro]

The advantages of lye: More corrosive (breaks down cacti material freeing more goodies) and pushes the ph higher (helps push more goodies from the aq. phase into the NP when you pull). The disadvantages are that it is slightly harder to get ahold of for some people, and slightly more dangerous. "Food safe" lye is hard to get ahold of if that concerns you.

calcium hydroxide is much less soluble in water than lye, which can means it will not break down the mucilage as well and it will potentially make a gooey mess that traps NP if you arent careful. lime works ime.

Once you understand the basic principals (free actives from plant material, basify to push into NP, then salt out of NP with acid) any reagents that accomplish these functions will work. Ammonia could potentially work to basify, soda carb could potentially work... there are lots of options but they dont work as well as lye.

"foodsafe" lye water recipe: mix foodsafe lime and foodsafe sodium carbonate (baking soda in the oven @400f for 2 hours) slowly into water. Decant the lye water from the calcium carbonate precip. Ca(OH)2 (aq) + Na2CO3 (aq) -> 2NaOH (aq) + CaCO3 (precip)

EDIT oh yeah, to the OP... my advice: if you think you used too much water, use less next time use the ol' "scientific method" and reduce the unknowns with experimentation till you know what caused your bad yields, or at least what you need to do to get satisfactory yields. If it was too much water you could evap/boil some off or just keep pulling. and mesc FB is quite water soluble according to reliable sources (merk, lots of peoples experience).