Endogenous DMT using nutrients. Testable science. Should be studied.

[Sabnock1990]

As for dosages, imo, try 25mgs of P5P B6, 10mgs of Methylcobalamin B12, 500mgs of Tryptophan, an hour into a dose of Harmalas (dosage typical of that for oral DMT activation).

If it doesn't work, lmk, we'll figure it out together

 

[Transform]

It's simple. Take the P5P form of vitamin B6, the Methylcobalamin form of vitamin B12, and Tryptophan, together/at the same time, an hour into Harmalas/MAO-A inhibition = Endogenous Tryptamine/NMT/DMT. You're welcome (for those who can't be bothered to read a little bit about something as interesting as endogenous Dimethyltryptamine lol).

It works, and if people can't figure it out, then i guess oh well since they apparently can't be bothered to read enough to understand how it works.

Who cares about understanding? I JUST WANNA GET HIGH, GODDAMMIT!! /jk


Dou you think that supplementation with something like choline or betaine might also help to bump up the methylation levels? I saw that you mentioned the betaine methylase enzyme that once, without going into too much detail.

Moreover, it sets me thinking that a thorough mapping of all the interlocking mechanisms including up- and downregulation of relevant areas of gene expression would help in further refining this method. There's a chance that simply chucking in 'all the right ingiredients' might not work for some people.

How consistent and ubiquitous is the expression of these methylase systems? Are there further supplements that might be useful in reliably inducing enhanced methylation?

 

[Sabnock1990]

Supplementing with/dietarily consuming Choline/Betaine/Trimethylglycine should/could be helpful imo because it should take some of the burden off of B12/Folate for the recycling of Homocysteine back into Methionine, but i as far as i know the BHMT enzyme is mainly more in the liver, i've gotten some conflicting info on if there's BHMT in the brain, most things say it's in the liver, some things have said it could also be to some extent in the brain, however the Methionine Synthase enzyme (which uses B12/Folate) is available in both brain and liver, and is said to be the dominant source of Homocysteine recycling, but theoretically, BHMT activity should help imo. I haven't yet ventured into BHMT as deeply as i have with Methionine Synthase, but imo the more the merrier.

And that's a good point to make about the potential effects of epigenetic expression and up-regulation or down-regulation of certain enzymes and processes. I know i've read that SAM/methylation can lead to an increased expression in Tryptophan Hydroxylase activity which converts Tryptophan into 5-HTP, so it could potentially up-regulate other enzymes involved in Tryptophan's metabolic pathways, potentially including INMT expression which could increase the methylation of Tryptamine into NMT/DMT. So that's definitely worth taking into consideration as well, especially over the long term (potentially if one is inhibiting MAO-A more regularly enough that would tell the system "we need more INMT to process Tryptamine for methylation", could definitely add to it imo). And i know some people may have some genetic predispositions or SNP's for certain enzymes which too may influence the results, and so some forms of things may be better suited for some folks than other forms, but i figure if you just go for the active forms to begin with, less guesswork.

I think for the most part, so long as one has enough SAM for methylation (especially in the brain), and has enough B6 to force Tryptophan's decarboxylation into Tryptamine, and has enough MAO-A inhibition (as well as proper timing between inhibiting gut MAO-A and consuming the Tryptophan), it should work. I don't think it's much of a complex process, it seems pretty simple both experientially so far and as far as understanding how the process works, it's only a few easy steps and one should see results, imo.

AADC/DOPA Decarboxylase and Methionine Synthase are pretty significantly expressed in Humans, they're basically how we get our neurotransmitters and methylation and are basic to Human physiology, so it's pretty necessary for bodily function, they're not small enzymes like DHFR for example (which in Humans is rather limited, thus is one reason Folic Acid can cause issues for us since it relies on DHFR to be metabolized into Folate's the body uses), they're used on a daily basis by the body, AADC/DOPA Decarboxylase mainly decarboxylates 5-HTP and L-Dopa into Serotonin and Dopamine, and Methionine Synthase is the main enzyme needed to recycle Homocysteine back into Methionine to keep the SAM cycle going, so they're pretty important to everyday function, but it seems to me that a main issue today is that our Methionine Synthase enzyme is under-functional due to lack of B12, imo.

Also for the record, i care about understanding lol, i'm convinced i'm playing my part in helping to reverse engineer the Human body, figure out how this thing works lol. (getting "high" is just a bonus lol).

 

[Sabnock1990]

As for other supplements, basically just anything that would help ensure proper activity of enzymes involved, Folate is a big one, and things like Riboflavin, Niacin, Potassium, Magnesium, Zinc, Copper, Iron, potentially Selenium, vitamin B5, still unsure about Thiamine but it's probably in there somewhere lol, vitamin C, vitamin A, vitamin D, basically imo cover all the bases, all these nutrients and some others are involved to some degree whether directly or indirectly along the metabolic chains for proper enzymatic functioning. Not that they're needed in the endogenous Tryptamine mix, but worth making sure of overall to make sure things are functioning as they should. You would be surprised at how nutrients all work together at different steps along the way for the overall functioning of the whole. Different co-factors are needed by different enzymes to function properly, if an enzyme doesn't have what it needs then it can't function. So i'd just look at all the enzymes involved and figure out any of the co-factors that it may need and just make sure of that and one should do alright imo.

 

[Sabnock1990]

Also, i've taken Methylcobalamin B12 a lot so far, in varying dosages, and 10mgs a day works wonders, especially taken all at once, but i think even 5mgs twice a day is rather nice. For me personally, 10mgs is where i see benefits, in general (aside from the Tryptamine methylation), so i think i tend to recommend 10mgs of Methylcobalamin, it works nicely, haven't had much in the way of side-effects from B12, contrarily i've had quite a few side-effects from too much Folate, but more B12 seems to help. So when it comes to B12 in general, and for this Tryptamine thing, i'd say try 10mgs, it works well for me, anything less generally doesn't seem to work as well for what i'm taking it for, and so it's worth considering that higher B12 dosages may be worth exploring for endogenous Tryptamine methylation.

 

[Transform]

Ofc, the other fun thing about methylation is that it's one of the main forms of epigenetic marking, which in turn does various things regarding gene expression. Is this something you'd also be taking into account?

I'd need to look into the specifics of enzymatic DNA methylation to check for instances of overlap with the small-molecule systems being discussed here.

Speculatively, increasing the activity of the tryptamine methylation system might conceivably lead to a more rapid response to factors which in turn lead to epigenetic control of enzyme- and other protein synthesis. Interesting, also, to think that this could be perceived as a kind of active evolutionary tool…

 

[Sabnock1990]

Ofc, the other fun thing about methylation is that it's one of the main forms of epigenetic marking, which in turn does various things regarding gene expression. Is this something you'd also be taking into account?

I'd need to look into the specifics of enzymatic DNA methylation to check for instances of overlap with the small-molecule systems being discussed here.

Speculatively, increasing the activity of the tryptamine methylation system might conceivably lead to a more rapid response to factors which in turn lead to epigenetic control of enzyme- and other protein synthesis. Interesting, also, to think that this could be perceived as a kind of active evolutionary tool…

As far as epigenetics go, it's something i've wondered about as well, and if it's involved somehow it could perhaps have some benefits (reinforcing INMT for example, or some other enzyme involved in the metabolic processes), technically low methylation could definitely dampen methyltransferases (for example Melatonin has been reported to be low in Autism, and i have definitely noticed an increase in natural Melatonin synthesis mainly due to B12 (Homocysteine to Methionine and thus SAM synthesis), but B5 also plays a role (for acetylation), it's definitely Melatonin, so clearly my methyltransferases have improved, as i imagine INMT activity can also improve, and so simply by supplying SAM itself probably has the main benefits, but increasing expression of INMT or other enzymes could reinforce that and "open up the highways" so to speak, or, it could down-regulate/knock down the INMT enzyme. It seems to me from what i've read that most of these things are supposedly self-regulating based on feedback loops, and that excess SAM may actually knock down INMT, but that hasn't been my experience, my experience says more B12 = greater SAM which so far seems promising. And with feedback loops happening, epigentic modification could signal an increase in activity, or the reverse, but so far the former is what aligns with my personal experience whether that's just the SAM/methylation, or epigenetics. I will probably end up doing a deep dive on epigenetics and methylation impacts and all that to learn more at some point though.

And yeah, active evolutionary tool indeed. I get the impression that this whole thing is doable at least to some extent, how far it may go? i hope to find out, in time lol. Imo it also has implications for potential synthesis of 5-MEO-DMT and Bufotenin as well, also 5-Methoxytryptamine, perhaps even 5-Hydroxy/Methoxy-N-Methyltryptamine (5-Hydroxy/Methoxy-NMT), and also aren't supposed endogenous Tryptolines like Pinoline also supposed to come from Tryptophan? It makes me wonder what would happen if one's MAO-A enzyme was low-functioning (or knocked out irreversibly) and consuming a diet heavy in Tryptophan (or just pure Tryptophan) so that the Tryptamine/NMT/DMT can become systemically active due to MAO-A's lack of functionality, which could allow for the buildup of these "trace" amines, allowing them to take greater and greater effect which could then spill over to other enzymes that process those metabolites into other compounds, so like DMT maybe going through Tryptophan Hydroxylase to become 5-Hydroxy-DMT (Bufotenin) or going through Acetylserotonin O-methyltransferase (ASMT) to become 5-Methoxy-DMT, especially 5-MEO could be more effective with greater SAM levels.

Seriously, if anyone out there has access to an irreversible preferably selective for MAO-A inhibitor, like maybe Clorgiline for example, they should seriously take one for the team and give it a go with this method (Tryptophan+P5P B6+Methylcobalamin B12), see what may happen lol, or heck send me some and i'll try it myself lol. I think the only irreversible MAOI's i could maybe get ahold of via a doctor would be like Phenelzine or Isocarboxazid, maybe Tranylcypromine, but those also have MAO-B inhibition which i'm not wanting, so if one has an irreversible MAO-A inhibitor it would be an interesting thing to check out.

 

[Sabnock1990]

Also, imo it would be something worth thinking about as far as meditative or yogic practices go, like if you inhibit MAO-A and take Tryptophan+P5P B6+Methylcobalamin B12, and then do whatever practice, if you could maybe more easily induce endogenous synthesis, maybe increase it by breathing exercises for example. It seems to me, ime, taking the Tryptophan and B's with MAO-A inhibited already gives noticeable Tryptamine/NMT/DMT synthesis, so that's a given, but if it can be increased with breathwork, it's worth trying out imo.

 

[plumsmooth]

What about incorporation of Extra Darkness i.e. Darkness Retreat protocol etc..??

 

[Sabnock1990]

What about incorporation of Extra Darkness i.e. Darkness Retreat protocol etc..??

That could maybe contribute, similar to breathwork, could maybe help to induce a greater amount. Using Tryptophan+the B6+B12 (with or without Methylfolate) seems to induce endogenous Tryptamine/NMT/DMT synthesis on demand, but using darkness or breathwork could perhaps add to that and cause greater synthesis. It's certainly worthy of testing out imo.

 

[feeeeelio]

Can someone please summarize the point here? Reading this is making me feel like I'm losing it.

 

[Sabnock1990]

Can someone please summarize the point here? Reading this is making me feel like I'm losing it.

The point is that you can experience endogenous Tryptamine/NMT/DMT synthesis by inhibiting MAO-A and taking some Tryptophan together with some active vitamin B6 and active vitamin B12, which i think is fascinating and really interesting.

 

[feeeeelio]

The point is that you can experience endogenous Tryptamine/NMT/DMT synthesis by inhibiting MAO-A and taking some Tryptophan together with some active vitamin B6 and active vitamin B12, which i think is fascinating and really interesting.

What does this actually mean in practical terms though? Eat tryptophan with vitamins and trip?

 

[Sabnock1990]

What does this actually mean in practical terms though? Eat tryptophan with vitamins and trip?

Pretty much, yes. Though it still remains to be determined how much endogenous DMT we can synthesize on demand like this, but so far ime it's at the least very noticeable. It's honestly up there with the level of effects i get from exogenous DMT but not fully immersive, but definitely trip-like effects for sure. And it can be full bodied (when things are activated in the gut) or it can be purely cerebral (if the Tryptophan is taken without B6).

It's experimental, and shows that we can synthesize a good bit of endogenous Tryptamines, and if we can fully figure this out, there may not be a limit as to how much we could produce endogenously, which then means people could basically have these experiences purely legally and endogenously and wouldn't need DMT-containing plants.

As Terence McKenna said, "I don't know what news you were waiting for, but this is the news that i was waiting for" lol.

I just think it's cool that we can induce endogenous synthesis of this stuff, i mean DMT is kick ass, and some people are even still on the fence as to if it's for sure an endogenously produced compound, and this proves it is endogenously produced, the only question now is how much can we produce like this? I would answer that question myself but i'm currently not wanting to trip so my experimentation is put on hold for the time being so i put this here for others to try and experiment around with. Also it made me wonder about how when they're testing for endogenous DMT they should try to factor in things like vitamin deficiencies or low Tryptophan which could explain lower levels of DMT compared to what it could be, perhaps. Granted this does include MAO-A inhibition so that the DMT isn't immediately broken down, but, making sure of one's B vitamin levels and SAM to SAH ratio and Tryptophan status might be able to influence the natural levels of endogenous Tryptamines even without MAO-A inhibition, who knows.

In practical terms though, one could use this to get some of the same benefits and medicinal relief and such that DMT can bring, and can do so legally lol. Even though i'm sure no one here really cares about legality at this point but it is cool that this can be done with just a couple B vitamins and some Tryptophan on top of MAO-A inhibition, and i'm not sure why people haven't tested this out before, i mean if you study how SAM and methylation works and that Tryptophan is the precursor to Tryptamine and Tryptamine to NMT/DMT, surely somebody other than me has thought about this before lol.

 

[Transform]

The point is that you can experience endogenous Tryptamine/NMT/DMT synthesis by inhibiting MAO-A and taking some Tryptophan together with some active vitamin B6 and active vitamin B12, which i think is fascinating and really interesting.

This does rather make me wonder how much the normal dietary variation in these nutrients contributes to the wide range of possible effects from essentially identical doses of rue tea on separate occasions. Applying this method might plausibly be called "nutrihuasca", or something like that.

 

[feeeeelio]

Has anyone else done this vitamin trip successfully? If so please post up. I would spend the $40 on the amazon shopping cart myself but I'd rather buy actual drǔhges. Yes Transform, I want to get high and not fick around!

I hope this is real and awesome. No offense Sabnock, your posts read like you're having an obsessive episode (too much drugs! jk) and it makes me wonder if your experience is psychosomatic. Also as transistorbass said why not make an actual amazon shopping list and post that shi. Tek it out bro

Funnily, before I ever did acid I wondered if it was some sort of light experience where you wouldn't really quite be able to tell if you were high or not. "Can you feel it bro? I dunno!"

Then I took it. I could tell lol

 

[Sabnock1990]

Has anyone else done this vitamin trip successfully? If so please post up. I would spend the $40 on the amazon shopping cart myself but I'd rather buy actual drǔhges. Yes Transform, I want to get high and not fick around!

I hope this is real and awesome. No offense Sabnock, your posts read like you're having an obsessive episode (too much drugs! jk) and it makes me wonder if your experience is psychosomatic. Also as transistorbass said why not make an actual amazon shopping list and post that shi. Tek it out bro

Funnily, before I ever did acid I wondered if it was some sort of light experience where you wouldn't really quite be able to tell if you were high or not. "Can you feel it bro? I dunno!"

Then I took it. I could tell lol

It's just how i am man, i find something interesting, i learn everything i can about it, i repeat it ad nauseam lol. I'm Autistic or have been Autistic and so i've been that way about everything i find interesting, it comes with the territory lol, they don't call us little professors for nothing lol. I've done it when i learned about Cannabis, then Aya, then mysticism and spirituality, now nutrition and health stuff, lets just say i'm pretty good at what i do. So, psychosomatic? Hell naw lol, anything i'm likely to say on most subjects one can see for themselves through personal testing and some research about how things work in the body.

It definitely does work, but it depends on proper B12, proper B6, possibly some Methylfolate, some Tryptophan, and proper gut MAO-A inhibition. The main thing is you want to make sure you're not deficient in the B's or in Tryptophan, or other nutrients which are utilized by metabolic enzymes, like Potassium and Magnesium for example when it comes to Methionine Adenosyltransferase, or Zinc or possibly Copper when it comes to Methionine Synthase, or Magnesium or Niacin or Riboflavin for some of the Folate-related metabolic enzymes, as well as Niacin and Riboflavin (and SAM) for Methionine Synthase Reductase.

If everything is done right, then basically you just take some Harmalas to inhibit gut MAO-A, when gut MAO-A is at it's peak inhibition (which consistently for me is an hour into the Harmalas, but can vary depending on one's CYP2D6 status which metabolizes Harmalas and some people have faster CYP2D6 which metabolizes the Harmalas faster and speeds up the timeframe for gut MAO-A inhibition, so could be 10 minutes, 20 minutes, 30 minutes, 45 minutes, depending on CYP2D6 activity, but for me seems consistently to be an hour in for peak gut MAO-A inhibition as DMT is consistently fully orally activated when consumed at that time) you take enough Tryptophan with enough P5P B6 which is used as the co-factor for AADC/DOPA Decarboxylase which decarboxylates Tryptophan to Tryptamine in the gut, along with Methylcobalamin B12 (and possibly Methylfolate B9) for Methionine Synthase activity which recycles Homocysteine back into Methionine which then turns into SAM which is used by INMT to methylate the Tryptamine to NMT/DMT.

So basically, MAO-A inhibition in the gut, Tryptophan+B6+B12 (possibly with Folate) taken during active gut MAO-A inhibition = endogenous Tryptamine, NMT and DMT. It works, it's noticeable, you will get identical effects to exogenous NMT and DMT which you will no doubt pick up on if you're familiar enough with NMT and DMT and their effects.

Again, it's not fully immersive but it's noticeable/strong enough that it warrants further investigation/exploration, because at this point the question only becomes, how much endogenous Tryptamines can we produce on demand this way? A further question would be if we could utilize any sort of techniques/methods like breathwork or darkness to increase the amount of endogenous Tryptamines after inducing their synthesis via the B's and Tryptophan on top of MAO-A inhibition, which because INMT is present in the lungs, it imo stands to reason that breathwork could maybe influence it's activity especially with enough SAM and Tryptamine substrate, but what i've experienced personally comes just as-is, nothing else needed, you just take the Tryptophan and B's and it works.

But yeah doing this i've experienced the same effects/feelings i get from exogenous NMT and DMT, so it's definitely happening to some moderate extent i'd say, kinda on the milder side but definitely not mild, hence why i say moderate.

 

[Sabnock1990]

Also, keep in mind that the degree of MAO-A inhibition can also likely play a role, so for example if i take 2 grams of Rue seed, yeah gut MAO-A is inhibited to some degree but not fully, while if i take 4 grams of Rue the gut's MAO-A inhibition is stronger/fuller, and if i take 4 grams of Rue consecutively for nights in a row the gut MAO-A inhibition will get a bit fuller until gut MAO-A is as fully inhibited as possible, and as such, the oral activation of DMT (as well as Tryptamine and NMT), as well as the cerebral potentiation thereof, will be greater with heavier Harmala dosages compared to lighter dosages.

So, if one is afraid of a little nausea and vomiting and sticks to a lower Harmala dosage, just like with the DMT, some of the Tryptamine/NMT/DMT can be inactivated by uninhibited MAO-A, so for the most bang for your buck so to speak, you'd want full MAO-A inhibition from a full Harmala dosage, even though lighter dosages can work too as they do still provide some MAO-A inhibition, but to get the fullest effect possible, ideally you'll want full gut MAO-A inhibition, which is likely to come with some nausea or vomiting unless one is either accustomed to the Harmalas via daily consumption which makes all the side-effects go away including nausea/vomiting, or if they use an MAOI like Moclobemide for example.

So just remember, MAO-A inhibition, plus Tryptophan, plus B6, plus B12, and you should get some promising results.

 

[Sabnock1990]

And yes, if anybody else has tried this successfully, please comment, because i can't believe i'm the only person who has done this lol.

 

[Sabnock1990]

And also remember, if you take this stuff and you feel just the Tryptamine (but not NMT/DMT), that means you have undermethylation likely due to lack of SAM, because you can get Tryptamine from Tryptophan just fine by taking the Tryptophan with B6, and so with gut MAO-A inhibited, the Tryptamine will become orally active, but if you're lacking in SAM/methylation you will only feel Tryptamine, which best i can describe it feels like non-methylated NMT/DMT, while NMT/DMT feel like methylated Tryptamine, and so if you only feel Tryptamine, and then immediately take some Methylcobalamin B12, you will feel a direct increase in SAM levels which then methylates the Tryptamine to NMT and DMT, so Methylcobalamin B12 is absolutely necessary, and too much Folate can use up too much B12 and one may not even need the Methylfolate/Folate in the mix but it's worth having nearby just in case.