Entheogenic Cacao?

[lsDxMdmaddicThc]

There is an online vendor selling raw, un-hybridized cacao nibs.
Cacao was used along with Psilocybin Mushrooms, and on its own as an entheogen in South American cultures.

Does anyone have experience with potent Cacao?

I am drinking a cup of coffee infused with 1 tbsp. of Hershey's Special Dark 100% Cacao Powder.

It is more positive and mood lifting than usual!

I'm interested in the possible uses of potent Cacao, visionary, Medicinal, Anti-depressant, admixture, etc.

 

[jamie]

The reality is that there probly is no raw cacao going around, for reasons I wont get into right now..just know that the raw thing seems to be a marketing ploy.

The Mayans and others who use cacao as a sacred plant, always roast it anyway. Ive been told by someone else who worked with a cacao "shaman" in Equador I think, that it is better when roasted anyway.

Getting an heirloom strain is more important than getting it raw I think.

 

[obliguhl]

Well, I mainly use a hybrid strain and it is potent. So that also doesn't seem to say much. Some strains simply appear to have a higher alkaloid content...some taste better. Have you looked up all the other cacao threads on here ?

 

[jamie]

http://www.matrixmasters.net/salon/category/jonathan-ott/

 

[Cognitive Heart]

I use raw cacao most mornings as a daily routine by just chewing it all up, or mixing it with fruits, and it certainly does improve my mood, energy and outlook for the day.

With the raw material, one will absorb not only the dense nutrients (which may be reduced with roasting, or possibly enhanced), but also the naturally occurring theobromine and theophylline, which are both similar to caffine. Both those compounds work synergistically as mild stimulants and enhancers. Raw cacao does not contain caffine. However, raw cacao also contains the lipid anandamide (the feel good chemical) as well as phenylethylamines, which helps keep us alert etc. Perhaps there are some other compounds within cacao I am missing that may enhance our day to day state.. such as MAO compounds.

With that said, I have noticed that raw cacao does in some way, shape or form, enhance the entheogenic state. Probably because of its diverse properties. :thumb_up:

 

[Bancopuma]

One can obtain raw, sun dried cocoa beans. But yes most cocoa powder or products isn't technically "raw" but has been heat treated, as this is required to separate the cocoa solids from the cocoa butter. Some substances such as phenylethylamine may be destroyed by this heating, so there may be differences in biochemical composition to actual raw cocoa and that which has been heat treated. Cocoa in any form though is great, if it hasn't been processed much, and I have it in a smoothie most days.

A PDF book is attached that may be of interest to some.

 

[jamie]

"Raw cacao does not contain caffine."

Source?

I am still going to question the reality of any of you even having true raw cacao outside of south/central america. It is all fermented. I started a business before making "raw" chocolate..what I eventually found out is that the claims of raw cacao seem to be dubious. Almost none of it is certified to be raw at all...and even the processes used in the "raw" cacao involve heating and fermentation.

I got 20 kilos of the only stuff I could find that was actually certified raw from Equador through essential living foods...still have half of it and I am not sure it's even raw...its still bee fermented and processed even through it's whole beans.

I have experimented extensively with all sorts of cacao, and never found the stuff labled raw to have any extra beneficial qualities over the the stuff that is cooked. I heat the beans I have all the time in boiling water and eating them as is offers nothing extra over heating.

There is a lot of claims about raw cacao out there, and I would like to just see some actual validation for any of them...rather than the same stuff repeated over and over.

 

[Cognitive Heart]

The cacao I purchase is sustainably grown, harvested and certified, with commitment in supporting farmers who are dedicated to fair agriculture. The company goes by 'Organic Traditions.'

More than likely the product is minimally processed to give exactly what the buyer wants, raw cacao. No, I've never actually had the real cacao bean in C or SA, so I don't know what that would be like. However, I do know what caffine feels like, and I've never had that stimulation from eating the raw cacao I purchase.

Current source:http://realrawfood.com/cacao-info

 

[obliguhl]

Cacao can contain caffeeine, and some of the actives might get destroyed by fermentation, and some might increase. Please refer to this thread for academic sources.

 

[downwardsfromzero]

I've obtained true raw, unfermented cacao beans from a supplier in Germany; they were very hard on the guts! Methinks the fermentation is done routinely for a reason... The fermented but otherwise identical beans from the same source were far more palatable. If anything, the fermentation frees up nutrients and reduces levels of, e.g., phytates (obviously a full analysis would be more definitive than my anecdotal claims here but, sheesh...)

Cacao also contains 4,6-dihydroxy-2-methyltetrahydroisoquinoline, longimammidine (8-hydroxy-2-methyltetrahydroisoquinoline) and salsolinol (6,7-dihydroxy-1-methyltetrahydroisoquinoline). Refs: Lloydia 41, 130 (1978); J. Agric. & Food Chem 24, 900 (1976)

I have no idea about the pharmacology of these compounds and haven't looked up the references yet so their concentrations might be insignificant. But still, they're the kind of compounds that might well do something...

 

[downwardsfromzero]

And another thing, I know several people who on occasion work with cacao. They have access to what is termed "ceremonial cacao". I know nothing of its providence. It comes in large blocks; the usual dose is 42 g (2½ oz.), dispersed in hot water, and at that level is decidedly euphoric and empathogenic. There's none of the jitteriness that, say, a high dose of coffee might bring.

 

[HumbleTraveler]

One thing that needs to be mentioned here, Im sure your Hersheys Special dark cacao is primarily saw dust mixed with some coal. Just because it's Hersheys. They dont exactly care about providing folks with top shelf product.

 

[obliguhl]

You can order this ceremonial cacao yourself if you want. Keith not only sells the mentioned Blocks (Cacao Liquor) but also beans. I myself had not so great experiences with it, as it made me feel quite ill. Perhaps the dose was too high.


Does the german vendor you're talking about start with n and ends with x ?

obviously a full analysis would be more definitive than my anecdotal claims here but, sheesh...

There have been, just take a look at the thread i posted for more information.

 

[jamie]

strong doses of cacao can def make you sick. I have vomited before from too much of it, and had mild closed eye visuals of scenes.

 

[Cognitive Heart]

Some more interesting information regarding topic:All about Chocolate -- no Caffeine It is unconvincing to me that the cacao bean contains caffine.

(The Merck Index, 12th Edition says that a very small amount of Caffeine is found in the hulls of of the Cacao seeds, the hulls are discarded before processing.)

 

[obliguhl]

I know jamie, but something about that particular strain doesn't agree with me.

It is unconvincing to me that the cacao bean contains caffine.

Well, if you believe "mrk's chocolate site" over an article published in the journal of food chemistry (they've explicitly used theobromine, theophylline and caffeeine standards so they certainly did not "confuse" anything....) so be it.

 

[joedirt]

strong doses of cacao can def make you sick. I have vomited before from too much of it, and had mild closed eye visuals of scenes.

Yep I have one eat an extremely small dose of mescaline...50mg. Then hung out with wife and a friend and had a chocolate fest with a lot of dark chocolate 80% and up..as well as a bag of organic nibs from Whole Foods... The nibs were disgusting, but surprisingly we eat a shit load of them. Later than evening...oh 8 hours after the 50mgs of mescaline I laid down in bed with my wife and was shocked to see full closed eye visuals morphing and undulating... It certainly wasn't the 50mg of mescaline extract from 8 hours or so earlier causing them... at least not all by itself.

 

[downwardsfromzero]

You can order this ceremonial cacao yourself if you want. Keith not only sells the mentioned Blocks (Cacao Liquor) but also beans. I myself had not so great experiences with it, as it made me feel quite ill. Perhaps the dose was too high.


Does the german vendor you're talking about start with n and ends with x ?

No idea, she just has a market stall where I go sometimes...

As far as nausea and vomiting goes, that's hardly surprising if you're eating too much of just about anything. A friend really overdid it not so long ago and had some real problems for a while (suggesting liver/digestive malfunction) but fortunately is ok now.

Couldn't find anything in your link (obliguhl) about those isoquinolines I mentioned.

And who is Keith?